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Old September 10, 2000, 10:29 AM   #1
The Observer
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We always mentioned in any topic about self defense using our CCW's, but how determined each and every one of us to really use it in self defense. Are we not having second thought that if we are going to use it as a primary weapon in self defense then we may be in big trouble (not only criminaly liable but civily liable too. That if ever we have used another weapon not the gun then we might be in less trouble (be it the encounter with a BG was consummated or not). For sure a CCW cannot be of big help enough to engage band of BG's.

We keep talking BG's but how many CCW holders really have used their gun in self defense. Even LEO's can seldom use their guns in self defense or very rare they use it a real situation shooting with BG's. As it was said, the gun stays more in the holster rather of the user rather than being actually used to BG's. For me, a gun nowadays is commonly use for shooting and for collections only. Perhaps it adds the macho looking of a man if he has one.

Just an observation only.
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Old September 10, 2000, 05:42 PM   #2
LASur5r
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Observer,
I don't know where you live, but here in soCal, I can take you places where you think it looks perfectly safe but a violent encounter can occur in a heartbeat. Most violent encounters do if you don't see the signs.
I'm not even talking about gang areas, etc..etc..
For example, I went to a seminar of code enforcement folks right across the street from Disneyland. We were reasonably well dressed and as is my wont, i hung around after the seminar to catch up with other professionals in my field and try to learn new developments in our field.(You know..trade war stories, etc..,etc..)
So I walked out at a little after four to retrieve my car, the host city folks were a couple of steps behind me, when I was approached by a young man who made like he was selling ties...Figuring me for an easy mark, he made an aggressive pitch, but I already spotted the bulge under his jacket. That's right, he was wearing a suit jacket over a suspicious bulge.
We are not armed for our work, so I had to go to unarmed self-defense mode, I got close to him. I believe he wanted me to take out my wallet to make a purchase then he would have whipped out his gun to take everything.
The BG got louder and louder as I got quieter and quieter and smiled at him. Finally, he lost his temper and reached under his jacket.
Just as I started to move to a trapping motion, one of buds from the host city guys yelled," Watch it, that guy's got a bench warrant out for him!"
I yelled, "Gun!" and ducked for cover. Remember I wasn't armed.
Anaheim's folks work closely with their local LEO's and they train with the LEO's so I watched a smooth team operation.
The BG turned to face 4 of the good guys and jammed his gun back into his waistband. One of the guys already was on a walkie talkie calling the local PD. Everyone went to cover so I took the hint and hunkered down. The ones just coming out the door ducked back into the building and soon I saw one of the good guys head out the side door to jump into a car that looked exactly as their local Pd units.
The BG was running at this point, only to be cut off by the radio unit and three police units screaming down the main street to catch the BG.
Observer? Remember, a gun is only a tool. It is not the end all to beat all, but it gives you more options and probably a better chance to protect your life.
The trouble is, when the SHTF, and you picked the option to use your gun to save someone's life ,are you committed to pulling the trigger?
If you are strongly doubtful, then you might rethink your options. I know people who were not willing to pull the trigger and have either sold their guns or have been shot because they hesistated too long, or have to live with the tragedy that occurred because the BG didn't care and pulled his/her trigger.
I know a bunch of people that have pulled the trigger and have had to live with the aftermath. That is normal...but they are alive to contemplate what happened and so are the ones they saved.
I also know many more people who have had to show their guns or indicate that they have a gun and were not afraid to use it and the BG's left.
Don't count on it, though...I've had BG's strut up to me and verball challenge me to shoot them even though they saw that I had a gun. That is why I don't brandish or bluff. When I draw my gun, it's to protect a life.
Remember, that doesn't mean you have to shoot..you still have options.
Anyway, Good luck...one of these days I'd like to live in a community that's as peaceful as yours.
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Old September 10, 2000, 07:01 PM   #3
LASur5r
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Observer,
If you want to try the other option...
Stand by.

How do you like leaving the fate of your future in the hands of a scuzz?

You ever look down the barrel of a gun with a BG holding it on you, and he is high on drugs...making him unpredictable?

Do you think the BG's play by civilized rules? If they did, then why are they holding a gun on you?

Do you think the BG cares about your life?

Let's say you give it up...everything? Money...keys to the car...your wife...your wallet.

