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Old July 14, 2004, 11:29 AM   #1
springfieldmaniac
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Wilson Combat/Scattergun Technologies VERY BAD Customer Service!!!!

I will try to make this short and to the point.I'm not posting this to force a resolution.I have given them two opportunties to correct the problem,in which all I met with was reluctance and rudeness.To make a long story short I sent my Brand new Remington 870HD to Wilson Combat for their Remington Steal Package with Trak lock sights and armor tuff finish.Not including the shipping charges this was incredibly expensive at a cost of about $450.00.In the advertisement for this package they fail to mention that they utilize the brand new "take-off" parts from the express guns they purchase from Remington and build their combat shotguns.Well the Remington Steal Package rebuild is a seperate issue to my main complaint here.So I won't write a lengthy statment on that subject,although they screwed me on that issue in addition to the following.The biggest problem is they refused to warranty a defective finish.My father and I went to the range 1-2 weeks after getting by gun back from Wilson.After we cleaned our guns.I was using a brand of gun scrubber and some gun solvent(Eezox) There was a small pool of liquid at the end of the barrel and magazine extension that I wiped dry with a cotton rag.To my suprise the finish started coming off.Similar to how paint would react to paint remover,just to give you a mental picture.When I looked at the mag tube,it was bare metal,there was no parkerizing under the Gun Kote finish that is part of the process.This Armor-Tuff finish was anything but "tuff" This is the same finish they advertize as being able to withstand 24hour submersion in gasoline hydrochloric acid and other strong chemicals.For those that do not know Armor-Tuff is comprised of parkerizing the parts and then spraying them with what in reality is Gun Kote and then curing the finish with heat.Well,I don't know what happend to mine,not properly prepped?bad batch of Gun Kote? No parkerizing?Apparantly!Somone forgot a step or two?Frankly what went wrong is their problem to figure out.Well,I e-mail them and ask them to pick-up the gun via courier on their dime and refinish my gun just in parkerizing alone and refund the difference in the finish costs between parkerized and "armor tuff" price,about a $125.00 difference.At this point the finish does not impress me,I do not need any further or future incoviences,so my request is more than fair.To redo the finish it has to be reparkerized anyhow.Well after having my gun for several days.Here is the in what my opinion is a rude response I got from Wilson Combat.I just love the part when they accuse me of using something "abrasive" on the finish.Why don't you just call me a liar after I explained in detail the circumstances surrounding the finish problem!


Dear Ralph,
We have looked over your gun, and we will be shipping it back to you today. Per my supervisor "It looks like he took an abrasive to it, which is not covered under warranty." We have done you a service and payment will not be reimbursed. I know you felt the job should have been done with Wilson parts, it says clearly in the catalog "Remington Steal" We are not going to parkerize the gun either, this is not cost effective for our company. I will apologize for you being the 1 out of 100% that is not happy with our work, and suggest that you find a company you will be happy with.

Sincerely
Mary

PS. If you have any further inquires please refer them to johnm@wilsomcombat.com

I called the so called "Supervisor" who was worthless after speaking with him for 20 minutes,he offered no resolution and only demanded that I e-mail him all the e-mail correspondance.The e-mails we exchanged have no bearing on the issue.He said,we have never had this happen before.He also stated it was not a simple matter,that the gun sights would be destroyed in refinishing the gun.So apparantly I was suppose to give them 450.00 for this work to be done,have the finish come off with regular gun cleaning chemicals.Then go out and have somone else fix their mistake at my cost of refinishing and eating the cost of the new Trak-lock sights expense because they find themselves in the unique position of never having to warranty their finish before.A simple apology and offer to fix the problem would have been acceptable.Now since they have decided to steal money from me and not abide by their own warranty and customer service creed,I have disputed the credit card charge,and will be posting my experiences on all the boards and report them to the BBB as time permits.They really blew it,and added insult upon injury.I recommend anyone contemplating doing business with this company consider utilizing your money with a company that doesn't make false claims about the products,and the refuses to make good on their warranty.
R.Swanno

Last edited by springfieldmaniac; July 15, 2004 at 12:56 AM.
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Old July 14, 2004, 12:58 PM   #2
C_Yeager
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I know it doesnt help much but, gun scrubber will be very harmfull to most all gun finishes. Exposing the outter surfaces of any firearm should be avoided.
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Old July 15, 2004, 12:53 AM   #3
springfieldmaniac
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Fluid Resistance:

