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Old March 19, 2005, 12:42 AM   #26
4RHeritage
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Best for self defense

The only thing I learned from judo of any value was how to fall down without getting hurt. If you want to learn real martial arts for self defense then the hands down winner is Wing Tsun, of the Leung Ting school, he is the deadliest man on the planet. However, this may not be available in your area, so Aikido is a useful alternative. If you want to learn how to survive on the street, without taking years of martials arts, you may want to consider a Jim Wagner course.

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Old March 19, 2005, 05:46 AM   #27
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Krav Mager Maor

If you have a ccw weapon and just want to get your hands free and 2 meters of distance again, and have no classical martial arts background, Krav Mager Maor might be right for you: Easy to learn and effective.

If you also want to be able to finish a fight and fight on the ground, jiu-jitsu is my recommendation. But this takes time to get good with. If you finally are, you cold be more effective on short ranges with your body than with a gun...

and here's just the standard boiler-plate from my website:

The martial arts can be divided into three fields: Self-Defence, Martial Sports and so-called "Soft" Martial Arts.

Self-Defence need not be graceful, fair or an appropriate subject of competition. It need only be effective and easy to recall. Focussing on real-life situations, self-defence systems need to provide for appropriate and reliable ways for a suprised defendant to protect him/herself without taking risks. Self-defence therefore rather be radical and simple. The best self-defence system I know is http://www.atk.at.

Martial Sports have a totally different aim. Though they mostly originated from real-life combat techniques, they have changed in order to give a forum for fair competition. Sometimes they are as far away from self-defence as olympic fencing is from an ancient swordfight. They give rise to tremendous athletic and acrobatic performance. Such Martial Sports are e.g. TaeKwonDo, Judo, Karate, Wrestling and (Kick-) Boxing.

"Soft" Martial Arts should not be misunderstood. Although they focus on the art as such, they can be very tough. Usually they take very long to be learned and don't provide a forum for competition. E.g. Aikido and Chinese Kung-Fu Styles are usually neither practiced for athletic nor self-defence purposes. However, they can be extremly demanding and effective once one has reached master's skills.
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Old March 31, 2005, 02:10 PM   #28
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As has been stated before, the instructor is extremely important factor.

However, IMHO Judo can be one of the more effective of the martial arts from the standpoint that you regularly practice against a stongly resisting opponent.

Judo, Wrestling, Brazilian Jui-Jitsu, Boxing, Muy-Tai and perhaps a few are examples of arts where your opponent is actually trying to either pin you, force you to submit, or knock you out. These are MUCH closer simulations for self defense than point sparring or saying "I could knee you in the groin if you did that" (whiney voice).

In Judo you are tested almost every time you practice to see if you TRUELY know how to make that throw, armlock, block, etc. work against someone who is trying to do the same to you. To me it is an excellent balance between practicing safely and developing EFFECTIVE self defense techniques.

Martin

PS The following is a good forum for martial arts related stuff:
http://www.fightingarts.com/
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Old March 31, 2005, 02:31 PM   #29
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Judo, like many other martial arts, can be used effectively.

As one or two others have said, there is no "deadliest martial art", striking or otherwise. There are generally effective arts, and there are deadly people.

I agree that it's good to have a wide range of tools in your armory, but I also tend to agree that it's better to have them come from a comprehensive school than a buffet of arts.

Maybe you could think of it like this: you could take a Hemi V8, which works great in a Chrysler, add to it a turbocharger that does wonders for an Eclipse, and toss in a fuel injector that does a bang-up job in Audi. Though these parts may work very well for their intended vehicles, there is no guarantee that they will perform well with each other. Just a thought.

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Old March 31, 2005, 06:54 PM   #30
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My main art is Tang Soo Do in which I am a 5th Degree Black Belt. My instructor was also a Blact belt in Judo. I can tell you this. Twice I have used simple hip throw and it saved the bacon. One guy was charging me. Just rolled right with him. The other grabbed my coat in the winter and ended up on his back. As someone said cement is a good landingstriop for jets. The fight was pretty much over after the throws. The choke holds I've also found to be very useful. I do think you also need some basis in a striking art also. Check out some Jiu-Jitsu clubs. These usually include strikes as well as throws, locks, and chokes. Mr. Kano took techniques from Jiu-Jitsu to form the sport of Judo.
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Old April 1, 2005, 12:52 AM   #31
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i second tangsoodo. and boxing, and and ground fighting.
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Old April 1, 2005, 04:12 PM   #32
Blind Tree Frog
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Quote:
Mr. Kano took techniques from Jiu-Jitsu to form the sport of Judo.
Yes, but modern jui jitsu was derived from judo. It shares little with traditional jui jitsu outside of the name.

