The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old April 25, 2011, 06:16 PM   #101
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
Like I said, I can think of lots of examples that would support your half, and that would justify Dashunde's outlook.

But I can think of plenty that would support the other side's view.

As an interesting drill, we could swap sides on the argument, and I think you'd surprise yourself at how many sincere (vs snide) justifications you could find for the other side's point of view. (In high school debate, each team MUST be prepared to argue either the Pro or Con side, and won't know which side they'll have to represent at any given debate, so they have to honestly try and understand both sides, regardless of personal bias, or they won't do well at all.)

Every group is going to have its obnoxious jerks. The trick is to try to keep the jerks under control, and let the ones who are less likely to fart in church take the lead. The other trick is to avoid name-calling, demonizing, and trivializing the other guy.
MLeake is offline  
Old April 25, 2011, 06:18 PM   #102
stonewall50
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2009
Location: Gainesville, Florida
Posts: 178
I reckon the only reason I would open carry is if I am hunting. I have no need for anyone else knowing I am carrying a gun at any other time. Why let them know that if they are going to pull something that I am the first guy to go for?
__________________
Faith Reason Fraternus
stonewall50 is offline  
Old April 25, 2011, 06:29 PM   #103
lawnboy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 5, 2011
Location: here
Posts: 551
Quote:
Every group is going to have its obnoxious jerks. The trick is to try to keep the jerks under control, and let the ones who are less likely to fart in church take the lead. The other trick is to avoid name-calling, demonizing, and trivializing the other guy.
Well said, and true. Again.
__________________
"Me fail English? That's un-possible!" --Ralph Wiggum

"A woman drove me to drink and I didn't even have the decency to thank her"-- W.C Fields
lawnboy is offline  
Old April 25, 2011, 07:18 PM   #104
Dashunde
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 22, 2004
Posts: 1,691
Look, my outlook on this is pretty simple.
OC'ing has a whole bunch of negative attributes, least of all being what other people think, I view it more of a tactical blunder as a citizen carrying a weapon in a suburban and urban environment.
If your out on the ranch and around town and oc truly does fit the occasion and locale then have at it.

Oc'ing doesnt bother me in-and-of itself, but I do take issue with folks thinking they can use it as a educational tool or want to do it because it looks cool or makes them feel powerful and feared or simply because they have fun spooking others.
None of that is good social behaviour no matter where your from or at and those attitudes and behaviours certainly will not help promote a positive view of firearms.

Right now we still need continued positive results from all of the states that have ccw on the books, nevermind the distraction and possible negative effects of poorly practiced OC'ing.

Last edited by Dashunde; April 25, 2011 at 08:37 PM.
Dashunde is offline  
Old April 25, 2011, 07:30 PM   #105
smince
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2004
Location: Northeast Alabama
Posts: 2,580
I found this link interesting:

http://www.warriortalk.com/showthrea...n-Carry-Part-I
smince is offline  
Old April 25, 2011, 07:34 PM   #106
smince
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2004
Location: Northeast Alabama
Posts: 2,580
Quote:
I just plain don't go anywhere near bad parts of town
Sometimes the 'bad parts of town' come to the good parts...
Quote:
I don't open carry into chucky cheeses when I take my daughter there, or to a little league game.
If it's your...
Quote:
right, given by god, not the state or the government.
...then why not open carry to Chucky's or the little league game? What makes them exceptions?
smince is offline  
Old April 25, 2011, 07:47 PM   #107
Dashunde
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 22, 2004
Posts: 1,691
^Yea.. thats what I was thinking, and an example of why I've been so harsh on that individual (who is probably a great guy IRL).

I really hope all of you read the link that Smince posted above.. its really great common sense reading.


And I almost forgot...
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskeyTango
... we might not be on the same page or have the same views, but we're still gun owners, and that means we're on the same team right?
Definitely.

Last edited by Dashunde; April 25, 2011 at 07:59 PM.
Dashunde is offline  
Old April 25, 2011, 08:02 PM   #108
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
Dashunde, that link preaches to the choir, even for some of us who think OC has its uses.

As previously noted, I personally only OC in a hunting context, though I would be willing to attend an organized OC event, assuming I did not think the host organization were not, for lack of a better term, nuts.