ARMOR-TUFF® will meet 24-hour immersion requirements in the following fluids: aviation gasoline, hydraulic fluid, jet fuel, lubricating oils, paint removers, trichlorethylene, nitric, sulphuric and hydrochloric acids, hydrogen peroxide, gun powder solvents, common gun lubricants, strong bases such as hydroxide, and numerous other strong chemicals
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Old July 15, 2004, 06:04 AM   #4
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Well, I can see where things went downhill really quickly. Once conversations get to the point of where you are no longer discussing the issue and converting the discussion to personal insult, then the ability to get to a point of agreed remedy won't ever happen. I don't know how things got to that point, but once things are personal, that is usually it. By suggesting they are calling you a liar, you have left them no out on resolving the issue.

It is interesting that the Armor Tuff only came off the mag extension tube. Why only the mag tube? So the rest of the gun is okay?

Why do you conveniently leave out the specific name of gun scrubber product and only call it a "brand"?

A little research on your part would have revealed the fact that Armor Tuff is neither.
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...ght=armor+tuff

If you checked 1911Forum, you will find more negative comments on Armor Tuff.
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Old July 16, 2004, 01:31 AM   #5
springfieldmaniac
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Your correct.The situation went downhill quickly when they were given two opportunities to remedy the situation,and failed miserably at both attempts.I didn't send myself the insulting e-mail,so how should I feel? If I explained the situation in detail,and what I used on the gun,and then they insist that an abrasive was used.They send me that abrupt e-mail and the gun back to me unfixed,wouldn't you feel your integrity was called into question?? I then go a step further to speak with the supervisor on the phone and he still offers no resolution,and still questions my story.I now have my gun sitting in front of me with one range/cleaning session on it since spending over $450.00 (not including shipping) with Wilson Combat.The finish is defective,there is no parkerizing under the gun kote. I only got the gun solvent on the parts where it pooled towards the end of the barrel and mag tube when I was cleaning the barrel.The last couple inches of the barrel and magazine extension is where most of the damage occurred.This of course means the rest of the finish on the gun is also defective,but is still intact because I didn't use any solvent on the rest after what happend early in the cleaning procedure.The product was a gun scrubber,I'm not sure of the name brand,perhaps Birchwood Casey.It makes no difference the brand,and frankly you have the same attitude and tone as the supervisor did when I tried to fairly resolve the issue before making this post.I have never been treated so crappy before from a so called reputable company that makes claims about their products and services that are false.I'm also sorry I didn't research every firearms forums to find out how poorly Wilson Combat actually rates.Now I'm supposed to eat another few hundred dollars to fix their mistakes with another gunsmith? If you think I didn't get screwed then I lost all faith in people.

Last edited by springfieldmaniac; July 16, 2004 at 11:36 AM.
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Old July 16, 2004, 11:34 AM   #6
springfieldmaniac
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Here is a humerous link.I wonder what customers will be extremely satisfied?Must be the ones that don't not need any customer service.

http://www.wilsoncombat.com/info_customer_service.htm

Since receiving my gun back unfixed and my conversation with the supervisor on Monday,I've not heard a peep out of Wilson Combat.The silence speaks volumes.Anyhow,Like I stated before,justice will be done via Credit Card Company.Thankfully credit card companies ensure integrity for their valued consumers among shody vendors such as Wilson Combat.I posted this thread to warn others.If I save some people from experiences like mine,I've done my duty.This will also cost Wilson Combat sales,from me bringing my situation out into the public,I hope they felt it was worth screwing an honest customer over.Accept what I have said here or don't.I stand behind my facts and the truth.Sadly,there is no longer accountability in business.Excuses,denial,blame,no accountability is apparantly the new Customer Service Creed at Wilson Combat :barf:
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Old July 16, 2004, 11:46 AM   #7
raz-0
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well, heck, post some pics, I'm sure we can draw some conclusions from that. The reason people want to know the brand is because people commonly like to make substitutions and call it guns scrubber. Warranties warrant against defects, not somone doing something bad to their new gear. But knowing the brand means we would be able to look up what is in it and in what concentrations, and then put forth an educated opinion on if a teflon based gun finish should be able to survive it or would yeild the type of damage in your pictures.

