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Old April 26, 2011, 07:49 PM   #151
threegun
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I haven't NO ONE EVER TOOK A SHOT AT ME or anything else military anyway, but I have seen the results and dishing out death aint no adjative; it is just a bunch of braggin from someone who has deluded himself into thinking he can handle any situation.
I have made no such claims Mnero. I have however spent alot of time on tactical training and part of this training includes understanding the odds you are facing to make better decisions. You should try it.
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Old April 26, 2011, 07:54 PM   #152
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I have, of course. I apologize for jumping on your expression, I disagree with your assesment, but I wasn't on that train.
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Old April 27, 2011, 05:20 PM   #153
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Neither of us were on the train. Neither of us can predict the outcome of an event. We simply cannot predict how different reactions on our part would have changed the outcome. We can however make educated guesses on how an action will be reacted to.

In this example if I thought the badguys would make a determined assault on me even after I opened fire, I would have complied and suffered the beating. Beating being better than death.

You disagree with my assessment. So I assume you believe these guys would not have retreated?
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Old April 27, 2011, 05:23 PM   #154
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Oh no, they may well have; I know I would! However; my primary concern is that many civilians may be hurt(it is hard to avoid collateral damage even when you can identify your target, here that could get difficult as civilians may panic and head towards you) and that the kids(the gang members) here may not be beyond redemption.
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Old April 27, 2011, 05:54 PM   #155
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Oh no, they may well have; I know I would! However; my primary concern is that many civilians may be hurt(it is hard to avoid collateral damage even when you can identify your target, here that could get difficult as civilians may panic and head towards you) and that the kids(the gang members) here may not be beyond redemption.
Our priorities are different I believe. My primary concern IN A LIFE OR DEATH STRUGGLE is for the safety and well being of my family at any and all costs including my death. My second concern is for my safety and well being. My third concern is for my fellow civilians and this only from collateral damage from my firearm.

I know that sounds selfish so be it. Its the truth. Sometimes the truth is hard to stomach.

example.......If your son and my son were swimming together and both began to drown. I could only save one. It would be mine.

Likewise if the choice was shoot and risk potential collateral damage or die.....I must shoot.

Last edited by threegun; April 27, 2011 at 06:20 PM.
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Old April 29, 2011, 01:17 AM   #156
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A riot is one thing but a group of gang members are cowards that’s why the are in a group. One shot and everyone is running away.
If you keep your head, can get to your pistol and have good shot placement under stress, the resulting mess will demoralize these cowards, they will break and run.
You have to have the right gun. The willingness to spend the energy to train properly, constantly, to develop the mussel memory necessary to perform instantly under surprise and have the proper mental attitude to do what is necessary.
Being an instructor for some time now and studying countless after action reports, “gun fighter” vs. bad guy. And I use the term gun fighter as a joke. Most freeze and wet there pants.
I’m so tired of this bluster about “I would do this or that” be the hero, 99% of these, “going to be the hero“ types, don’t have the willingness to spend the energy to train properly, constantly, to develop the mussel memory necessary to perform instantly under stress.
I guarantee one correctly placed shot, (and I don’t mean hitting the innocent) in a timely manner will have these cowards tripping over each other to get the hell out of the way.
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Old April 29, 2011, 01:27 AM   #157
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i have great mussel memory. i had clams last month at an italian place, oh, and oysters and beer a couple of weeks ago. seriously, doesn't anybody see that this occured on a moving subway with no place for anybody to go, good or bad? you're killing me smalls.
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Old April 29, 2011, 03:27 AM   #158
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Be careful...

I have known of two such attacks where people I know were involved.
In both instances, the victim pulled his gun on the attackers and frightened no one. Attackers in groups are usually trying to prove themselves to one another, and if they feel fear they are many times unlikely to show it.
In the one instance, the victim shot one of his attackers and the attacker still persisted.
In the second instance, the victim was met with yells from the attackers to "Pull that s---!"
Luckily, in both cases, the victims got away, barely.
I urge you all to research the case of Gerald Ung, who, while wolf-packed by several bullies, showed his gun, and was forced to unload into one of the assailant's torso.
Had it not been for a security camera that captured the events leading up to the shooting, he would be in jail to this day, because it was the attackers' word against his.
I know... you'd rather be tried by a jury of 12 instead of carried by six, but what way is it to live 20 years in jail for defending yourself?
Just be careful and use good judgement.
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Old April 29, 2011, 04:04 AM   #159
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Thank you Biff for the great illustration of the concept that people WILL advance upon a drawn gun. Not a smart move by any means, but who called some of these folks smart in the first place. Sorry to venture back again against my own word, but geez, how many cases do we need in REAL life to counter the fantasies of folks talking about blowing away 30 at a time that will some how magically run away at the mere sight of a gun. Take a look at the video for real dumb person just walking into a gun to do harm to the shooter. Cowards? No just dumb. The only defense is to avoid the situation in the first place if possible.

