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Old April 24, 2011, 09:34 PM   #51
C0untZer0
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I think this story is interesting in a couple of ways:

http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/95999354.html

First of all I think this guy lived in a high crime area.

I think carrying a gun openly in that situation is similar to wearing a rolex or waving a gold Krugerrand around.

It seems like residents in the area perceived that he was issuing some sort of challenge to others by carrying openly like "Don't mess with me" (According to "Shambria").

And I also think that these guys probably set an ambush for this gun owner. And it may have been to show him up, a feather in their cap, or maybe it was just the for the money or both.

But I do think that this is a good example of a time when it's not wise to carry openly. In this particular situation if you're going to carry openly you'd better have eyes in the back of your head.

Definately food for thought.
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Old April 24, 2011, 09:35 PM   #52
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We can play what if games all day, but the fact is OC can function as a deterrent while CC does not
LOL...as a concealed carrier, I see some civvie OCing in an urban area, my hinkymeter goes up and I split (or get mentally ready to shoot him). Thats deterrence I reckon.

Rambo is already hovering around some of the responses here. You want to protect your community, get involved, not just parade around with your gun dangling


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Old April 24, 2011, 09:40 PM   #53
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Please note the link that C0untZer0 posted occurred in Wisconsin, where open carry is legal but concealed carry is not (or did that just change?)

Kind of changes the paradigm a bit.
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Old April 24, 2011, 09:59 PM   #54
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Open carry; robberies, state-federal decalared emergencies....

I read a few new posts and wanted to post a response.

Thefts, armed robbery or other incidents can occur too with open carry.

About 4 years ago, there was a media report of a armed, uniformed security officer working in a "bad area" of my city.
The apt complex guard was attacked by 2 armed subjects who took the officer's sidearm, badge, impact weapon, chemical agent etc.
The whole event started with men asking the security guard for directions.

I also agree that states or elected officals should pass pro-gun/2A laws to allow full open carry by CWP or concealed weapon license holders in times of state or federal declared emergencies. Something like Katrina(2005) or Andrew(1992).
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Old April 24, 2011, 10:13 PM   #55
Dashunde
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish
..that's 50% fewer criminals who will attempt it...
Your percentages are all skewed and represent a unrealistic, virtually nonexistent, number of people (2) who would attack any one of us.
Using 50% would require at least two, but you could live 50 lifetimes and have zero.
Your giving up the element of surprise that would be a big advantage in dealing with a intelligent or fearless criminal so that you can deter the opportunistic variety who may run away if you reach/present after being confronted - which is the same result as oc, thus making the argument of oc being a deterrent a moot point.

If your ever attacked you will get who you get.
Perhaps you will get your two and they'll distract, disarm, and shoot you with your own gun... when they might have just walked on past you instead.

It takes only one with motivation and clarity of thought and your done.
I say its great to have the right, but be smart and play your cards close.
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Old April 24, 2011, 10:33 PM   #56
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I didn't even bother to read more than a few posts in this thread, because my answer would be the same. I don't personally agree with any of the "center of attention" or "being polite to others" or the "you don't want to advertise your armed" stuff. It's fine if you think that way, to each his own, but I open carry all the time even though I have a CWP. I could absolutely care less what others think, and smile to myself when I get the odd looks, points and stares. I believe if more gun owners open carried and were not afraid to practice their God given right, it would take allot of the wind out of the anti-gun lobby's sails. Granted it might cause some type of uproar in the beginning, but over time I think it would help our fight immensely. If just 20% of gun owners started to open carry, I bet within 6 months things would start to change, people would see that guns don't jump out of their holsters and kill people, and that gun owners aren't looking for any trouble, and that trouble won't go looking for them. Heck we might even make believers out of some of the brady bunch crowd. My point is, is that carrying in the open (or concealed for that matter) is a god given right, and I'm sick and tired of these brady bunchers dictating whether or not I can practice that right. Ok, rant over.

