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Old May 2, 2011, 07:01 PM   #201
MLeake
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This is kind of a thread veer, and I apologize in advance.

But with regard to having hands and feet available, as well as one's head... I've noticed that the people I train with in dojos (many of whom are quite good with hands and feet, and some even with their heads) tend to have carry permits, and also tend to actually carry most of the time.

I'd estimate between 2/3 and 3/4 of the brown and black belt equivalents I know, also carry firearms.

A lot of the guys also carry knives, but the majority carry a gun of some kind wherever doing so is legal.

Edit: mnero, I've trained with a lot of cops in various dojos over the years. I've also trained at some LE shooting ranges, where they had agreements with local base security or reserve units. The majority of LEO's are less well trained than you seem to think; there are some very well trained LEO's, who maintain their skills because they want to. But there are very many who only train for minimum standard, both with firearms and at hand-to-hand.

There are many civilians out there who are better at one or both skillsets than the majority of LEO's are.

LEO's, in my experience, tend to be better trained at observing people than the vast majority of civilians; they tend to be better trained at taking charge of a situation, quickly, as far as verbal and non-verbal interaction go. But citing typical LEO training, or even typical military training (I've been through training courses of fire run by all four services, at this point, due to joint and LNO duties when I was on AD) as the ne plus ultra as far as shooting or unarmed combatives go is silly.

Last edited by MLeake; May 2, 2011 at 07:07 PM.
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Old May 2, 2011, 07:04 PM   #202
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M in MD it is very hard to get a cc permit. I do know a couple of guys I train with who do carry, but not many. I have never carried outside the service and have never felt a need to. I do carry a pocket knive, but in MD it better be a short bladed one
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Old May 2, 2011, 07:11 PM   #203
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Something that has not been investigated: Is there a way to stop the train? ( Fire alarm , emergency button )

Is there a powder fire extinguisher on board? This may be a good way to hose the gang down.

Is there a way to get to the operator cabin?
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Old May 2, 2011, 07:59 PM   #204
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You ain't a cop and never have been? You ain't military and never have been? If the answer is yes, to each of these questions and you still claim to be as well trained or better then a street LEO who does this sort of thing for a living, then all I can say is wow, you are a most impressive civilian. If the answer is no then "why did'nt you say so?"
To answer your questions never been a cop or in the military.

And yes my friends and I are better prepared for an armed encounter than most LE officers. I know this because officer training is minimal. I know this because (as I said earlier) I have family in LE.

The variable is how we will react to a life and death struggle. Nobody knows this until it happens to them. What we can control however is the amount and quality of our training. We can develop skill sets that *if used as trained* will increase our chances of survival while decreasing our opponents chances. Things as simple as shooting on the move, using cover, shooting to that cover, creating distance, maintaining separation, weak hand shooting, one armed reloading, tactical reloading, TRB malfunction clearing drill, gun retention shooting, and much much more. Learning the theory behind each to get the full understanding of why they are so important.

Shooting on the move..........to allow your body to give in to the desire to flee. To provide a moving target to your opponent as apposed to a still easy to hit one. To facilitate your trip to cover...etc.

Creating distance........distance equals safety. The greater the distance between you and your adversary the greater the chance for aiming errors by the bad guy to miss your vitals and or body totally.

Tap Rack Bang TRB.........to facilitate a seamless malfunction clearing. To get the gun working again without thought.

Try it some time.
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Old May 2, 2011, 08:32 PM   #205
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I might also add a question for you Mnero. Maybe you will answer one finally.

On what information or evidence are you formulating your assumption that LE are better trained than all civilians?
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Old May 2, 2011, 09:45 PM   #206
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I put my faith in professionals over amatures anytime. They do it for a living. Street LEOs, after a short time, have the kind of experience, most civilians will never have or want. I haven't been in the service since 2000, haven't been over-seas since '91. I still study jujitsu and have since I was a kid, but not so much anymore, I am old and very busy and just had back surgery. Heck I would probably just get someone killed. As for TRB I haven't so much as handled a semi-auto pistol since I was in the service; hate the things. They look like sawed-off T-squares to me; I'm a wheel gun man
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Old May 2, 2011, 10:57 PM   #207
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Gang attack on transit train