Pictures would be real useful.
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Old July 16, 2004, 11:17 PM   #8
springfieldmaniac
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I don't have the equipment to take photo's,or I would do so just because your interested in seeing the finish.I'm not sure how well the photos would be able to show the damage though.The point I was trying to bring out is the brand of scrubber doesn't matter.The warranty claims it can withstand submersion in hydrochloric acid,so the brand is a mute point.I used a gun product,Birchwood Casey(spelling?)I also used Eezox,I told Wilson Combat all they wanted to know.I was cooperative and they were not.They didn't even suggest an issue with the scrubber.They suggested I took an abrasive to the finish and therefore not going to fix the gun.I just posted this as a public service announcement to save other people grief,not ask for approval or validation or debate.Buyer Beware
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Old July 17, 2004, 08:19 AM   #9
Quartus
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Quote:
The warranty claims it can withstand submersion in hydrochloric acid,so the brand is a mute point.
Uh, I think you meant to say "MOOT" point. A misuse of the word, but at least it makes some kind of sense.


As for the warranty, hydrochloric acid is hydrochloric acid. It's not a solvent. A claim that it resists HCL is not a claim that it resists solvents.

Quote:
They didn't even suggest an issue with the scrubber.They suggested I took an abrasive to the finish
To me, THIS is a telling point. It's not hard to tell the difference between solvent damage and abrasive damage.

At any rate, a gun finish that won't stand up to common gun cleaning solvents is about as useful as automotive paint that won't stand up to a car wash.

"Armor Tuff" Phooey!
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Old July 17, 2004, 11:42 AM   #10
springfieldmaniac
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Below is off their website,I thought I would post it again,it clearly states it can resist 24 hour submersion in Gun Solvents,sulphuric and hydrochloric acids and other "strong" chemicals.Anybody that has any knowledge of these acids or has worked with them before know they are a tad bit stronger than gun scrubber

I have a witness,My Father that saw the finish react to the gun scrubber and come off in front of our very eyes with a cotton rag.I don't know where they come off saying an abrasive was used.They claimed this is the first time they have seen this,So instead of giving the customer the benefit of the doubt,they decide to screw me.This is no way to run a business.In the next year or two I was planning on purchasing a 1911 pistol.They have lost far more from not correcting their defective finish then what they are saving from screwing me over.I also go by the name "tombstone" on Bladeforums.I've been on various forums since 1997 and have a history of honesty and integrity on all my dealings,trading,selling etc. If I was wrong here,I would eat the loss and accept it as a hard learning experience,but that was not the case.As others mentioned on the other forums,Go with Vang Comp,it is a better product and service.





Fluid Resistance:

ARMOR-TUFF® will meet 24-hour immersion requirements in the following fluids: aviation gasoline, hydraulic fluid, jet fuel, lubricating oils, paint removers, trichlorethylene, nitric, sulphuric and hydrochloric acids, hydrogen peroxide, gun powder solvents, common gun lubricants, strong bases such as hydroxide, and numerous other strong chemicals

A
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Old July 17, 2004, 01:08 PM   #11
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Acid isn't solvent. It isn't a matter of being "stronger" - it's different. Apples and oranges. HCL won't touch wax. Most petroleum based solvents will disolve it. <shrug>

As for the warranty, this is their out: "and numerous other strong chemicals"

They didn't say WHICH other strong chemicals, and they can always say that whatever you used wasn't one of them.



But that really isn't the issue. They aren't claiming you damaged it with a solvent that wasn't covered by their warranty. They said you used an abrasive, and you have to be pretty stupid to not be able to tell the difference between solvent damage and abrasive damage. IOW, they either don't know their rear from a hole in the ground, or they are just making excuses.