http://www.myfoxphilly.com/dpp/news/...oting_01_17_10
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Old April 29, 2011, 07:14 AM   #160
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Anyone who thinks, they could have made a positive contribution to this situation, with an armed confrontation is wasting his talents writing here! The police have openings in their swat teams, and if they don't the military is always looking for a 'few good men' quite a few these days. Stop telling us how well trained and tough you are and go prove it! To those who already are serving either in the police or the military; I admire you for your service and sacrivice, to the rest GET REAL!
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Old April 29, 2011, 04:13 PM   #161
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Anyone who thinks, they could have made a positive contribution to this situation, with an armed confrontation is wasting his talents writing here
But I know a guy has a friend thats dad knows a guy did this twice with a 22 revolver and no reloads so there I read it on the internets.....
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Old April 29, 2011, 04:32 PM   #162
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Hard question to answer. Only because of the quantity (30 vs 1). But knowing myself I would prepare to open fire if I felt my life threatened. Chances are the first hit might just cause the mob to ebb in sudden fear. Maybe some might run, then again maybe some might rush you. If I were to die that day then I have no choice. I am taking several to the Other Side with me.
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Old April 29, 2011, 04:40 PM   #163
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So, if you were on this train and you were carrying how would you have responded?

I’m going to make the assumption that I am alone, no loved ones or people I am responsible for. If I can keep my head. I will move to get as much space as practicable between myself and the assailants. This will better allow me to scan, have to keep my head on a swivel, can’t become mesmerized.
The more space, the more time I have to try to get my head around the situation. Making space hopefully will give me adequate time to safely and effectively accesses my pistol as a last resort.
Distance makes gun retention more manageable and is a prime responsibility.

What if they were attacking you?

This question would indicate that I have been taken completely by surprise, I’m being beaten and under the physical control be several able body men. Let me see now…. 24 against one.
I will do some bleeding, lose conciseness shortly. My gun will be taken from me and possibly used to kill me and several in the car.

What if they were not attacking you would you intervene?

Well there’s terror, at which point I will freeze up and be completely useless. If I can keep my head and this event is a strong arm robbery without to much mayhem than I hope I could be the best witness I could be.
Worst case scenario, with such a great disparity of force and in being in fear of great bodily harm or death than I have no choice.

If I make the decision to carry than I have a reasonability to hit only the threat, and that’s under stress, when nothing is going my way.

Correct, repetitive training and a proper mindset is what will give one a reasonable chance stopping the threat.

With most shooters, the “gun experts” the Hollywood heroes and worst of all the ones that carry, the safest place to be when they start shooting is right in front of them.

It has been my experience that the vast majority of those that carry cant shoot their way out of a wet paper bag and they never train in gun retention.

As I have already said.

Do you have the willingness to spend the energy to train properly, constantly, to develop the mussel memory necessary to perform instantly under surprise, stress and have the proper mental attitude to do what is necessary?
The answer is best summed up by

justjim75
“i have great mussel memory. i had clams last month at an italian place, oh, and oysters and beer a couple of weeks ago.”
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Last edited by Lenord Smalls; April 29, 2011 at 04:46 PM.
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Old April 29, 2011, 06:38 PM   #164
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I might want to reconsider my meager little J frame if I go to Atlanta and ride the MARTA I reckon... and switch to my PLR-16. (I joke... kinda)

Gang of 30, drugs in their system (possibly, you never know but expect the worst), bravado/courage (from their POV), monkey dance = more power than a solo 2A citizen can muster, that's for sure. They win.

Pondering mode on...
How could or does one alter the odds (besides not being there or gaining serious distance)?

Body armor?

OC bomb and a gas mask? (again, I kid... kinda)

Travel in a well armed group of your friends with your own attitude showing? (w/ body armor, gas masks and several OC bombs?) Seems to be the best but 'tis an impractical solution. Maybe. Maybe not.

No matter how you look at it, a hurtin' is involved. Or submission. Or both. And lawsuits to face should I actually, you know, hurt anyone other than myself, be they BGs or innocent bystanders.

A no win. (note to self: avoid MARTA and wilding crowds when possible)
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Old April 29, 2011, 10:35 PM   #165
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Amen Baba Louie! This kind of conversation does kind of make me wonder why I even bother to carry. I don't have a clue what I would have done or would do. The only reason I obtained my CC was because I have been in several situations where I felt very uncomfortable. I would not have been nearly as worried except I had my wife and two little girls on an occasion or two. BTW, this sort of rules out ever going to pro ball games or concerts if we are going to fully avoid public transit or strange crowds. Which, by the way, I have basically stopped going to these events for this type of reason. I carry now because I couldn't bear seeing my girls hurt or killed and at least want to be able to fight if that is in question. But, if I won't pull and shoot I would be better off with no gun....

