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Old April 25, 2011, 01:55 PM   #76
TENFAN
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Many reasons to go concealed like not letting the badguys know who to take out first. Also possible target for future thefts.
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Old April 25, 2011, 01:59 PM   #77
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Saw one guy last weekend draw, double-tap two targets, move to the other side of a barrier, double-tap three more targets, in 9 seconds.
At one time I had a draw speed of less than 1/2 second with the snap applied. I have nothing even close with concealed carry. Time to initial presentation is much slower. Speed of splits is of secondary importance IMO to initial presentation.

I call time to initial presentation, time to duress. Duress kicks in once my gun threatens the bad guy. It compromises his ability to hit me and make good decisions.

Nowadays I mostly carry in a fanny pack. This is hyper slow. I must rely on Situational Awareness.
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Old April 25, 2011, 02:46 PM   #78
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lawnboy:
The Starbucks meet up I posted about was in Lakewood, which is in Pierce county. Groups meet regularly in just about all areas of Washington. I know there is a meet in King county that has been ongoing for quite a while. The Lakewood meet up has only been going on regularly scheduled for about 6 months.

Honestly guys, very few people even notice an openly carried gun. Gun people notice most often, but even then they have to be looking for it. It's surprising how oblivious people are about it.

I personally OC for many reasons: Deterrent, ease of draw , comfort and largely to promote 2nd amendment rights. If you want to see many other peoples reasons for OC, check out opencarry.org. There's lots of people all over the country who are normal, safe, polite OCers. They are not after any special attention. Everybody whom I met at meets have been the normal average people, law abiding and nobody ran around screaming check out my gun it's got pearl grips and fancy gold accents.

Some states don't have an option to carry concealed and OC is their only option. In my state, if you're 18-20 years old you can't carry concealed. What are those people supposed to do? They have 1 option, and it's OC. Should they not protect themselves, because some people believe CC is better?
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Old April 25, 2011, 03:04 PM   #79
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Irish,
Interesting. I had no idea that those meetings existed.

Ought to have one at about 96th and Pacific Ave in Tacoma. Or up in Fremont during one of the street fairs. Reaction might be very different.

Thanks for the info. I'll have to look into finding one.
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Old April 25, 2011, 03:06 PM   #80
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lawnboy, don't you find it interesting that open carry could create a panic in Fremont? Might scare the troll and the nude bicycle parade...
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Old April 25, 2011, 03:06 PM   #81
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Why conceal?

There are pluses and minuses with both forms of carry.

Open carry
Pluses......... speed, deterrence, easier to carry a larger platform.

Minuses....... no surprise, if an attack happens it will likely be more violent.

Concealed Carry
Pluses..........surprise

Minuses........slower draw, limited size (usually), no deterrent factor.
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Old April 25, 2011, 03:10 PM   #82
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I don't carry open because I don't want the gun to be a catalyst for an event that otherwise would not have occured. It's an unnecessary metric. Less is better. Much like some people like to challenge the biggest guy in the room, some people will challenge you to shoot them, etc. I don't need that in my life.

however

I do respect the people that have the street smarts, constitution and mindset to carry open and do it properly.
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Old April 25, 2011, 03:22 PM   #83
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lawnboy, don't you find it interesting that open carry could create a panic in Fremont? Might scare the troll and the nude bicycle parade...
I don't know man, the troll looks like he can take care of himself. No weapons needed! The parade is a different matter......

Which kinda helps me get a point across. When I see the local news coverage of the nude bicycle parade, or hemp-fest, or pro-affirmative action protestors, or anti-cop protestors or whatever I don't feel more sympathetic to those things. I still think they are, in corresponding order: humorously silly, silly, misguided and evil.

I think the effect of Open Carry (even if it is legal) in an anti-gun hotbed is to harden the resolve of the anti-gun types. Not convince them. The same way I'm convinced to stay away from the nude bicycle parade.

I get exercising your rights. I'm just not sure seeing reasonable, calm, upstanding citizens comfortable with firearms is going to convince the reflexive anti's. But I'm going to try to find and attend one of those OC get-togethers anyway. At least once so I can say I did.
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Old April 25, 2011, 03:35 PM   #84
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This is legal in San Antonio. You can wear only enough to cover your genitals and anus. In TX you can walk around with a long arm.

So, it is time for the school bus to come down your street. You see a gentleman walking down the street (he is wearing a flesh colored thong *), seeming naked. He is sporting an AR.