I suppose I might also OC when visiting friends who live in areas where, believe it or not, OC may be more socially acceptable than CC.

But I personally prefer CC for tactical reasons.
MLeake is offline  
Old April 25, 2011, 08:50 PM   #109
Ringolevio
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 30, 2011
Location: Where the Kaw meets the Mighty Mo
Posts: 241
Thoughts...and memories

Of course there are places and situations where OC is practical, convenient, and not necessarily tactically unwise.

But if there weren't a "showing off" component to Open Carry, we wouldn't have the term "barbecue gun".

On another note, I enjoyed the references to various locations in the Evergreen State. I've lived in Seattle, worked the orchards around Cashmere, partied in PT and used to have a cabin on 10 acres between Gardiner and Sequim. I also know my way around Neah Bay and Shi-Shi Beach.

I remember when the sex and drugs at the ol' Fremont Tavern or the Great Green Society flowed as freely as Petroleum Creek. But we still never had a nude bicycle parade! That sounds more like something you'd see on Capitol Hill or the U District.

But thanks for jogging my memory!
Ringolevio is offline  
Old April 25, 2011, 09:01 PM   #110
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
I lived on Queen Anne hill a little over ten years ago. Thought the nude bicyclists crossed the Fremont Bridge on the annual ride, but I could have been wrong.

With regard to the barbecue gun, I thought those were for "showing off" at venues where the guests were friends (and gun people) and everybody was showing off, by design.
MLeake is offline  
Old April 25, 2011, 09:38 PM   #111
Nnobby45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2004
Posts: 3,148
Quote:
As an interesting drill, we could swap sides on the argument, and I think you'd surprise yourself at how many sincere (vs snide) justifications you could find for the other side's point of view.
I understand your arguments. My amusement is mostly with those who intentionally do it to get attention, prove their point, and rub people's noses in the Second Amendment and create more enemies than friends for gun owners.

And yes, there are legit reasons for open carry.
Nnobby45 is offline  
Old April 25, 2011, 10:21 PM   #112
WhiskeyTango
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 2, 2011
Location: Northglenn, CO
Posts: 107
My point behind saying I won't OC in chucky cheeses or to the little league game, even though I legally could, is that I'm not a moron. I don't make it my mission to draw attention to myself. And I do understand that there are certain places where CC are more appropriate, like somewhere there are 200 kids running around. I don't have my CCW right now, it expired last year and I couldn't afford to renew it, still can't afford to renew it. I'll be able to with in the next few months here, hopefully before jacket weather comes again. And yes I'm guilty of CC even though my license is expired, sometimes it's just so natural having my sidearm on me I forget to leave it in the truck or tuck my shirt in. Point is right now I have to open carry because I'll be damned if I going unarmed. Am I supposed to leave my gun in the truck just because I have to go into walmart to get something? I shouldn't be allowed to protect myself everywhere I go?

When I finally do get my CCW back I'll probably CC a bit more often than I OC, point is, I'll OC if I feel like it, sometimes its just more comfortable, and because I CAN. One of the reasons I jumped into this fray was because so many were calling the OCers out, like they were idiots for even thinking of OCing, as if everyone that OC's is making a bad decision or being irresponsible and giving gun owners a bad name and I think that's a bunch of crap. I completely understand why some of you don't like the idea of OC, but thats just it, it's your idea, so don't. As I've already stated, we're supposed to be on the same team here, so in my opinion talking down to people who OC is bad form. We already have enough enemies, we don't need any from the inside.
__________________
"When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny" -Thomas Jefferson

Member-RMGO, Member-NRA, NRA Certified RSO

Last edited by WhiskeyTango; April 25, 2011 at 10:26 PM.
WhiskeyTango is offline  
Old April 25, 2011, 10:50 PM   #113
WhiskeyTango
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 2, 2011
Location: Northglenn, CO
Posts: 107
I wan't to clear something up. I do completely understand the other side of this debate. There are allot of people out there who have no business open carrying. Thats why I won't allow open carry at our public events, I don't really have to worry about the CCW crowd, it's the idiot with a gun on his hip that I have to keep an eye on. I wish I didn't have to ban OC from our event, but from a security standpoint it's just safer, I've got 4,000 people to keep an eye on, I don't need some idiot who's OCing pulling out his gun to show someone else how cool it is and accidentally shoot someone. But for every idiot out there who makes bad decisions, tries to draw attention, and just plain shouldn't own a gun, there are countless responsible gun owners who open carry every day. You shouldn't demonize a practice because a few people make fools of themselves, that's what the brady bunchers do to all gun owners period, except they use psycho nut jobs who kill innocent people as their scapegoats.
__________________
"When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny" -Thomas Jefferson

