The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old May 11, 2011, 11:46 PM   #176
Ringolevio
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 30, 2011
Location: Where the Kaw meets the Mighty Mo
Posts: 241
Kudos to Lawnboy

Lawnboy, I just have to say that you make a lot of sense. Your arguments are cogent and informed by logic and by thinking through all the angles of an issue. And you call 'em as you see 'em.

You're not the only one here about which that can be said.

But I have to particularly admire your patience in continuing to try to reach, with a logical, cogent argument, someone who will probably never "get it", and who chooses to take it personally.

I couldn't begin to muster that kind of patience. You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!
Ringolevio is offline  
Old May 12, 2011, 12:04 AM   #177
WhiskeyTango
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 2, 2011
Location: Northglenn, CO
Posts: 107
Quote:
Civilians who OC in places where OC is abnormal are attention hogs (again, my opinion). I judge them the exact same way I judge people with unnaturally colored hair, multiple piercings, excessive tattoos, neon colored cars and other "hey look at me" displays.

I support the right to OC. I also support discretion. Legal and right are not the same thing. The law decides legal. I decide right. And so do you.
I respect your opinion, as I too, judge excessive tattoo's ( though I have several) piercings, hair, dress and the like, but I'll ask you the same question I asked some posts' back. What am I supposed to do? I can't afford to get my CCW back right now, my wife is sick and we have bills to pay. A CCW cost almost $400 here in Colorado, and I just plain can't do it. So once again, should I not be allowed to protect myself just because I'm in a urban/suburban environment? I make sound judgment calls, like not carrying in chucky cheeses, as I stated before, and when I can't I have a hand built skinner in a kydex sheath on my belt, but am I supposed to carry a knife instead of a gun all the time because I can't afford to pay the ridiculous fees involved in obtaining a permit to carry a gun I should already be allowed to carry anyway? I understand you painting OCer's as attention hogs, undoubtedly most are, but some of us are just protecting ourselves in a messed up crazy world anyway we can.
__________________
"When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny" -Thomas Jefferson

Member-RMGO, Member-NRA, NRA Certified RSO
WhiskeyTango is offline  
Old May 12, 2011, 04:30 AM   #178
Dashunde
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 22, 2004
Posts: 1,687
Quote:
Originally Posted by WiskeyTango
you can't OC at an Olive Garden because they serve alcohol at the bar, you can't CC there for the same reason.
In MO you can carry in any "bona fide restaurant open to the general public having dining facilities for not less than fifty persons and that receives at least fifty-one percent of its gross annual income from the dining facilities by the sale of food."

We're good to go in a resturant/bar, and so are people in Colorado according to this.
Your Colorado CC permit fees should be $105.

Last edited by Dashunde; May 12, 2011 at 04:47 AM.
Dashunde is offline  
Old May 12, 2011, 05:59 AM   #179
dburkhead
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 10, 2008
Posts: 116
Quote:
Further up in this thread, or possibly in another thread I gave my reasons for disliking OC in places where OC is not common. Basically these echo the thoughts of those that say "you're scaring people", or "you're giving ammo to the rabid anti's" and the "you're giving up tactial advantage" arguments. There are others too but that covers several bases. I've discussed motives with others before. I'm sorry, but I remain convinced that OC in a non standard OC area is a bad idea. I'm not going to try to stop anyone, except by argument in places like this. Which is the proper forum. I think they are doing more harm than good.
That you are convinced of this stuff has nothing to do with the motives of others. That someone disagrees about these issues does not make them a "poser or wannabe." Nor does it make them an "attention hog."

It is that to which I have objected, not that you disagree on the other items.

You're doing the same thing the antis do when they claim that you're a wannabe "rambo" for carrying at all.
__________________
The award winning fantasy series "Heroes in Hell" returns this July with the new collection "Lawyers in Hell."
http://heroesinhell.wordpress.com/
Including a new story by David L. Burkhead
dburkhead is offline  
Old May 12, 2011, 06:06 AM   #180
dburkhead
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 10, 2008
Posts: 116
Quote:
State your own opinions on the subject, stop toiling around with other peoples words without any additional point to make.
Refuting nonsense "points" ("they'll target you for the gun" Yeah, it may happen, but available evidence indicates it's so rare as to be a non-issue) is making a point.

Quote:
I think OC is silly in a suburban/urban environment, is tactically dumbfounding and fails all critical self-defense scrutiny as far as I'm concerned.
And I think your statement above does not hold up to actual evidence. The "scrutiny" is mainly repetition of a bunch of assumptions, asserted but not actually supported by evidence.
__________________
The award winning fantasy series "Heroes in Hell" returns this July with the new collection "Lawyers in Hell."
http://heroesinhell.wordpress.com/
Including a new story by David L. Burkhead
dburkhead is offline  
Old May 12, 2011, 06:11 AM   #181
dburkhead
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 10, 2008
Posts: 116
Quote:
But I have to particularly admire your patience in continuing to try to reach, with a logical, cogent argument, someone who will probably never "get it", and who chooses to take it personally.
I'd like to say that this is the first time that I've seen proof by repeated assertion and personal opinions masquerading as evidence called "logical, cogent argument." I'd like to say it, but that would be wrong.

And when someone calls everyone who disagrees with him a "poser," a "wannabe," and an "attention hog" what's not to take personally?

Oh, yes, we can also add name calling as something being put forward as "logical, cogent argument."