That all being said, I was shopping in a Home Depot a few years back and an employee saw me pushing a cart full of lumber, I got ready to ask him where something was and he saw my gun on my hip. The kid freaked out and started screaming "OMG, he has a gun!" The cops got called, I just went on about my business like nothing happened. The cops got there and I put my hands on my head and dropped to my knees without being told to do so, after they took my weapon from me the sat me down and ask what I was doing, I told them I was building a work bench and trying to shop for materials when Suzy started screaming. After about 10 min of me explaining myself they gave me back my gun, told the kid I had every right to carry it, and left. The manager was standing right there by now, and I told him that little Suzy's out burst just cost him a $500 sale, and left with out buying anything.

On the other side of the fence, A friend of mine was shopping at walmart one day and was reaching to the top shelf to get something. His jacket and shirt rose up above his waist and his gun was exposed. Someone saw it and freaked out. Started screaming, cops got called, he was questioned, given his gun back, and went about his business.

The moral of the story is stuff like this happens all the time, it doesn't matter if you carry in the open, or concealed, until people are used to Americans exercising their God given rights it will continue to happen.
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Old April 24, 2011, 10:40 PM   #57
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Weapon retention-skill training; Street Survival book...

Years ago, as a lower enlisted MP, I got a LE only book about officer safety & "street survival". In the text book was a b/w photo taken from a state corrections dept of 2 inmates practicing weapon/sidearm snatches.
I'm not sure if that photo or related material are available to the general public or with an open source but that is something to consider when you carry a loaded firearm either open or concealed.

CF
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Old April 24, 2011, 11:54 PM   #58
Dashunde
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskeyTango
I believe ... it would take allot of the wind out of the anti-gun lobby's sails.
Romanticized nonsense... that would fuel their fight because few of us, even most ccw'rs, want to see people walking around with guns dangling.
It's just not polite to the eye, especially to a anti's eye, and if you stuff it in their face they will react poorly, like always.
Your not going to teach them anything by OC'ing.

What other environments have we seen lately that depicted the general population openly carrying firearms?
The likely answer is a third-world hole that none of us want to live in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskeyTango
I could absolutely care less what others think, and smile to myself when I get the odd looks, points and stares
That attitude is much more of a liablity than it is anything else.
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Old April 25, 2011, 12:21 AM   #59
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Depressing reading

I'm gettin' kinda depressed reading this thread. It's because I'm seeing so many rationalizations for open carry, along with so few who realize that concealed carry is a deterrent even when no one chooses to exercise it, because the criminals have no way to tell who is armed and who is not.

Someone claimed that open carry deters crime the same way a big, mean dog deters burglary. 'Sorry, but it's not that simple. The dog deters amateurs. A determined professional will arrive at your house with a plan (and the means) to quickly neutralize your dog.

Similarly, OC deters only amateurs. A serious criminal who wants your gun already has a tactical advantage because you have voluntarily relinquished the elements of uncertainty and surprise.

Maybe the problem is that the OC advocates, bless their hearts, are idealists. They want us to be like the Old West, which was actually quite peaceful and orderly (and not at all like in the movies!) precisely because everyone was armed and competent with firearms. It was proof that "An armed society is a polite society" (Ideally, I wish we'd all carry rifles all the time, and be the "Nation of Riflemen" we were once known as).

But in today's world, with criminals more hardened and more organized than ever and the majority of citizens not "comfortable" with guns, that idealism runs into the reality that OC is really not a very prudent way of going armed. It's just better to keep the bad guys guessing.

Once again, all the talk about faster draws and the supposed deterrent value of a visible gun are just rationalizations for guys who like to show off, for one reason or another, that they're packing heat.
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Old April 25, 2011, 01:16 AM   #60
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I read this thread and I was going to stay out of it until I read Ringolevio's post. He basically summed up how I feel about this issue.

Crime is so bad now that the last thing you want to do is draw attention to your car, your money, your gun or any other valuable property. When we are out and about, my wife turns her wedding ring around so the stone is into her palm. I remove my wallet from my back pocket and carry it out of sight in a front pants pocket or in a jacket pocket with a zipper.

