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Old April 24, 2011, 11:34 AM   #26
irish52084
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I live in an open carry state, Washington, and it's rare that people even notice my gun when I OC. I carry both OC and CC and they both have their place, but OC is more comfortable.

The only responses I've had to my OC is a couple double takes when in line at the grocery store. No one has tried to steal my gun, made negative comments or asked me to leave their store or home. I have sat in Starbucks with 20 or so OC'ers, all carrying, and I watched every customer I could who walked through the doors. I'd guess that maybe 1 in 3 customers even noticed there were 20+openly armed people in the room with them. None of the customers ran away scared or acted scared, the police didn't come by and threaten us and nobody had their gun stolen.

As for the tactical advantage of CC over OC, I call BS. At best you're trading one tactical advantage for another. I know for myself that drawing my weapon from a concealed position is more difficult, slower and much easier to screw up than drawing from an open carry situation. I have nothing against CC, but I'm still waiting to see a true story of an OC'er being "gun snatched" or outright targeted because he/she had an openly carried gun.
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Old April 24, 2011, 02:23 PM   #27
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I know for myself that drawing my weapon from a concealed position is more difficult, slower and much easier to screw up than drawing from an open carry situation.
And I know very many who can draw from concealment faster than most open carriers.

Practice Practice Practice.
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Old April 24, 2011, 02:43 PM   #28
egor20
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irish52084

I have nothing against CC, but I'm still waiting to see a true story of an OC'er being "gun snatched" or outright targeted because he/she had an openly carried gun.


Man robbed of gun, money while sitting in car
A Manassas man was robbed of a handgun and money Saturday night, police said.

The 26-year-old victim was seated in his car in the 9700 block of Liberia Avenue, near the Parkhust Plaza and Evergreen Terrace shopping centers in Manassas, around 10:30 p.m. when someone he knew opened the driver’s side door and held him at knifepoint, Prince William police spokesman Jonathan Perok said.

The knife was put up to the victim’s neck while a second unknown man took the items, Perok said.

Police said the victim was not hurt in the incident.
http://www2.insidenova.com/news/2011...dge-ar-983383/



The detective who is investigating the case has a daughter who boards her horse with me. The victim OCed, and his "friends" knew he did.
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Old April 24, 2011, 03:05 PM   #29
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Because I got over that whole "needing to be at the center of attention" thing at an early age.
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Old April 24, 2011, 03:07 PM   #30
9mm
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when someone he knew opened the driver’s side door


Thus he was robbed by someone he KNEW, not some stranger, so I do not count this case.

And he OPENED the door, meaning I guess, it was unlocked. This is why you LOCK your doors.
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Old April 24, 2011, 03:09 PM   #31
chasep255
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Let me just start of by saying that I have never carried before. But if I were to I would think that I would not want to open carry in some places. I would just feel weird letting others know that you have a gun with you. Also I have heard that carrying openly makes you a target.
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Old April 24, 2011, 03:45 PM   #32
mrray13
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Originally Posted by Water-Man
Because there's a time to OC and a time to CC and that time is determined by the person carrying.

Well said Water-Man, and IMHO, the best answer.

As we all know, there are pros and cons, both tactically and otherwise, to both ways of carrying. I think that as long as it's legal to carry and you are legally able to carry, then you should carry. Be it OC or CC, I don't care.

I do wish more would OC, as previously mentioned, it would go a long way to condition other people to learn not all who carry are bad, even if they aren't cops.
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Old April 24, 2011, 04:48 PM   #33
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drb1611:
"Agree with previous posts - open carry gets unwanted attention from fellow civilians and law enforcement. For non-LEOs, carrying a gun should be for one reason - to defend against an attacker in a potentially lethal situation, not to advertise you have a gun. IMO, it should only be carried concealed. I have never seen someone open carry; and suspect that if I did, at least in a business establishment, the owner/manager would ask the person to leave."

why would they be asked to leave?

oc, never seen it, you should get out more.
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Old April 24, 2011, 04:50 PM   #34
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I'd love to open carry all the time but really don't care for any attention, positive or negative. I fully support anyone that chooses to do it though, and I've certainly done it myself quite a few times.
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Old April 24, 2011, 05:41 PM   #35
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Sweet Home Alabama is an open carry state, however, my local sheriff tells me that their local laws will trump State law everytime and they will stop anyone open carrying. I don't have time for the hassel.
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Old April 24, 2011, 06:09 PM   #36
irish52084
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egor20: There is nothing in your link that states the man was OC. If hearsay from a detectives daughter is all you have, then I'm not sold. Maybe he was OC, but I see no clear evidence or proof that he was.

I'm open to the fact that it could happen and maybe it has, but I haven't yet seen a clear cut instance of a legal OC'er being gun grabbed. I think there is a challeng if someone can prove that a legit OC gun grab has occurred. I believe the guidelines are pretty clear. Here is a link to a discussion about it, look at post #19 for some details:http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...-my-partner-OC
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Old April 24, 2011, 06:13 PM   #37
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CC gives you a tactical advantage.
OC gives you a strategic advantage.