Sorry that just irks me a bit.
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Old April 2, 2005, 12:59 AM   #33
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Didn't mean to irk you BLINDTREEFROG. I see what your saying about modern JiuJitsu. I'm not an expert on grappling arts but I thought some traditional styles of JiuJitsu still existed. Their was a Mr. Ping up North who taught what he said was a traditional style of JiuJitsu that included kicks and handstrikes.He was pretty impressive. Anyways as I said the Judo I learned from my instuctor served me well in many situations. As you well know sometimes our opponents can get up on us fast. That's why knowledge of grappling is a must. I used the jointlocks some, the chokes more, and the throws, takedowns, and so on much more. Going back to the original question yes judo can be quite effective. Add a striking art and your good to go. The chokes also are a great way to change someones mind fast!
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Old April 2, 2005, 05:21 AM   #34
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I'm partial to Krav Maga, Karate and Pi Qua Quan.

Pi Qua Quan is hard though, but once you get it down pat, it can be quite effective in certain circumstances. To me, it's main focus seems to be keeping your opponent at bay as you back off or to drive them foreward. But, that's just my thinking.
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Old April 2, 2005, 01:13 PM   #35
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Always liked Heto & Moto myself.

Come to L.A. Will have a party
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Old April 3, 2005, 05:06 PM   #36
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Quote:
Didn't mean to irk you BLINDTREEFROG. I see what your saying about modern JiuJitsu. I'm not an expert on grappling arts but I thought some traditional styles of JiuJitsu still existed. Their was a Mr. Ping up North who taught what he said was a traditional style of JiuJitsu that included kicks and handstrikes.He was pretty impressive. Anyways as I said the Judo I learned from my instuctor served me well in many situations.
Sorry, I've been bitter in general as of late.

But to elaborate, my understanding of the history was Juijitsu was there, but the training was rather brutal. Judo was developed to be a bit more friendly training wise. Judo was selected for official pruposes and juijitsu pretty much died out. Probably a few schools of it still around, but what people refer to as JJ today (specifically BJJ) is derived from one of the judo schools.

Course, if you go to a TKD school they'll say it came from Korea and that they dominate the sport so what can you do. Everyone is an ******* (but mainly me).

And I've been to a Judo school that tought punches and kicks. Originally Judo had punches and kicks (infact, as I remember it, the original "black belt" qualificaiton was to go pick a fight in the red light district and drop your opponent with one strike). Just depends where you go and if it's a sport orient school or combat.
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Old April 5, 2005, 03:32 PM   #37
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I know this was a really old post, but this quote bugs me...
Quote:
Systems like Aikido can be useful particularly for attribute developments, but their effectiveness is, in general, limited by the fact that they are trained in Kata form only.
In my experience, Aikido does not use Katas at all except for weapons training. It's almost exclusively "full contact" and randori since the techniques can be done without inflicting any injury. That's one of the reasons why it is such a good method of self defense if you're committed to training in it.