Do you go congratulate him for exercising his civil rights on clothes and guns - or do you go - Holy Moly - call the law and get your AR for the children.

Are you a sheeple?


* There was a guy who rode a bike like this up and down the fancy neighborhood for fun and to shock the matrons.
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Old April 25, 2011, 03:45 PM   #85
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I guess I'm being difficult, I guess I like to stir up the pot. Some of you might look at me as a liability, but I guaranty you no criminal would ever get my sidearm away from me, unless he was a former Army Ranger or the like. When I make the decision to OC I make it with confidence in my training. You can't be afraid to make the brady bunchers mad, and you can't go around being "polite" to the people who are trying to take away your rights. That's how our rights got taken away in the first place. I may have been idealistic in joining this forum, I may have convinced myself that we were all on the same page, I see now that that was a foolish assumption. But it's OK, we might not be on the same page or have the same views, but we're still gun owners, and that means we're on the same team right?
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Old April 25, 2011, 04:06 PM   #86
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I'd say we are.
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Old April 25, 2011, 04:22 PM   #87
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Antagonizing the enemy is only a sound practice when you are trying to draw him out so that you can defeat him. Antagonizing your enemy for any other reason is pointless and counterproductive.

If you think there is something to be gained by antagonizing anti's with Open Carry I'd like to hear your point of view. I don't think there is anything to be gained. This isn't to say you shouldn't Open Carry. Only you can judge what is acceptable in your neck of the woods. In mine I'm confident it would draw unwanted attention.

Legal and right are often different things. It's legal to wear a flesh colored thong and carry a rifle in Texas. In the situation described it's not right, in my opinon. I don't know what my reaction would be. I suspect it would be to wish I had something besides a 9mm handgun, just in case. Because someone riding a bike while practically naked and carrying a rifle is soft in the head. And crazy people and weapons don't mix.

If we all walked around exercising our rights to the hilt all the time the world would be a worse place than it is.

We are all on the same team. My state is Open Carry. I'm glad. I just choose not to exercise that option. Except when I feel like it. Good for those who do, but I'm not sure that the desired goal is being achieved.

And remember, the 2nd Ammendment stops the government from infringing on your rights. It doesn't stop a private citizen from badgering you and calling attention to your carrying a firearm. Too much hassle for me.
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Old April 25, 2011, 04:30 PM   #88
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I think people are too worried about anti's, and not worried enough about fence-sitters.

There are some anti's who could possibly be swayed, but just like in the world of R's vs D's, the extremists at either end just aren't about to go over to the other side. Fighting for them is either unnecessary or pointless, depending on which side we are discussing.

But the centrists tend to decide elections and prevailing popular sentiment.

So the question is how do you win over the fence-sitters?

I don't care all that much about hardcore anti's. They are beyond my ability to influence.
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Old April 25, 2011, 04:35 PM   #89
Glenn E. Meyer
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No offense but if someone shoots you in parking lot, unless you are Peter Parker with spider sense, they can have your gun.

Yeah, maybe you have unsurpassed H2H abilities - but you can't stop a bullet in midair.
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Old April 25, 2011, 04:41 PM   #90
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Quote:
I think people are too worried about anti's, and not worried enough about fence-sitters.

There are some anti's who could possibly be swayed, but just like in the world of R's vs D's, the extremists at either end just aren't about to go over to the other side. Fighting for them is either unnecessary or pointless, depending on which side we are discussing.

But the centrists tend to decide elections and prevailing popular sentiment.

So the question is how do you win over the fence-sitters?