From the other comments on that link, it's pretty clear that this stuff is not worth the money.
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Old July 17, 2004, 06:55 PM   #12
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Thanks for the warning, I won't be spending any of my money at Wilson Combat.
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Old July 17, 2004, 09:00 PM   #13
springfieldmaniac
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Quartus, I understand by what you mean "different" However,they do clearly say gun solvents and gun scrubber can be considered as such.As you say though,they never challenged what I used,they claimed abrasive damage.I agree with you that apparantly they do not know their *** from a hole in the ground.That is why when I received the e-mail,I was more in shock then you can believe,where they would come up with that response.My dismay and disbelief was even more compounded by the supervisors reaction during our phone conversation.I couldn't believe my ears,I thought I was in the Twilight Zone,it was so ridiculous.I've looked at the damage numerous times,and for the life of me I don't see what they could ever confuse with abrasive damage.It looks like the finish was just washing away,and on the barrel was streaky and melty kinda of a look,almost like water color streaks.The damage matches exactly to my complaint.
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Old July 18, 2004, 06:19 PM   #14
Quartus
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Quote:
they do clearly say gun solvents and gun scrubber can be considered as such

Only by your average English speaking person of normal intelligence.
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Old July 18, 2004, 06:37 PM   #15
springfieldmaniac
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Quote:
Only by your average English speaking person of normal intelligence
Good Point!
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Old August 16, 2004, 08:38 PM   #16
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W O W !

They specifically mention Tri Chlor, which is what most gun scrubbers are. I'm inclined to believe this story (though it would be helpfull to see some photos). The way you mention it running is pretty clearly NOT an abrasive mark.

Sounds very typical of a company that is just a little too successfull. What a shame. Thanks for the heads up, I'm only a few weeks away from making the move and this catalog has spent alot of time in my hands. Sometimes a few words from a real customer can ugly-up a lot of glossy photos in a book.

I've been pouring over their catalog and it just about makes me sick. We want our customers to be EXTREMELY SATISFIED not just satisfied!! :barf:
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Old August 21, 2004, 10:54 PM   #17
springfieldmaniac
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After reading they're catalog I felt confident in sending my gun away after some really bad experiences with other "gunsmiths" ruining my other firearms.I thought really good company,large,experienced,etc.As I found out the words in the catalog were just that,words.I'm totally bummed about my gun.
I've learned my lesson.If I can't do it myself it will not get done.Not to insult any other gunsmiths out here,but I decided I will never again let anyone work on my guns except the factory that manufactured the firearm.I'm glad to have posted this thread,in hopes to save others the same grief.Take Care

PS. I have no camera for photo's,even if I did,I'm not confident in my ability to post clear enough pictures on here to be of any help.I can only describe in detail the problem.As you point out "running" can clearly show the finish defect.Abrasive damage would clearly be obvious to anyone,even a common person.To this day,I've never heard a word back from Wilson Combat and/or supervisor.I included a link to this post in my e-mail to him,within minutes of making this original post after all my efforts failed to resolve this issue.I think the silence,speaks volumes.
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Old August 22, 2004, 07:32 PM   #18
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I am glad I took time to follow this thread. I feel that you are in the right and are receiving the shaft. I will say that you really need to get some photos posted in order to be taken completely serious. Not having a digital camera is not an excuse and if your capable of operating a automobile or even posting on a BB you can get photos posted online to make your claim totally irrefutable. I also feel that this particular case is a clashing of personalities. Thats the great thing about credit card use when a situation like this occurs.
With regards to Wilson as a company I personally have had no experience with them and more than likely would not have had any with or without this thread. Additionaly I am surprised that a company with the name recognition that Wilson has would allow this matter to fester so. I am sure it has cost them at least a sale or two on this BB alone.
Good luck and be safe.

Of course the above is nothing more than my perspective on the matter for what thats worth.
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Old August 22, 2004, 08:58 PM   #19
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GLK,I appreciate your reply.I go by the name of "Tombstone" on Bladeforums."glockmaniac" on Glock Talk and "springfieldmaniac" on XD Forums,"Satan" on Usual Suspects Network.I have no hidden agenda.There are plenty of people there that will give out references for my integrity.I understand the help of photo's in this situation.I'm very sorry for not having a digital camera,but honestly I'm not going to buy one to validate my claim.If someone chooses to do business with Wilson Combat,irregardless of my post,I recommend that they at least stay away from the Armor-Tuff coating.I wish I could go back in time and I would just have gotten the parkerizing job and I probably would have had a great experience otherwise. I'm sure this is the case in lots of peoples experiences.It is how the the company handles a complaint,is when the true colors show.Now the choice is up to the good people of this forum,if they want to continue to give business to such a company.Thanks for all the replies.