The absolute last thing I would want to do is advertise to muggers that I'm carrying a gun and where on my person I am carrying it. Today's criminals are irrational, likely doped up and they usually work in teams of two or three.

The muggers and carjackers are not as afraid of your gun as some may think. They might see this as a challenge to bum rush the armed citizen and take his gun. The less they know about me and what I have on me, the better. Two of our best weapons are our brain and the element of surprise. The gun comes in third.
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Old April 25, 2011, 09:12 AM   #61
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Quote:
Romanticized nonsense... that would fuel their fight because few of us, even most ccw'rs, want to see people walking around with guns dangling.
It's just not polite to the eye, especially to a anti's eye, and if you stuff it in their face they will react poorly, like always.
It's a gun, not a penis. You seem to be confused. (what's that line from "Zardoz"?)
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Old April 25, 2011, 11:43 AM   #62
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^Ah right... I'm the one who's confused. Good thing your clear thinking was there to set me straight.
At least we know whats on your mind... lol

Last edited by Dashunde; April 25, 2011 at 12:11 PM.
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Old April 25, 2011, 11:43 AM   #63
irish52084
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Where I'm from, OC was almost unheard of 5 years ago. Some people began meeting up and discussing OC at Starbucks and the anti's had a hissy fit. The OC group still had their meetings and the anti's protested one at a Starbucks. Starbucks came out and said if the OCers were doing nothing illegal they would continue to serve them. Strangely enough, I don't think the anti's ever came back to protest again.

Since that incident made local news, OC has grown exponentially here. The police have become more educated on OC and preemption laws have removed some of the no guns allowed signs in our parks and other areas. Every once in a while a situation occurs with an officer who doesn't know the law and they hassle someone OC. Those situations are handled and usually end up with that officer and the department undertaking new training on the laws that pertain to OC and CC.

As OC has become more common here and people become a little more educated they become less fearful. The fear of guns and gun carriers comes from a lack of knowledge, we fear what we do not know. The more educated we make people, the less of an issue it is. It's funny how people get outraged when your gun is visible, but put a t-shirt over it and everything is fine. It's the same gun one way or another and just as deadly whether they see it or not.

You can only ever deter amateur criminals. If truly intelligent, motivated criminals want something you have, your firearms, OC or CC, won't change a thing. The fact remains, that most robberies of citizens on the street are more or less opportunity based. They aren't scoping you out for weeks. They see you walking down the street and an opportunity to make a few dollars. You can't prevent the hell bent criminals. They will commit their crimes regardless of deterrents.
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Old April 25, 2011, 11:51 AM   #64
zxcvbob
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Quote:
You can only ever deter amateur criminals. If truly intelligent, motivated criminals want something you have, your firearms, OC or CC, won't change a thing. The fact remains, that most robberies of citizens on the street are more or less opportunity based. They aren't scoping you out for weeks. They see you walking down the street and an opportunity to make a few dollars. You can't prevent the hell bent criminals. They will commit their crimes regardless of deterrents.
And wearing a gun openly will get their attention. So you deter most criminals, and at the same time attract the really determined ones who otherwise might not notice you. (just laying it out there, not making a judgement either way)
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Old April 25, 2011, 11:54 AM   #65
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As noted earlier, I see open carry as more of an advantage against animals than against BG's.

One other thing, going back to theoretical draw speed: If you are concerned with CC being too slow, go try out an IDPA match sometime. Most of the courses of fire require a cover garment, and realistic CC holsters and ammo holders.

Saw one guy last weekend draw, double-tap two targets, move to the other side of a barrier, double-tap three more targets, in 9 seconds.
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Old April 25, 2011, 12:09 PM   #66
Dashunde
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish
If truly intelligent, motivated criminals want something you have, your firearms, OC or CC, won't change a thing. The fact remains, that most robberies of citizens on the street are more or less opportunity based.
OC vs CC changes everything - Perhaps your gun is what they will want - and now you've provided opportunity.
OC'ing unnecessarily paints a target on your back for many reasons, plain and simple.