Rick
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Old April 7, 2005, 11:15 AM   #38
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I know this is an old thread and probably has been addressed almost as many times as.."what is the most effective caliber" argument. I just wanted to state that there is no "Deadliest" martial art, or "Ultimate" etc. I agree with Blind Tree Frog, in that anyone who starts spouting such garbage is an amateur, even with years of experience behind them. Any true Martial Artist knows that any style can be effective, formidable and dangerous. I have been training Martial Arts for the better part of my whole life, I have trained diligently and daily for 30 years. I have partnered up and been involved with a number of different styles and have always found the subtle nuances about all the styles facinating.
Fact, I love Judo, I did not study the sport Judo, when I trained, we did not have weight classes or age brackets...heck, it was matching up people according to the color of belt and letting em go at it. I love Tae Kwon Do, I did not study the sport Tae Kwon Do, my Teacher spent years instructing the Korean Military and used his knowledge in battle, we did not spend the all too familiar majority of time on Kicks vs. Hands, there were alot of grabbing, chopping, smashing, locks and dis-locations. Fact of the matter is, Tae Kwon Do is a very formidable style. It is this new sport stuff that has everyone thinking it is not effective. I also spent a few years adding some Hung Gar Kung Fu, Choi Li Fut, Aikido, Kendo, Muy Thai (I really like the leg kicks of this style), Hapkido (much like the TKD), Kyokushinkai Karate and most recently have played around with Mixed Martial Arts, I like this stuff because it incorporates sooo many posiblities, with the exception of getting it on with multiple attackers. As for the Video of Royce and the Kick boxer, nice!! I love to see different styles get it on. I had myself once "sparred" with a BJJ artist that claimed his 15 years of training had made him pretty much invincible (at that point I knew he was an amateur)...I let him close on me and as he went for my hips, i rolled with his grapple and hit him in his temple with Thumb Knuckle attack (Oya yubi), he was out! BJJ is a formidable style, just not this particular loudmouth. Yes, I have been blasted into the next dimension myself a time or two. There is NO ultimate style...PERIOD!!!

The moral of this rant...pick a style, any style...train with diligence and determination.

By the way...uh, yeah, Judo is a good style.
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Old April 7, 2005, 01:42 PM   #39
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Judo

Judo is great! It's saved my bacon several times. It's beauty is in it's philosophy: Instead of asking, "How can I quickly kill/maim my opponent?" it asks "How can I end this quickly without killing or maiming my opponent?"

One interesting twist I've observed is that some judo techniques can be slightly modified to flip a foe squarely onto his head rather than flat on his back, resulting in almost certain spinal injury or death.

The bottom line is that any style can be effective, even deadly.
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Old April 7, 2005, 04:37 PM   #40
Blind Tree Frog
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heh, you do the throw right in the first place outside of a mat and they aren't going to be moving anytime soon. No need to worry about dropping them on their head.
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Old April 7, 2005, 06:00 PM   #41
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Ukemi

True, BTF,

Most people won't know to absorb the impact of a fall with their arms & keep their chins tucked to avoid bopping their heads on the ground. Still, there's a lot of difference between getting the wind knocked out of you & breaking your neck!
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Old April 8, 2005, 12:49 AM   #42
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Even then, back when I did judo many many years ago, I could get people to bounce on the mats and then lay there in pain for a bit; People trained how to fall. You hit the throw correctly and there is enough power behind most all of them that they will not appreciate hitting the ground. Hell, do you like how it feels when you trip just walking around? Now put force behind it.


As an example, not to make this a Judo vs BJJ thing, it might of been mentoined before about the Judo vs BJJ match that the one BJJ choke hold came out of (named after the judo guy who beat the BJJ guy with it). The general consensus of the match was that if the mats were not as soft as they were (they were extra soft, non-regulation as i remember) the Gracie would not of stayed concious long enough for him to have been beaten. The falling from the throws would have knocked him out. And if the gracies aren't trained to take a fall (as opposed to a dive) then I'm not sure who would be.


That was a joke, calm down... the dive i mean
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Old April 8, 2005, 09:01 AM   #43
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Judo, or any of the hand to hand combat training scenarios can be effective against unarmed perps. I prefer that old combat training.......S&W
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Old April 8, 2005, 11:09 AM   #44
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Judo or Jujitsu can be very effective. The throws are great, but the real fight stoppers are the joint breaking techniques and chokes. Learning how to fall without hurting yourself is a bonus too. They call Judo the 'gentle way', but if you don't know how to fall there is nothing gentle about being slammed to the ground. The more vicious techniques were taken out of Judo for competition, like the neck breaks and throws that break joints at the same time. Competition typically isn't about maiming your opponent.