I don't care all that much about hardcore anti's. They are beyond my ability to influence.
This is well stated. And true. My problem is telling the difference tween hardcore and malleable.
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Old April 25, 2011, 05:18 PM   #91
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It is legal YZR, but where I live in northern MI, it would create quite an uproar. I CCW 100% of the time.
And what part of northern Michigan would that be? I open carried practically all my life while in the Upper Peninsula. I've been known to OC on my new property and the surrounding area of Iosco county. I even OC fairly frequently at my present location in Wayne county, where you won't find a population more liberal, other than maybe Ann Arbor proper. I wouldn't have thought there would be any problem with OC anywhere north of Flint, so I'd very much like to know where to stay away from when I decide to OC. Normally, I CC, but since MI has always been an OC state, it is nice to have the option, and it's great for those inadvertant revelations.
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Old April 25, 2011, 05:21 PM   #92
Dashunde
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ringolevio
In fairness, I have to admit that when you see someone carrying openly, you have good reason to believe he is on the right side of the law.
I'm not so sure about that - it depends on where you are:
At the Feed & Tack, Outfitters store, or a cafe on the edge of a cattle town frequented by coyotes, sure all is well.
At the WalMart, Home Depot, or Olive Garden... hell no, they're quite possibly some unhinged section-8 swaggering around like a fool thinking he's representing the rest of us and not giving a damn what anyone thinks completely content to be spooking people and silently hoping someone starts trouble with or challenges him on his poor choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MLeake
Thing is, Tom, that's one reason I sometimes think more of us should OC - to offer examples of normal, reasonable, mild-mannered types carrying in a professional manner, in order to offset the types you've described.
That all sounds fine on the surface...
Execpt few of us are "professional" gun carriers or protectors of population and shouldnt be looking or playing the part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskeyTango
...but I guaranty you no criminal would ever get my sidearm away from me, unless he was a former Army Ranger or the like.
And there we have it folks... over-confidence in its purest form.
No ninja's are required to sneak up from behind and bury a 6" boot spike at the base of your skull... a weak crackhead could pull it off easily, and could likely end you before you hit the ground using a small Chinese claw hammer bought for $3 out of that bin at Ace Hardware.
Give it a rest Rambo - your still skin and bone and dont have eyes in the back of your head.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MLeak
There are some anti's who could possibly be swayed
Absolutely. I love doing it with my wifes highly educated and "enlightend" democrat friends.
I do it by taking them to the range and letting them blast milk jugs and 4x4 landscape timber - by introducing fun and enjoyment to their formerly fearful mindset - not by rattling the crap out of them with substandard social behaviour and dress.
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Old April 25, 2011, 05:28 PM   #93
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Just for the record - Do I think we should have the right to OC? Sure.
I think we should have the right to do a whole lot of things we shouldnt do.
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Old April 25, 2011, 05:37 PM   #94
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Dashunde, I'm going to guess you live in a university town or city, in a blue state. (Less of a guess than an inference based on comments you've made.)

What offends in your area, does not necessarily offend in all areas.

While I agree with some of what you have said, your tone is starting to grate. Some of us grew up in areas where the sight of a weapon didn't cause wide-spread panic, and there are still plenty of areas that fall into that category.

Substandard dress and behavior?

It might be substandard behavior to assume your personal standards are universal, and should be universally observed.

Last edited by MLeake; April 25, 2011 at 05:46 PM.
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Old April 25, 2011, 05:45 PM   #95
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Interesting thread. Why conceal in an OC State? So you do not incite terror into sheople, which is a chargable offense in one form or another. So you OC, but hide it from the people who look as if they may take offense at the sight of the weapon, while making sure the weapon is readily apparent to LEO's.

Think ballroom dancing down the street, twirling away from G-ma and towards the cop...2, 3, 4...dance that jig of lawfulness!
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Old April 25, 2011, 05:59 PM   #96
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I have read on this forum some people live in a state where open carry is legal but they still carry concealed.

I'm just wondering what the reasoning behind it is.
You should be wondering why some one would open carry when they could carry concealed.

Some possibilities:

Maturity issues

A need make their point that the Second Amendment gives them such rights.

A desire to accustom the public to guns.

A desire to get noticed so all eyes are on them and they are the center of attention. Especially in places like malls where they'll likely be approached by security. Then they can post their interaction on a gun forum in a thread that may exceed 90 replies.

Their belief that open carry makes them safer because criminals won't mess with them.

Unaware that, with the badest of criminals, Bubba will likely shoot them first without hesitation.

Lack of knowledge or concern, regarding the tactical advantage associated with blending in and going unnoticed.

Participating in a demonstratioin that, done properly, may serve a useful purpose in the arena of gun rights.

There are more possibilities, but you get the general idea.

Last edited by Nnobby45; April 25, 2011 at 06:09 PM.
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Old April 25, 2011, 06:03 PM   #97
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Or they might be from areas like AZ or CO, where open carry is considered normal.

They might be accustomed to OC for convenience, or because open OWB is more comfortable than IWB on an oven-hot day.

They might be on their way to or from a hunt, in an area where OC is legal and they don't feel like switching rigs.