Member-RMGO, Member-NRA, NRA Certified RSO
WhiskeyTango is offline  
Old April 26, 2011, 12:12 AM   #114
Ryder
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2002
Location: Michigan
Posts: 222
Michigan does not have a law that makes OC legal. It simply lacks a law criminalizing it on a statewide basis. Local manicipalities in the state do have laws criminalizing it. I don't OC because I don't want to research the statutes of thousands of different townships, villages, and cities. There is also no such thing as open carry in a motor vehicle here and I rarely go anyplace without motorized transport.
Ryder is offline  
Old April 26, 2011, 08:10 AM   #115
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
Quote:
But I personally prefer CC for tactical reasons.
Exactly! The element of surprise is a huge tactical bonus.


With Open Carry you simply lose this advantage. Now if you are targeted the bad guy will know what he is up against and prepare an appropriate attack.

The deterrent of the gun in open carry will certainly result in a reduction of overall attacks however when an attack occurs it will likely be a bad one.
threegun is offline  
Old April 26, 2011, 08:25 AM   #116
pgdion
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 22, 2010
Location: MPLS, MN
Posts: 1,106
MN is also technically open carry although absolutely no one does.

Buck nailed it right on the head in the #2 post.
__________________
597 VTR, because there's so many cans and so little time!
pgdion is offline  
Old April 26, 2011, 09:30 AM   #117
lawnboy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 5, 2011
Location: here
Posts: 551
Mleake and Ringolevio,

The parade is actually called the Fremont Solstice Parade and the nude bicycling is just one part of it. But everyone sees it as the "nude bicycle parade". It does cross the bridge. And I'm sure Capitol hill residents and U district residents are extremely jealous that they didn't think of it first. But I'm sure lots of them attend anyway

WA now has a law that prohibits CC at a "public music festival" (I think it prohibits all guns but I'll have to read up on it). I know they have music at this parade so I bet even CC runs afoul of state law (aside from being difficult when nude).
__________________
"Me fail English? That's un-possible!" --Ralph Wiggum

"A woman drove me to drink and I didn't even have the decency to thank her"-- W.C Fields
lawnboy is offline  
Old April 26, 2011, 11:40 AM   #118
WhiskeyTango
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 2, 2011
Location: Northglenn, CO
Posts: 107
Quote:
The deterrent of the gun in open carry will certainly result in a reduction of overall attacks however when an attack occurs it will likely be a bad one
I would rather get into one really bad one then a whole string of little piddly one's I got into enough little ones and bad ones overseas to do me a lifetime.
__________________
"When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny" -Thomas Jefferson