I hate crowds, hate subways, metro trains.... not at all fond of malls, etc.
So what do I do for a living--hey, I'm a correctional Officer! In a state prison...
where you're ordinarily surrounded by dozens or hundred of sweet, kind, thoughtful souls and you gotta deal with that because you're locked in there with them. WTSHTF, keep your head. The normally placid prisoner can flip any time, especially when they can gain courage in a crowd.
My experience leads me to agree with Doc Intrepid, three gun, or gearhounds in this situation. Command presence is good, surprise is supreme, and a steady handful of auto-loader is excellent! Whatever you can do to be prepared, if it becomes necessary, to TAKE CONTROL and focus the individual troll's attention on the threat of himself being a real victim--do it and do it with sincerity and without hesitation. Timing is critical, like in comedy. These products of the lower end of the gene pool are subject to fear and terror the same as any one--and if not, that first one will make an excellent object lesson to those that are. Remember they run in gangs for a reason. Keep your head! Look for the opportunity to take control. If you can't take control, then take the high ground, and defend yourself! There-- now you can have the soapbox back!
P.S: I like a hi-cap pistol. I'm old school--my favorite's a Hi-Power. Sweet!
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Old May 3, 2011, 12:50 AM   #208
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In the 30's La started to have a problem with hispanic gangs, who where associated with 'zoot suits'. The Navy had a large base in La at the time and organized what it called a 'dungaree liberty' For those of you not familiar with the Navy, dungarees are the working uniform worn only on ship and on the base, but never in public. Well on this liberty they went around and beat anyone of hispanic appearence wearing one of these 'zoot suits'. It did stop the problem, for a short time and it was, at least, tacitly condoned by the city authorities. I can't say I agree with the indicriminant nature of the assaults, since clearly not every young, hispanic male, wearing a zoot suit in the 30's in La was a gang member. I can say I understand why the military took this unconstitutional measure.
The Zoot Suit riots were a case of white service men attacking brown people because they wore fancy clothes and didn't blend in. The race riot was actively condoned by the CO of the Navy Barracks, the police, and the City. The service men attacked people because of the clothes they wore. It was racism that the authorities attempted to justify by calling teenagers "thugs" because they had big shoulders in their jackets. What happened in Atlanta has no relevance.

"The local press lauded the attacks by the servicemen, describing the assaults as having a "cleansing effect" that were ridding Los Angeles of "miscreants" and "hoodlums"." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoot_Suit_Riots
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Old May 3, 2011, 03:58 AM   #209
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WOW!

To begin to assume that non police civilians have better training than the police is a bit of a stretch.

First off military training is just that. Military. And we all know that the US Military has absoloutly no authority, or control over the U.S. population other than under martial law. Military training other than riot training is geard for combat outside the U.S. MOUT may appear to be applicable to some situations within the US, but would be highly illegal.

For anyone to assume they are better trained than the average police officer is folly. An individual may shoot better than the average police officer at some point, or may practice more often than the average police officer, or may even attend some tactical seminar, or training facility or even be a black belt. There is more to being a police officer than shooting, hut-hut-hut tactics, fighting, and facing down gangs of marauders.

IMO When a Cop gets into a hand to hand situation, the average shooting, must face down a gang, .... or all the above. Ususlly indicates that he/she screwed up somewhere. The primary intent in policing is to deal with a situation so to prevent any or all the above. 99% of the time... Thats what the police do. On the rare occasion an officer must resort to violence there is a lot more going on than his/her annual range/qualification trip. Also in effect is the years of experience as an officer, and civilian life. The benifit of years of experience of the officers who he/she worked with over his/her career. Also the individual officers own innovations and learned problem solving skills.

Contrary to popular belief. Police Officers spend far more time looking for missing children than they do shooting it out or fighting hand to hand. Police spend far more time helping people with domestic problems than they do chasing bad guys through back alley's.

To keep the thread firearms related... Many a cop has faced down all kind of danger with a six shot .38 revolver, and maybe a five shot back-up. A good example is what used to be the NY Transit police. They patrolled alone, from 6pm to 2am in uniform on the NYC Transit system. Carrying 6 shot revolvers, a night stick, and an attitude. Their radio's often didnt work in certain areas, but they did it all the same.

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Old May 3, 2011, 06:23 AM   #210
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Good post Glen!~
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Old May 3, 2011, 06:25 AM   #211
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Da the CO is the one who sent those, boys! After the event he lied! The rest of what you wrote is about the same as I remember reading about it. In history class of course
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Old May 3, 2011, 07:29 AM   #212
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Glen Dee, I think you may have missed my point that the actual advantages most officers have over most civilians are in observation, interaction, and command presence. I do not find that most officers have an advantage in shooting or hand to hand over most serious civilian practitioners.

It seems your last post, for all practical purposes, agreed almost entirely.
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Old May 3, 2011, 08:27 AM   #213
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Glen Dee, I think you may have missed my point that the actual advantages most officers have over most civilians are in observation, interaction, and command presence. I do not find that most officers have an advantage in shooting or hand to hand over most serious civilian practitioners.
Ditto

As a "serious civilian practitioner" my needs are different. I simply have to use Situational Awareness to identify the threat, some reasoning to escape or evade the threat, and if left no option, the appropriate tactics and skill to deliver a threat ending blow.

LE have many other more necessary needs. Most neglect handgun fighting skills and tactics IMO. This has been my experience with LEO friends and family members as well as those LEO's I have knowingly competed against.
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Old May 3, 2011, 08:38 AM   #214
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To begin to assume that non police civilians have better training than the police is a bit of a stretch.
Who assumed this? The training my shooting buddies and I conduct is vastly superior to what the overwhelming majority of LEO's get. That said my friends and I are statistical anomalies compared to other civilians.

I submit to you that LEO's are terribly unprepared for an armed confrontation especially considering the greater likelihood that they need the skill compared to a civilian.