In some places, they may have entered an establishment where CC is illegal, but OC is legal, so they switched modes of carry rather than leaving a gun in the car. (VA leaps to mind.)

They might be from Wisconsin - oh, wait, CC isn't legal there, but we all know how terrible OC is, so those WI folk shouldn't do it.

Or, if we are saying they should do it in Wisconsin, since they can't CC, are we saying it's ok to dress and behave in a substandard way, show off our desire to be noticed, display low levels of maturity, and risk the attention of professional thieves and crackheads, but only in Wisconsin? Seems a bit on the hypocritical side, if that's what we are saying...

While your premises may be right in some cases, Nnobby45, they may be way off in others. Be careful how broad a brush you use.
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Old April 25, 2011, 06:08 PM   #98
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A kid in a Tuner car pulls up to a stoplight in a nice neighborhood. He's blasting his stereo. The old people in the Buick next to him shake their heads and click their tongues (and lock their doors).

Stripper mom shows up to the PTA meeting in her work clothes. Other moms sit redfaced and refuse to make eye contact.

I walk into a store in a granola eating neighborhood on the West Coast with a large, black semi automatic handgun OC in a tactical thigh holster. Shop owner calls 911 and store patrons back away from me toward the door.

All of these raise similar response for the similar reasons. The behavior is unexpected and unwelcome.

Now:

A kid in a Tuner car pulls up to his local hangout spot in the same car with the same stereo thumping. His buds bro-hug him and bump fists.

Stripper mom shows up to a bacheor party in her work clothes. She's greeted by wild appreciation.

I show up to a Wilbur-Ellis shop in the middle of Eastern Washington with a large, black semi-automatic handgun in a tactical thigh holster. I get a handshake from the guy who is going to load my fertilizer.

These responses are different because the situations are different. This time the behavior is normal and expected.

In my home area OC would bring me unwelcome attention and trouble. Unfortunately I fear this is the norm for more people than not. Most of us live in cities and their suburbs after all.
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Old April 25, 2011, 06:10 PM   #99
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Dachshund, I don't think I'm Rambo, and I certainly do not think I'm over confident. I know what I'm doing, but I don't go looking for trouble. I would never put my self in a situation were a crackhead could surprise me with a hammer. I never round blind corners, I don't walk down dark alleys or streets, I just plain don't go anywhere near bad parts of town, I almost always have an out, and if I don't I'm that much more alert. I identify threats based on body language, attitude, and yes, appearance in general. It was my job to pick out the bad guy when he looked and acted just like everybody else. So if me knowing I can handle myself in this big scary world is over confidence then perhaps I am, but I'm not stupid or irresponsible. I realize that gun owners and there actions speak to the world, and I don't do anything to jeopardize our collective image. I don't open carry into chucky cheeses when I take my daughter there, or to a little league game. I don't open carry to make people uneasy, or to shove it in the face of the anti's, I do it because it's my right, given by god, not the state or the government. I do it because I choose to. And if some people don't like it or think it's polite then screw 'em, we probably wouldn't have gotten along anyway.

As a side note, I lived in Arizona for most of my life, and open carry there was no big deal. LOTS of people OC there, and no one thinks twice about it. It didn't put people on edge, or cause any uproars. People were used to it. The problem with most other states is people are to liberal, afraid of real freedom and afraid of anyone who has it. Add to that people who don't want to rock the boat and you have a prime example of how this country got the way it is. We can sit here and argue about the tactical advantages of CC over OC, and whether or not the bad guys will pick you as a target because you are or you aren't. The real point here is it's our right, not a privilege(and this is directed at the group as a whole, not just Dachshund). If a bad guy wants to get you he will, it makes no difference whether you are CC or OC. If you don't want to OC and offend anyone or put a target on your back then don't, that's your decision, and there is nothing wrong with it, but don't look down your nose at those of us who choose to practice our right responsibly.
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Old April 25, 2011, 06:11 PM   #100
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While your premises may be right in some cases, Nnobby45, they may be way off in others. Be careful how broad a brush you use.
Well, it looks like you painted half the canvas. Me, the other half.

Quote:
They might be from Wisconsin - oh, wait, CC isn't legal there, but we all know how terrible OC is, so those WI folk shouldn't do it.
OC where CCW is illegal isn't an issue. Only opting for OC when CCW is also an option.

Last edited by Nnobby45; April 25, 2011 at 06:22 PM.
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