Member-RMGO, Member-NRA, NRA Certified RSO
WhiskeyTango is offline  
Old April 26, 2011, 12:11 PM   #119
publius
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 25, 2005
Location: Mississippi/Texas
Posts: 2,448
I'm all for it if that's your thing. I dream of moving to Flathead Lake, MT. and would probably OC there b/c it's more comfortable and I doubt anyone cares. Now, I doubt I would OC in downtown Billings or in most big cities anywhere. I'm not out to make a statement unless I think it serves a purpose. The only situation in which I would definitely OC is if I lived in IMTHEDUKE's County in AL where it is legal and the Sheriff has threatened to arrest anybody that does it b/c he doesn't like the law. Arrogant, oppressive law enforcement p----- me off and I consider it my duty as an American to take them and crooked politicians down. I think a Civil rights violation lawsuit against the Sheriff and the County would suffice.
__________________
"Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress, but I repeat myself." Mark Twain
publius is offline  
Old April 26, 2011, 01:06 PM   #120
Stevie-Ray
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2007
Location: The shores of Lake Huron
Posts: 4,499
Quote:
I don't have my CCW right now, it expired last year and I couldn't afford to renew it, still can't afford to renew it. Point is right now I have to open carry because I'll be damned if I going unarmed. Am I supposed to leave my gun in the truck just because I have to go into walmart to get something? I shouldn't be allowed to protect myself everywhere I go?
And that bring up yet another wonderful point about OC. Wayne county, where I live, contains the city of Detroit. Detroit is full of people that haven't the means to fund CC for themselves; can't even come up with rent money regularly. But they may have that old revolver or auto that pa or grandpa left to them years ago. Are they not entitled to self-defense outside of their homes? Most murders in Detroit don't even rate news coverage, like many major cities. Wayne county is definitely the county that will get you noticed if you OC, but it is still LEGAL, like it or not.
__________________
Stevie-Ray
Join the NRA/ILA
I am the weapon; my gun is a tool. It's regrettable that with some people those descriptors are reversed.
Stevie-Ray is offline  
Old April 26, 2011, 01:16 PM   #121
Ringolevio
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 30, 2011
Location: Where the Kaw meets the Mighty Mo
Posts: 241
CC au naturel

lawnboy wrote:
Quote:
WA now has a law that prohibits CC at a "public music festival" (I think it prohibits all guns but I'll have to read up on it). I know they have music at this parade so I bet even CC runs afoul of state law (aside from being difficult when nude).
Ya think ya can't CC while in the nude? Check out my post #38 in the thread "How to Carry Concealed" (in this same Forum).
Ringolevio is offline  
Old April 26, 2011, 01:35 PM   #122
lawnboy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 5, 2011
Location: here
Posts: 551
I said difficult, not impossible. Was that the place up near Arlington?
__________________
"Me fail English? That's un-possible!" --Ralph Wiggum

"A woman drove me to drink and I didn't even have the decency to thank her"-- W.C Fields
lawnboy is offline  
Old April 26, 2011, 01:48 PM   #123
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
Quote:
I would rather get into one really bad one then a whole string of little piddly one's I got into enough little ones and bad ones overseas to do me a lifetime.
Really? How would you approach a robbery or assault on an armed openly carrying victim? I would simply shoot them and then take what I want. Not something I would want to defend against if that bad one does happen.


BTW been carrying since the very early 90's. Only had a couple of things happen in that time. SA has kept me pretty unscathed to date.
threegun is offline  
Old April 26, 2011, 01:48 PM   #124
lawnboy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 5, 2011
Location: here
Posts: 551
Stevie Ray,

I would consider such areas of Detroit and it's environs a place where arming yourself is necessary for all the reasons you stated. I'd still opt for legal CC if possible and save legal OC for a last resort. Unless it has become common to see OC in Detroit. By common I'd say that you see several non LEO people OC-ing every day in the course of your normal routine. If it's common, like it is in some rural areas in my state, then I say go for it.

The difference between carrying in a high crime area like most of Detroit and carrying in a low crime place like rural Eastern Washington is that you are unlikely to ever need the weapon to defend yourself in Eastern Washington. You are way more likely to need it in Detroit. So I say preserve the element of surprise and CC if you have the option. That's what I'd do. I value surprise over deterrence. Personal decision.
__________________
"Me fail English? That's un-possible!" --Ralph Wiggum

"A woman drove me to drink and I didn't even have the decency to thank her"-- W.C Fields
lawnboy is offline  
Old April 26, 2011, 10:05 PM   #125
WhiskeyTango
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 2, 2011
Location: Northglenn, CO
Posts: 107
A bad guy who is going to shoot you because your carrying a sidearm in the open is more than likely going to shoot you if your carrying concealed anyway. Bad guys don't usually carry in the open, so he will more than likely have to pull his weapon out of hiding to be able to shoot a victim that is open carrying. I'm pretty good at my job, which most of the time is identifying threats, and if I can't legally CC, I would rather OC and rely on my ability to see the threat coming, it's either that or not carry at all, and become a victim without doing anything to prevent it. Sorry, but I'm not one to lay down and take it.
__________________
"When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny" -Thomas Jefferson

Member-RMGO, Member-NRA, NRA Certified RSO
WhiskeyTango is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:21 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14031 seconds with 7 queries