True story. A good friend of mine had her gutless boyfriend do that to her. The BG had held her boyfriend up by gunpoint in the parking lot behind the local bowling alley. Got the money, etc...asked if he knew anyone else who had money. Told the boyfriend to send the person out or he would stalk him and shoot him.
Her boyfriend went into the bowling alley pass the security guards (armed), past the pay phones, pass a couple LEO's responding to a call in the bowling alley, and told her that someone was waiting outside to see her.
Trusting her boyfriend, she went out to be robbed, attempted rape...she had more b*#*s then her boyfriend..she fought off the BG, the BG stole her car and she got the shell back two weeks later.
She stuck with that boyfriend for a couple months until she could see clearly, then dumped him to marry a guy...that oddly enough, likes to collect guns.

So you may be willing to just turn your fate over to someone who is not an upstanding pillar of the community...I am not!
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Old September 10, 2000, 07:50 PM   #4
LiquidTension
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Something my father (as well as other board members) frequently says comes to mind...better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Old September 11, 2000, 05:07 AM   #5
mk86fcc
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I determined a long time ago that I will probably go through my entire life and never need my gun. However, if I'm ever proved wrong, these two things will likely be true: I will need it very quickly, and I will need it very badly. Hence, I carry nearly always.

Slightly of topic, but here's a theory I have, for which I have absolutely no evidence but common sense. It's been shown that critters read the "body language" of potenetial victims and tend to steer clear of those with an alert, self-confident attitude. Seems to me that those of us that carry, whether we realize it or not, probably display those traits, mayhaps avoiding trouble without any conscious effort on our part. Then again, maybe I don't know what I'm talkin' about...

------------------
"...and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
Luke 22:36
"An armed society is a polite society."
Robert Heinlein
"Power corrupts. Absolute power - is kinda cool!"
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Old September 11, 2000, 07:20 AM   #6
David Scott
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I have fire insurance but my house has never burned down. I have bad guy insurance but I've never had to fire it at one. I did point it, once, at a guy trying to break in a window, and he split. If he had come through the window I would have fired.

The CCW is not used to "engage" anybody -- it is used to "disengage" from a bad situation. I realize that a pack of 20 BGs with guns is going to take me down, but the odds are that there will not be that many. If I can just put out enough suppressing fire to get away I'm happy. Now that my wife is getting her CCW License, we will be able to cover each other's backs in a bad situation, one of us leading the way out of the area while the other covers against pursuit.

As for worries about legal liability, it's essential that anyone who's going to own a gun understand the laws in their state. I'm lucky to live in a state (Florida) that looks kindly on citizens' rights to self-defense. A good shoot here usually doesn't get as far as a grand jury.

Your observation about "macho looks" is stereotypical pop-psych claptrap, the kind of thing tossed about by antis who want us to believe that men carry guns as penis substitutes because they feel sexually inadequate. Pure horse hockey. I grant that a small minority of a$$holes have guns to look tough, but they generally don't bother with CCW licenses because it looks even tougher to defy the law. To the vast majority, guns are simply the right tool for the job of self-defense.

I compliment you on the subtlety of your troll. Much smoother than the usual anti rant.
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Old September 11, 2000, 12:28 PM   #7
dragontooth73
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i was walking away from my ex fiancee's house one night after having dinner with her family. she escorted me about 40 yards from where she lived, we kissed goodnight, and i went home (this was in japan, and i'm kind of an old-fashioned guy). well she waves me off, turns around and some BG comes out of the bushes ... he'd waited for me to leave and be well out of range. he jumped her RIGHT IN FRONT OF HER HOUSE and tried to rape her. she fought him off during the attack and escape. it got reported etc etc ... she went through some serious trauma, to say the least.

so i patrolled the area on my own with just a folding knife (remember this is japan so no guns) for a month. i found the BG - and i know it was him coz who else would look at me, a regular fixture in the neighborhood at 10 in the evening, totally unprovoked turn around, bolt and run from a distance of 60 yards? - i chased him hard, ended up losing him but the BG never showed up again. this happened several years ago.

whenever possible i carry a weapon - by needs since i travel quite a bit it's reduced to folding knives and knuckledusters. mind you, i am a calm, happy-go-lucky person and don't believe in starting bad fights but hell, if my gf was in trouble (and she is OFTEN accosted in SoCal) i'll use anything and everything i can get my hands on. liabilties? i'm obviously the victim of a criminal act if i have to resort to such measures, and i'm the one also getting my civil rights violated? hello? hello? in fact i'm debating moving my permanent residence from HI to CA because of the gun "laws".