But the senior students and the sensei at the dojo I went to were also into firearms. They always said if someone pulls a gun on you forget jujitsu and shoot em first or duck and run.
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Old April 8, 2005, 11:46 AM   #45
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gun-fu

Yep, taking a fall is one thing, but taking a bullet? Mm, no thanks.
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Old April 8, 2005, 04:12 PM   #46
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My major concern with grapling arts is you can only fight one person at a time. If the BG has a few buddies with him, you had better pull out your gun. Martial arts that concentrate on strikes have the edge here as a devestating strike will drop your BG and make his buddies seriously reconsider going hand to hand. On the flip side, the BG's buddies seeing your proficiency at martial arts may choose to escalate to firearms and then everyone is in trouble.

The best defense period is RUN, DON'T WALK, at the first hint of trouble. This is if the trouble is avoidable of course and not in your own home or business. I'm not advocating cowardice, but not getting into situations in the first place is usually the most appealing alternative.

On another note, I've heard Krav Magra is pretty vicious. The are the antithesis of "sport" partial arts and have refined all of the wasted motion and energy out of their art.

Another art that is particularly nasty is a form of Kung Fu with a name I can't remember. The response to a straight punch is to block with the arm while simultaneously kicking for the elbow of the attacker's punching arm, while simulatenously conducting an open handed strike to shove the guy's nose up his brain, and then bringing the kicking foot (after breaking the guys elbow) down on the side of the knee to criple the guy for life unless he is already dead from his nose being shoved up his brain. How is that for nasty??? Couldn't they just shoot me in the head instead of making me go through that?
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Old April 18, 2005, 07:00 PM   #47
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Your concern about the grappling arts is well-founded.

However-
Quote:
open handed strike to shove the guy's nose up his brain
strikes to the face *can* be lethal, but the "nose into brain" thing is myth.

John
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Old April 18, 2005, 09:07 PM   #48
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NO, no it's not a myth, in fact I teach that technique in my school!! I teach that technique along with the "ripping the guys heart out of his body and show it to him before he dies" technique, yeah, its a long name but..*whew* you should see what a mess it makes when we are training for it! My favorite is the "Quivering Palm" strike, which will kill your foe without even really touching him, but since I don't want to go to prison, I usually just give my attackers the "Death Touch", which will cause the recipient to die suddenly a few days later...and I am looooong gone!! We train these techniques, between floating on air or balancing on thin branches of trees while fighting with swords. My top students are given the "pebble in the palm" thingy...only after they have caught a bullet in their teeth.
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Old April 18, 2005, 09:48 PM   #49
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I have trained in Kung Fu, Judo, Brazilian JuJitsu, American Kickboxing, and Thai Boxing. There is no martial art that you can train that will make you a worse fighter (provided you have proper instruction). The way that Tae Kwon Do is taught in the states nowadays is the only thing I would consider an exception to that rule - people are taught to punch from the hip and to do far too complicated kicks that leave their balance (poorly trained) and distance at risk.

Long story short - learn something and become proficient at it and keep it as another tool.

I have competed in Brazilian JuJitsu (Master Relson Gracie) and full contact matches in the past. One of the best moves you can learn is in another style that complements your favorite.

If I had to make a suggestion, I would say Thai Boxing with some knowledge in Brazilian JuJitsu. In a real-world confrontation, one of two things is going to happen:

1) You'll end up on the ground. This is dangerous if your opponent knows how to grapple. With just a few weeks of training you can DOMINATE someone of much larger size on the ground. Since I am relatively small, this is where I take all fights - I can control the speed, intensity, and damage in the fight to my advantage. Perfect case is not beating some drunk idiot within an inch of his life, but holding his face to the floor until authorities show up.

2) You'll stand up and square off. A Thai boxer is going to work to get knees and elbows in, the most effective weapons on the human body for striking. I have been beaten up by Thai boxers and it hurts, a lot.

That being said, I have been thrown on my ass by Judo instructors even when I'm on top of my game. I have been kicked in the face by Kung Fu masters that were quicker and had better technique. It's a matter of finding a style that YOU LIKE and YOU CAN LEARN, PRACTICE, and PERFORM with great skill and YOU ENJOY IT.
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Old April 18, 2005, 10:06 PM   #50
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Right now I am studying to master...The Force!!! Can't wait to be able to move huge objects (like X-wing fighters) and stuff.
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