Do whichever you think is appropriate for the circumstances, and rock-on.
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Old April 24, 2011, 06:14 PM   #38
irish52084
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smince: The fact that someone can draw faster than me from a concealed position VS an open one is pretty pointless. If that same person, who is faster than me drawing from OC, were to devote the same amount of time to drawing from OC as CC they would be even faster than they were from concealed.
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Old April 24, 2011, 06:18 PM   #39
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Man open carrying was robbed of his gun: http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/police/...wtonPatton.htm

Yet nother incident of a man who was open carrying being robbed of his gun: http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/95999354.html

In BOTH cases the person who was open carrying was targeted because they were open carrying. Concealed carry would have LIKELY prevented these incidents from occurring.
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Old April 24, 2011, 06:28 PM   #40
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If you are down to fast-draw, you've already screwed up. It will be hard to dig out from the hole the momentary loss of situational awareness dropped you into.

Not meant as a slam, either. We all have those momentary losses of SA, condition orange be damned.

But in any of those cases where you have any inkling that something is going down, draw speed should not be a factor; the weapon should be in a concealed-ready state, unless you need to fire right then and there, or need to attempt to immediately deter the BG prior to firing.

Now, if I'm worried about something like bears, then the fast-draw becomes more of a valid issue, because quite frankly in most of the accounts I've read of bear attacks, the victim did not see it coming. This goes back to my own tendency to only OC when out in the great outdoors; even then, I typically CC, because I'm not normally in places where bears are a major concern. (Although we did seem to have had one in the barn a couple years ago....)
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Old April 24, 2011, 07:48 PM   #41
irish52084
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Skadoosh: Not sure if you're are interested in the challenge I linked to or not, but if so, I don't the links you provided match the criteria. They were both robberies and not gun grabs.

OC may have made them a target for robbery, because guns are valuable, but so does a nice watch. Nice homes are targeted for the same reason, they have things of value inside.

A CC gun prevents no crime. Drawing or showing a firearm has stopped many crimes without a shot fired. I tend to view OC as letting someone know I'm a hard target, if they even notice I'm armed. It's the gun and the presenting of it that sends a message of deterrence. An openly carried gun sends that message in the open, where CC requires you to draw and present the deterrent. If you have to perform several actions to deter VS a visible deterrent, which is more effective the majority of the time?

I'm not saying that everyone should OC, just saying that by my logic it's a better option in the majority of circumstances. I OC and CC, my personal experiences have made me realize that CC is just more work for less return.

I'd rather have my gun ready and easily available to me in a greater range of circumstances, so OC is better for me. I have a young son and often have to carry him in one arm, making some CC draws very difficult. I carry strong side for both CC and OC, but I can tell you from training, OC draw one handed is much easier. I will be damned if I'm going to take any advantage away from myself in a defensive situation that likely will have me at a disadvantage already.

I carry for defense, if I'm drawing my pistol I probably have nowhere else to go and my life or my family's is in danger. I need to be on that gun in the most efficient way possible and I need to run it hard, fast and accurately in a bad situation. If I have to push my coat out of the way, pull up my shirt or whatever else to draw, it's one more complication to an already stressful and deadly situation.

I won't let peoples fear of a weapon or their view of me carrying it legally compromise my safety or my family's. Let them gawk and think: "Oh my god, that guy has the audacity to carry a gun here!" I'm protecting me and my family, not the haters feelings.
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Old April 24, 2011, 08:22 PM   #42
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There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for a civilian to carry openly in the populated public. There just isnt.

Open carry is a deterrent - your not a cop, your not there to deter, by carrying open you paint the same target on your back that a cop has... only your back isnt protected by a vest, nor partner.

I'll get to the point of it all - If I were a badguy and intent on committing a crime against or around an OC'r, you can be certain that the OC'r will be my very first target and they will not see it coming.

Last edited by Dashunde; April 24, 2011 at 08:56 PM.
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Old April 24, 2011, 08:49 PM   #43
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Florida is trying to pass an open carry law. This is probably contradictory, but I support the law and I do not believe open carry is a good option for most civilian situations. I support it because in limited circumstances, such as stopping by a convenience store while on the way to or from the woods or the lake, I would be nice not to have to remove a gun. I guess it would also be nice to know I have the option but that is the libertarian in me.

I agree that it is a deterrence but it also makes you the likely first target. That being said I could see the deterrence factor being useful after a hurricane or other disaster.
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Old April 24, 2011, 08:56 PM   #44
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It's a mixed bag, but IMO it should be legal.
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Old April 24, 2011, 08:57 PM   #45
Dashunde
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Legal? Yes.
Smart? No.
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Old April 24, 2011, 08:58 PM   #46
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Quote:
There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for a civilian to carry openly in the populated public. There just isnt.
That is a conclusion. I'm not going to say that it is illogical, but I have seen no evidence to support it.

I live in a state where OC is not currently authorized, and I strongly believe that should be changed. I'm not saying I would OC, as I would not do so regularly, but I would support the rights of others who would.