To assume that they are prepared for an armed confrontation simply because they are LE is the stretch IMO.
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Old May 3, 2011, 09:02 AM   #215
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I put my faith in professionals over amatures anytime. They do it for a living. Street LEOs, after a short time, have the kind of experience, most civilians will never have or want.
Anytime? So your faith would go to the LE officer who gets but a very basic firearm training over say a Clint Smith?

You are half way correct though LE get a kind of experience most civilians will never have or want or need. That on the job experience they get rarely includes how to survive a gunfight however.
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Old May 3, 2011, 09:43 AM   #216
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In this situation there was no gun fight! There would only have been a gun fun if someone was foolish enough to start shooting. Threegun IMO you are right about one thing; Police rarely have to use their weapons. My uncle Ernst is 78, still a part time policemen in Eagle river Wis in the summer(resort town) he was afull time cop for many years and never had to shoot at anyone. You know why? Because he was a DAMN GOOD COP! This situation could have benefited from a good cop, but not a civilian who was a good shot! Threegun I don't doubt your skills with a pistol and I don't doubt your skills in a gunfight, at least a mock one. This, however; does not make you better prepared then a street LEO to handle such an unlikely event IMO.
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Old May 3, 2011, 09:48 AM   #217
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mnero, now I can agree with you. I also don't think a gun would have improved this particular situation, and I do think a street cop's other-than-violent skill set would probably have been more useful.

But, we still have some disagreement. I don't really see how military training would be of particular benefit in this case. Any training that enhanced self-discipline, and taught how to stay cool under pressure, is almost always useful - but that is hardly unique to the military.

The only way I'd see military training as a particular asset in a case like this would be if there were several military guys, who were well-trained in coordinated group action.
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Old May 3, 2011, 09:52 AM   #218
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M I agree, I can't imagine how any military training I received would have helped, except of course to 'be cool'. This situation is something the police might have handled better then the two guys who already stepped in, but certainly not the rest of us.
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Old May 3, 2011, 01:29 PM   #219
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Mnero, At some point the argument became whether or not 1 man armed with a handgun (38 snub nose I think) could fend off a group of 25ish gang youth.

Now that we have explained that cops aren't that good with their firearms or necessary tactics you switch the argument back to non firearm related methods for surviving this situation.

I whole heartedly agree that LE would handle most non lethal situations better.

Quote:
In this situation there was no gun fight! There would only have been a gun fun if someone was foolish enough to start shooting.
There wouldn't have been a gunfight had I been on the train either provided the thugs didn't try to beat on me. Its sad that you believe self defense to be foolish.

Quote:
My uncle Ernst is 78, still a part time policemen in Eagle river Wis in the summer(resort town) he was afull time cop for many years and never had to shoot at anyone. You know why? Because he was a DAMN GOOD COP!
A lot of "damn good cops" have been forced to shoot. Seems like luck plays a part as well. A cop forced to shoot is not indicative of bad police work.

Quote:
This, however; does not make you better prepared then a street LEO to handle such an unlikely event IMO.
The facts suggest that your opinion is wrong. Better training almost always trumps lesser training. Precisely why our Navy Seals win most fights they face.....simply the best training in the world.

While great training doesn't always equal guaranteed performance because of the stress factors of a deadly encounter it does improve success for those who are able to overcome the stress to fight. It helps folks fight through the stress. To function on auto pilot.
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Old May 3, 2011, 01:36 PM   #220
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Not sure if this has been said earlier....

But all these people were on their way to a gun free zone at the airport....how ironic.
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Old May 3, 2011, 02:13 PM   #221
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But all these people were on their way to a gun free zone at the airport....how ironic.
Hard to say if that really played into the thinking of this group. Also, just for the record it is legal for a permit holder to carry a firearm in the Atlanta Airport, but obviously not past the secure checkpoints.
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Old May 3, 2011, 02:52 PM   #222
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The training my shooting buddies and I conduct is vastly superior to what the overwhelming majority of LEO's get.
That may be true but what about the other training LEO get? at the acadamy..... it is a lot more brain work than just learn how to shoot a gun

I wouldnt make these claims in front of my cousin ret LEO is my age, he would ask you specific questions you would not be able to answer about police work. He was an accident investigator. Not much gun play there...
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Old May 3, 2011, 03:26 PM   #223
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I'm not sure how relevant skill at investigating accidents would be in a situation like the people on the Marta bus faced. It could be that a police officer might or might not have been better at handling the situation on the bus than a citizen but one does not have to be a police officer to defend themselves. It seems like long odds for anyone facing thirty gang members and unable to flee.
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Old May 3, 2011, 04:50 PM   #224
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Threegun, you and your range buddies; ain't up to police work, you sure as heck ain't up to spec war duty; I would put more trust in a mall cop. At least they are actually professional security
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Old May 3, 2011, 05:49 PM   #225
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That may be true but what about the other training LEO get? at the acadamy..... it is a lot more brain work than just learn how to shoot a gun
I'm not LEO. The other training they get is suited to police work needs. My only obligation is to keep my family and self safe. My training is tailored for that.
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