Some seem to keep thinking that they are spooking away many would-be attackers, when in reality your odds of being attacked in the first place are very very small.

Honestly, I think the OC thing is mostly bravdo rooster struting blizblaz that provides miniscule advantages while giving up all of the substancial advantages of CC.
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Old April 25, 2011, 12:10 PM   #67
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Old April 25, 2011, 12:15 PM   #68
MrWesson
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The real debate is whether open carry can

Educate the sheeple/get them accustomed to guns.
or
Scare the sheeple and get them to support legislation against it.

I honestly don't know the answer or if a right one exists.
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Old April 25, 2011, 12:29 PM   #69
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Although NM is an open carry state, I prefer not to for many of the reasons already stated.

However, there is another reason. The laws are more restrictive regarding carrying in a place that sells alcohol. You cannot legally OC into
Walmarts or a Quick Stop gas station and go inside when OC. You can while CC. OC is prohibited in any place that sells alcohol, and it does not have to be sold for consumption on the premise.

Regards,
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Old April 25, 2011, 12:32 PM   #70
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MLeake wrote:
Quote:
As noted earlier, I see open carry as more of an advantage against animals than against BG's.
I can see that. I spend a lot of time in the woods with my dog (not hunting, just walking). OC would be a convenience, but I still conceal.

BTW, if you're out in bear country, there are very few of the common "manstopper" handguns (other than the .357 or .44 magnums) that are going to do you much good. You'd be better off toting nothing less than a .30-06!

In fairness, I have to admit that when you see someone carrying openly, you have good reason to believe he is on the right side of the law.

But I still think the question should be "Why carry openly in a concealed carry state?"
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Old April 25, 2011, 12:36 PM   #71
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irish52084 wrote:
Quote:
.......I have sat in Starbucks with 20 or so OC'ers, all carrying, and I watched every customer I could who walked through the doors. I'd guess that maybe 1 in 3 customers even noticed there were 20+openly armed people in the room with them. None of the customers ran away scared or acted scared, the police didn't come by and threaten us and nobody had their gun stolen.
Eastern or Western??.

As a fellow Washingtonian my money is on Eastern. Or, if Western, you are on the Olympic peninsula or another seriously rural area. I would not like my chances of not being harassed for OC in any area of King county, 90% of Snohomish, Pierce, Thurston and the eastern half of Kitsap county and the Western half of Whatcom county.

The only time I OC in WA is when camping in Okanogan county. And during the drive there from my home in Snohomish county.
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Old April 25, 2011, 12:42 PM   #72
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Ringolevio, my woods guns are .44 Magnum (S&W Mountain Gun 4" for hiking, S&W 629-3 6" for hunting) or 10mm (Fusion longslide 6" 1911, also for hunting).

Those are pretty much my only OC's, although sometimes I CC the Mountain Gun. The others are too long for easy concealment.

As good as a .30-06? No, but much more portable.
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Old April 25, 2011, 01:01 PM   #73
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Quote:
In fairness, I have to admit that when you see someone carrying openly, you have good reason to believe he is on the right side of the law.
True, but in my experience, some of them bear watching from a safety standpoint.
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Old April 25, 2011, 01:02 PM   #74
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Thing is, Tom, that's one reason I sometimes think more of us should OC - to offer examples of normal, reasonable, mild-mannered types carrying in a professional manner, in order to offset the types you've described.
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Old April 25, 2011, 01:41 PM   #75
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Quote:
Thing is, Tom, that's one reason I sometimes think more of us should OC - to offer examples of normal, reasonable, mild-mannered types carrying in a professional manner, in order to offset the types you've described.
Assumes that the person seeing you can be convinced by examples. You can never permit yourself to forget the stupidity of the average person. My non-scientific estimate is that less than 1 in 3 people have anything functioning in their head except their lizard brain. This allows them to walk around, smell, taste, feel simple emotions like anger and fear but not much else. Such a person is impervious to learning by anything short of aversion therapy.

Showing people what they have learned to fear doesn't convince anyone of anything. I don't know what the solution is, but I don't think widespread open carry is it.
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