Last edited by springfieldmaniac; August 22, 2004 at 09:41 PM.
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Old September 4, 2004, 11:20 PM   #20
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Thanks for the heads up. Always good to know how businesses treat customers AFTER the purchase. Everybody is nice before the purchase....

WTR
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Old September 5, 2004, 02:49 PM   #21
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No Problem,glad to spread the word to prevent other casualties.Just a side note.I received an e-mail from the BBB with an attachment of Wilson Combat's response to my complaint.If you can believe the B***s of these guy's,they claimed that it was obvious that I had "intentionally" sanded the guns finish off! "Longitudinal sanding strokes" was also mentioned.These marks were not caused by sanding as indicated by Wilson Combats Duane Wormington's comments,but rubbing off the liquid solvent and the finish was smearing off. Well,these people have no integrity what so ever,and wouldn't know customer service if it bit them on the rear.Claiming I'm 1 of 100% that is disatisfied doesn't bolster their integrity much either.It would take a mighty company to make that kinda claim for customer service satisfaction.To make blatant lies to cover up their failure to do the right thing should not be tolerated.I had the gun looked at by a well known gunsmith recently.I will not name him or involve him in this internet forum business.If he reads this and wants to jump in then I leave that for him to decide.Some gunsmiths do not want to get involved with such disputes.It should be noted while we did not test with a gun scrubber,because I did not have it with me at the exam,the Armor-Tuff finish pigment was easily being lifted/rubbed off with Acetone and green pigment could even be seen with rubbing with a dry tissue.Interestingly,Wilson never conducted any such tests while the gun was back at their shop for warranty examinations.My hopes is that the credit card dispute is resolved in my favor so I can have my gun refinished etc.Thanks to all for following this thread.If anyone would like to e-mail Duane Wormington of Wilson Combat in reponse to my poor treatment,his outrageous comments,and his companies disgusting behavior during this ordeal feel free.Best Regards,Ralph

P.S. Edited to add: It should also be noted.The first thing commented by the gunsmith that the finish was off to bare metal on the magazine tube.No Parkerizing under the Armor-Tuff(gun-kote)part of finish was noted.
It was also Obvious to anyone looking at the firearm,the bare metal still had a sandblasted appearance,no indication of finish being removed by "sanding"! Wilson Combat,you should be ASHAMED!!!!

Last edited by springfieldmaniac; September 5, 2004 at 04:14 PM.
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Old September 10, 2004, 04:12 PM   #22
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why not just video yourself using the same solvent and method on another part of the gun then mail them a copy and w/ a note that you have retained council and he has the original? fix it or face legal cost. thiers and yours.
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Old September 11, 2004, 06:33 PM   #23
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That's a good idea.I'll look into finding someone with a video camera.Thanks!
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Old September 22, 2004, 05:14 PM   #24
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Thanks for posting this sad experience. It prompted me to send this letter to WC. It probably won't make a bit of difference, but I just felt compelled to say something. I hate companies that get so big and successful that they feel they don't have to worry about customer support anymore. This seems to be the case with WC.

Anyway, here's what I had to say:

Quote:

Hello John M @ Wilson Combat,

I was dismayed to read (on a gun forum on the internet) of a recent "problem" a customer is experiencing in trying to resolve an issue with a product he purchased from Wilson Combat.

How you run your business is obviously none of mine, but the apparant callous attitude your company has taken towards this particular customer is not likely to garner you more customers in the long run. Especially when said customer is recounting his experience with Wilson Combat Customer Service on numerous gun-related discussion forums on the internet. (Just take a look at what happened to Dan Rather/CBS as a result of the internet, as a perfect case in point).

Regardless of who was ultimately at fault in this particular case, you have failed to follow the most simple and basic rule of doing business with the public: "THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT". PERIOD.

While you may feel justified in refusing to honor this customers (paid in full) warranty (presumably to save yourselves a few bucks), the long-term cost to WC will surely prove to be substantially higher through the loss of future revenue from all who have read of this embarrassing (for WC) experience on the internet.

It's certainly made me seriously contemplate whether I would be comfortable doing business with Wilson Combat.

Just saying is all...

Thanks for your time,
Best of luck getting your barrel back in shape, and thanks again for sharing your experience with us.
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Old September 22, 2004, 05:43 PM   #25
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Nice letter. Maybe they'll read it.
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