Observer, i don't know where you live either but i'm going to quote you twice:

- 30 Aug 2000 on http://www.thefiringline.com:8080/fo...threadid=44921
"Four to five targets I think is not that hard to engage if just aremed with psitols also. My principle is, I better kill this BG's and explain in court later on, rather then I am the victim. that is why I have my carry weapon to defend my life and property. That is why carrying weapon is not just fo the sake of carrying it thinking that there is only one BG you will engage just in case."

- 10 Sep 2000 on this very thread:
"For sure a CCW cannot be of big help enough to engage band of BG's (...) For me, a gun nowadays is commonly use for shooting and for collections only. Perhaps it adds the macho looking of a man if he has one."

kindly put your $$$ where your mouth is, and either commit to defending your life, property, and loved ones, or keep unproven, unfounded generalizations to yourself and avoid the public disgrace associated with being a hypocrite.

LASur5r, David Scott, and the others are right. i can only DREAM that one day i will live in a society that fully honors the right to human dignity and self-defense. i still have a lot to learn from TFLers who are more experienced than i. hypocrisy is something i don't need to emulate.

[This message has been edited by dragontooth73 (edited September 11, 2000).]
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Old September 11, 2000, 01:43 PM   #8
M1911
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I never have used my gun for self defense. And I hope and pray that I never will have to. Given where and how I live, there's a pretty good chance that my prayers will be answered.

That said, if some scumbag wants to rape my wife, you're darn right I'll pull the trigger.

Having taken LFI-1 and LFI-2, I'm well aware of the liabilities. I won't use my gun to protect my car or other property -- that's what insurance is for. But I will use it defend myself and my wife from threats of death or grave bodily injury.

Jared
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Old September 12, 2000, 06:08 AM   #9
The Observer
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Thanks to all your views: As others said, I come here in TFL to learn also and hear opinions. I am trying to know others reactions in certain cases especially in self defense using our CCW's. In that case some of my actions might be corrected or maybe I have done something that might have semblance to all your reasoning.

I've been in several actual situations already where I brawled, exchange of stabbing, and almost used my CCW's but thanks God I haven't used yet for I have still controlled my temper and able to use other options. My reason is, if there is still other way to escape a death threat or we think we can employ other means (not the CCW) I am still using it). Perhaps I did not use yet because of my knowhow in martial arts.

It is true, I will not hesitate to use my CCW for the protection of my life, my family and property (as I have posted in other topics)if there is enough grounds to do it if all the other options available have been employed, depending on the situation. For instance, if there is break-in in my house by armed man, be it 1,2 or more, then I will not hesitate, (that must be done inside my house or in my secured yard, or a group of BG who are determined to kill me then I have too.
I have seen, that even in some traffic altercations there were shoot-out, even among Leos and other government agents (there is always the presence of conflicts and sometimes it resort to shooting each other.

Again, thanks to all your comments.

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Old September 12, 2000, 10:37 AM   #10
KaMaKaZe
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If I go throughthe trouble of carrying it, you best believe I'll use it.

------------------
God, Guns and Guts made this country a great country!

oberkommando sez:
"We lost the first and third and now they are after the Second!(no pun intended)"
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Old September 12, 2000, 10:40 AM   #11
LASur5r
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Observer,
I'm sorry if I came on too strong...it seems that you were looking at your options before having to pull the trigger. Judging from the last post.
I am glad to hear from another M.A. who has real world experience.
You know, for close to three decades, I have been training and searching for the answer as you have. I have only signed up on TFL for a few months and I have only taken interest in handguns for a little while, although I bought my first handgun in 1970.
That is why I joined the other TFL'ers, I am trying to learn more from those of like mind.
I know some of the people on the board think that I am crazy for not going to gun option first, but unarmed defense gives you so many more options before you have to go to gun.( Look at some of my posts...LASur5r and you can see some of the situations that I wrote about)
My main concern with going to gun as first option, is if the scene plays out...that bullet leaving the barrel should be terminal.
The hard part is many folks with an unarmed M.A. option has to be sharp enough to "read" the situation and use the appropriate response and of course has to be capable of executing their technique, and if not then they have to be flexible enough to switch to another technique or to disengage and go to plan B.
Good to see that you came out of each encounter okay. When you get a chance, please write about those times and what you did to survive.
I'm always ready to learn other options.

A gun is only another tool in your option box.
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Old September 12, 2000, 01:07 PM   #12
Ledbetter
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Greetings,

I think many here will agree that part of the responsibility of carrying a gun (or other defensive weapon) is the determination not to use it except "in the gravest extreme." Another part of the responsibility of self-defense is being trained to recognize that moment and react quickly and appropriately. Questions of legalities and action threshholds are best resolved in our minds long before the event itself.