Well, whatever works for you.
__________________
The award winning fantasy series "Heroes in Hell" returns this July with the new collection "Lawyers in Hell."
http://heroesinhell.wordpress.com/
Including a new story by David L. Burkhead
dburkhead is offline  
Old May 12, 2011, 06:16 AM   #182
dean1818
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2009
Location: Frisco Texas
Posts: 597
Amen Brother!

"It should be done in a polite manner, in the right environment, with the right motives.
And dont fling any more crap about who am I to say whats polite, where is the right environment and who picks the motives - We're all American's with the same basic standards of decency and common sense - find a better argument, to pick that nit puts you on the fringe.

OC is not a public enlightenment tool, the gun is the tool, its your tool to defend yourself with, if you think showing it off will sway people into thinking its all A-OK then your probably the tool.

I think OC is silly in a suburban/urban environment, is tactically dumbfounding and fails all critical self-defense scrutiny as far as I'm concerned.
I can imagine many reasons to OC including hiking, riding, working, sweating, or patrolling just to name a few... but none of them involve going out to dinner or to a kids recital"
__________________
An imperfect servant of my Lord and Saviour, Jesus

Buying American made, wherever I still can
dean1818 is offline  
Old May 12, 2011, 07:25 AM   #183
Eghad
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 28, 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 6,231
I would not open carry because if I am in a place where someone is going to rob it with a firearm and sees me with a gun I just became a priority target. On the other hand the guy may decide to leave. Some of the criminals today are pretty bold folks so if the guy decided to stay I would be a priority target and it would nullify any advantage I might have if he does not know who is carrying a concealed weapon.
__________________
Have a nice day at the range

NRA Life Member
Eghad is offline  
Old May 12, 2011, 07:27 AM   #184
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
Reiterating an earlier point: I generally have no use for Open Carry. I have even less for laws that make OC illegal. Call me a Libertarian, but I'd really prefer the government do a lot less telling people what to do, in every facet of life.
MLeake is offline  
Old May 12, 2011, 08:11 AM   #185
LordTio3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 5, 2010
Location: Bloomington, Indiana
Posts: 850
Okay... there is a very convoluted argument going on here between dburkhead and lawnboy. I hesitate to "take a side" but would like to offer maybe some new perspective. From what I've read, you both believe the same thing: Open Carry by self-indulgent weiners in inappropriate and intentionally provocative areas is a bad thing. Responsible gun owners who sometimes Open Carry due to convenience, time constraints, or comfort in an appropriate environment are just fine, as long as you accept that you may have to deal (patiently and politely) with the occasional inquiry about the legality of your actions from gun-rights-ignorant civillians.

I think we can all agree on this.

The argument comes when dburkhead took offense to lawnboy's (admittedly brash) generalization about those self-indulgent weiners in a fashion reminiscent of the Supreme Court's: "I know it when I see it." The offense that was taken is the root of the argument. You agree on the central issue. I have to lean more toward lawnboy for the simple fact that he seems more prone to calm, self-representative introspection and checks his emotion at the door. Emotion and reason aren't allies. I think if the "offended" tone were dropped, we can all just sit and agree about what we agree about...

#1 Open Carrier...


D-Bags? Probably. Looking for attention? Most likely. Most likely response to inquiries about why he's carrying a gun? "It's legal! I have a permit! Accomodate me or suffer penalty of LAW!"

We can agree that these suck; and certainly aren't who we'd like representing our community as a whole.

#2 Open Carrier...


Outside at a barbecue. Nice weapon in a nice holster. I'm not worried about any of these guys. Seems appropriate. Also hiking, camping, hunting, going shopping for ammo/supplies/food beforehand.

Personally, I feel that the greatest benefit that the legalization of open carry has, is specifically erasing the discretionary lines of "brandishing" laws and cases. As long as the gun doesn't leave the holster, it's not brandishing. No matter if you slipped and exposed it or not. No more horror stories about reaching for something on the Wal-Mart shelf and having the cops called.

And argue as you will about tactics, statistics, and practicality of open carry; but open carriers and open carry advocates have done a whole heck of a lot for all of our gun rights over the last several years in terms of getting the numbers, being relevant and present, and getting the message out in a respectful manner (mostly). The guys over at OpenCarry.org are awesome.

~LT
__________________
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ- Greek:"Come and take them..." Meaning: Here we peaceably stand as armed and free men, willing to defend that peace, and ready to make war upon anyone who threatens that freedom.
LordTio3 is offline  
Old May 12, 2011, 11:50 AM   #186
C0untZer0
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2011
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,555
I am worried about the proposed federal legislation that is going to make having a mullet a mandatory prerequisite for OC.
C0untZer0 is offline  
Old May 12, 2011, 12:08 PM   #187
Capt Charlie
Staff
 
Join Date: March 24, 2005
Location: Steubenville, OH
Posts: 4,304
OC is a subject that's been beat to death here over the years, and for whatever reason, almost all of them descended into bickering and name-calling.

This one's no exception, and at 186 posts, it's outlived its usefulness anyhow.

Closed, but my thanks to those of you that tried to keep this civil and on target.
__________________
TFL Members are ambassadors to the world for firearm owners. What kind of ambassador does your post make you?

I train in earnest, to do the things that I pray in earnest, I'll never have to do.

--Capt. Charlie
Capt Charlie is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:57 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.10410 seconds with 7 queries