And there is something to be said for the statement "Those who do not exercise their rights soon lose them". I firmly believe that average citizens seeing fellow law-abiding citizens carrying, every day, with no ensuing mayhem, would be a positive influence in the day-to-day lives of Mr. and Mrs. Average Citizen. Might take a while, might take a few MWAG calls, but I believe it would be a net positive.

Please note that this is a conclusion as well, and I might be wrong...but I don't think so.

Last edited by orionengnr; April 24, 2011 at 09:05 PM.
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Old April 24, 2011, 09:13 PM   #47
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This has been a really good thread and I appreciate the opinions and the links.

This is just my opinion, but if I were a police officer I would rather my state had OC than CC. The statistics show that most people who carry are law abiding citizens. Of course bad guys are not going to obey laws and I think it improbable that they would carry openly although they've done dumber things in the past. But if I were police officer I'd rather know who was armed than not know (excluding the bad guys). Maybe there's a hole in that logic - if there is I'm sure someone will point it out.

Just from my own perspective I'd rather a state has both. I think the best thing I've heard so far is that there is a time for OC and a time for CC.

When we were having breakfast outside of Ft Huachuca in AZ and two guys walked in wearing pistols on their hips no one gawked. I mean I noticed it mainly because their right hips were facign toward me as they walked by, but there was no fuss from anyone in the restaurant. There were probably other people in their carrying but I didn't notice them.

One of the things that the Open Carry movement talks about is perceptions are different in different parts of the country and if people in a particular area have negative perceptions about guns they react negatively. At least in that neck of the woods in AZ, it was no big deal.
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Old April 24, 2011, 09:21 PM   #48
irish52084
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The police have no duty to protect or deter crime, they investigate and attempt to prevent crime through deterrence. The supreme court of the united states or SCOTUS has ruled as such.

I am a part of a community and therefore responsible, in part, for it's condition and safety. I am responsible for the security of myself and my property. Part of that security is deterrence, also known as a gun.

Likewise, if I were a criminal and wished to target an armed person or persons I would use surprise as well. The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of criminals want a soft target and the presence of a gun has been stated as a reason to avoid that target. Think of it this way: If 50% of criminals who wanted to rob me wouldn't do so because I had a gun, that's 50% fewer criminals who will attempt it. If my OC firearm prevents half the robbery attempts on me, then it works better than a CC gun which the full 100% of criminals didn't know was present. A CC gun prevents no crime or attempted crimes until it is drawn or shown. An OC gun presents itself immediately and says this wallet isn't worth the potential loss of your criminal life. The other 50% of criminals didn't care about the gun, so it doesn't matter in those instances.

If a criminal is planning to the point of specifically eliminating me because he views me as a threat, then he's going to have done some research on me and I must have something he really wants. At that point there isn't anything I could do to prevent it from happening.

We can play what if games all day, but the fact is OC can function as a deterrent while CC does not. I'll take the deterrent that is obvious, because it does encourage the criminal to pick another target. Kind of like a big intimidating dog helps deter home burglary, because nobody wants to get bit or have the dog wake up an armed home owner who then presents a lethal threat.
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Old April 24, 2011, 09:27 PM   #49
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Florida is trying to pass an open carry law. This is probably contradictory, but I support the law and I do not believe open carry is a good option for most civilian situations.
I concur. Right now, Florida law requires absolute concealment. If the wind blows back my shirt and my weapon is exposed, I could be in for trouble. The open carry law allows one to be a little less paranoid about that.

In Georgia, I have the luxury of being pretty sloppy about concealment. The average person is unlikely to notice my weapon, but someone who's been around guns might. Here, it's not a problem.

Now, do I want to advertise that I'm armed? No. Nobody needs to know I'm armed. It's a weapon. It's there for one purpose, and that's a pretty grim one. It shouldn't be in play unless I'm trying to stop something truly dreadful from happening.

For me, the whole idea of carrying a weapon revolves around reducing risk. In reality, what are the odds that I'll actually need it? Pretty darn small. Still, I carry it, just in case.

If we take the idea of risk abatement to its conclusion, it makes no sense for me to add an element of risk back into the equation. To me, carrying an exposed weapon does just that. Your mileage may vary.

What I can tell you is that most of the die-hard open carry types I've met carry in substandard rigs, have little or no training in weapons retention, and really don't seem to take the idea of the gun as a weapon very seriously. Treat it as anything but a weapon, and we're asking for trouble.

Before someone comes along to claim that I don't support their rights (and they will), I would never support a law restricting or banning the practice. I just wish those who do it would do so a bit more responsibly.
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Old April 24, 2011, 09:32 PM   #50
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Why conceal in a open carry state?

Because I am polite. I believe in discretion. I have no reason to open carry. I do not wish to cause others discomfort "just because I can".

The accepted norm varies between regions. In some areas, open carry is simply a way of life while in others, it is so infrequently seen that when witnessed, it may cause panic. I dislike panic.
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