Regards to all,

Ledbetter
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Old September 12, 2000, 01:22 PM   #13
dragontooth73
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my apologies too, Observer. i've been in a number of situations i would never have liked to be in. since i travel overseas a lot in a decidedly non-military capacity, i've only had knuckledusters and keychains to rely on. most of my aikido training tends to be non-applicable to the assualts i've had to endure from various nutcases. as such, i've learned to rely on *trained instinct* and my short range of experience in my still limited years of life.

there are instances where if i'd had a CCW it would NOT have improved the situation at all. such as when the police arrive, find me and the BGs, then sort out who is responsible for what ... conversely, i've had people dear to me assualted, raped, and worse. i've also had several situations where i've been tailed by multiple BGs with a VERY unhealthy interest in my date ... when it comes down to the wire, i'd rather have the best protection possible and end the threat immediately.

i think LASur5r is right: draw and fire doesn't have to be the first option. heck, i haven't even had the luxury of a CCW in the places i've lived and traveled and still come out more or less alive. Observer, i'm sorry that your store got robbed and that you've been in your fair share of scrapes. but if i do choose to carry a CCW, i won't do it coz i want to look *macho*. i'll do it coz i don't want my loved ones to endure rape and murder. i judiciously avoid fights, don't go after people in revenge, and abide by the law (well maybe except for those concerning traffic) ... i'm sure a lot of TFLers feel the same way. as LASur5r said, a gun is only another tool; a trained M.A. has more options. but given multiple BGs, where i have to worry about what will happen to my gf in the minutes during the fight, i want it all to end fast. if that means i have to carry a CCW for years and years to be prepared for the contingency, so be it.

sorry about the rant, everyone. life in SoCal looks mighty attractive by the way ...
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Old September 13, 2000, 09:33 AM   #14
The Observer
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All your apologies has been accepted before the moment you have asked (and no need for an apology brothers. In fact, if co-TFL'ers have a strong rebuttal to my opinion, that may only show that they are reading between lines. Other thing, writing things to be understood very well is not that easy (not all readers can fully understand what I mean for I might not have explained well nor choice the appropriate wordings to impart my message.

Ledbetter said "I think many here will agree that part of the responsibility of carrying a gun (or other defensive weapon) is the determination not to use it except "in the gravest extreme." That is one thing I want to emphasize. People who has the opportunity to have a CCW can be considered well disciplined by all means, has all the proper training abut their pistols (not that they just purchase it and kept in their closet - or in their car) and they will only draw it when there is great danger they might perceived from goblins.

A situation I can relay, it just happened three days ago. I had 3 customers at the ages of 25 or 26 maybe. They came to make trouble in my shop to asked things that I cannot provide. To sum up, the BGs said, why are you having this kind of business if you don't have this and that. My face turns to red and I want to give him a straight blow and a full round house kick as we are facing each other but then I have many customers to attend. The Bg keeps talking unpalatable words but I am only waiting them to kick or bang my Glass door so that I have reason to hurt them using my empty hands only. After a heated arguments I told them to get out and they did but they stayed in their vehicle for a while. Instead that I will draw my pistol it just remains in my holster for I believe that I can still tackle it. Or if they just return back inside from their car holding big knives or long steel pipe like in (for stick fighting)then I have reason to show them I have also a pistol but I will not point at them nor shoot them yet(I will only point at someone if I have decided to shoot). So, by this way - I can still control myself not to shoot them for there is still other options. the first option is, I told them to leave with my commanding voice and showing them that I am not scared and I am determined to fight back (I really mean it). I did not draw my gun yet for they did not get something inside their car but they show a threat to me by not leaving immediately, I waited them inside my shop but they remain outside then leave after a few minutes.

Determination and not being afraid of any consequence is the thing I know to do in any conflict. But of course (we don't just put ourselves into fire). We have love ones and other things to attend but we have one life to protect in any moment of conflict.

Sometimes, I believe that if a person has a real training and undergone somekind of physical punishment (like military training, member to any Brotherhood that has hazing, studied any kind of martial arts and experienced to go with idiots and bastard and the guy turned to be good) - then I think he is the kind of person not easily frightened by just street gangster if just a handful of them. For me, if just 5 BG trying to harm me openly (if they did not surprise me, I think I can handle the situation). My craziest belief is, a person is not made of steel, the components is a soft tissues and easily ruptured.

Talk to you more onmartial arts in other post.

Thanks to all,

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