I have even been a bit uncomfortable returning extremely late on the Disney buses and trains. Strange folks keep these late hours.

So, what is a fella to do?
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Old April 30, 2011, 03:54 AM   #166
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Here's an instance of another train invasion where a passenger did fight back:

http://www.myrepublica.com/portal/in...&news_id=27100

To sum up, a Gurkha soldier armed with a kukri knife fought back against a gang of about 40 robbers invading a passenger train, killing 3 and wounding 8 before the rest fled. I think the story justifies the more levelheaded comments here:

1) He did not draw his weapon until passengers were threatened with serious physical harm. In the MARTA case passengers were beaten, but the article does not make it clear whether or not lives were in danger. It is impossible to tell without actually having been there.

2) Once the fight started, the robbers did NOT back down at the sight of a weapon. They kept fighting for 20 minutes even after some of their own were killed. It's dangerous and arrogant to assume that 'just because they're criminals, they must be cowards'. A defender on the MARTA car may have faced a similar situation at least until the train reached the next stop.

3) The soldier did not even have a gun, but once he made the decision to fight he had a win-or-die mindset. There's been a lot of talk in this thread about capacity and ammo performance, but it seems those things are unimportant next to the mindset: if you have to fight, don't stop until you win.

4) A kukri cannot cause innocent casualties by way of missed shots or ricochet, so the soldier did not have to worry about something that a CCW on the MARTA would DEFINITELY have had to take into consideration. I personally would rather take a beating and lose my wallet than accidentally kill a bystander, or cause one to be killed through my actions.
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Old April 30, 2011, 07:10 AM   #167
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7 punks have been arrested so far in the MARTA attack.
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Old April 30, 2011, 10:06 AM   #168
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Wow! That dude was clearly a 'badass' good training and a good knife can go along way it seems!
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Old April 30, 2011, 10:23 AM   #169
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Training, aggressive defense, and mindset in equal parts. A properly motivated individual with the right weapon can and obviously will succeed against superior numbers. A good blade like a kukri may actually be better than any pistol, as it never jams, or runs out of ammo as long as the bearer has the strength to wield it. Any knife, when weilded with intent will be extremely hard to take away. As I suggested earlier, a good knife/pistol combo would make for a formidable threat that most will shy away from attacking.
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Old April 30, 2011, 10:30 AM   #170
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I like the idea of a pistol/knife combo, that would certainly be a great close quarters weapon!

Last edited by mnero; April 30, 2011 at 10:41 AM.
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Old April 30, 2011, 10:48 AM   #171
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For some reason, probably historically ingrained, knives are truly frightening at an instinctive level. Hell, if the gun runs dry, you have an effective blunt instrument to boot!
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Old April 30, 2011, 07:04 PM   #172
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...knives are truly frightening at an instinctive level.
Everybody knows what it feels like to get cut. Knives are scary in a very practical, concrete way--you can imagine just what getting stabbed or cut would feel if you close your eyes.

Very few people know what it feels like to get shot. Guns are scary in a philosophical way. You KNOW it can seriously injure or kill you, but in your gut you don't really have any idea what that would feel like. And the method by which guns create injuries (little bits of metal propelled at invisible velocities) is too much like magic for people to completely grasp what's going on.
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Old April 30, 2011, 07:16 PM   #173
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That makes a lot of sense John. Before I ever shot a firearm I used to have violent dreams occasionally, but the firearms were always squirt guns or cap guns when i fired them; while the knives were always very real.
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Old April 30, 2011, 10:59 PM   #174
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I like the idea of a pistol/knife combo, that would certainly be a great close quarters weapon!
Or stick/knife... WITH good training, either combo is better than passive nada. Used in the OP topic tho... and maybe with the added courage and action of one or two other riders who are fed up... and seeing you/me being a stupid/brave/decisive "vigilante" (did I spell that right?). When in doubt, attack. right? Well hmmmmm. More than one? Vigilanti?

Which is really the answer. More than one. When the good citizens (plural) get totally fed up, they will and do act. And it ain't pretty from what I read.

You see the young hooligans about to get on, verbally alert "Trouble Coming!" or something then try to get one or two or more other 'refuse to be a victim' riders eyes, quickly determine to back each other with a quick nod... or is everyone looking down and away knowing whats coming? Dunno. Never been there. How fast can you sell an idea to strangers?

Pack or clan/tribe mentality behavior is important for survival. Sometimes you might have to join in or form one of your own for safe travel or even day to day... nothing really new about it, if you think about history at all.

Sometime, the good GUYS (plural) do win. But I'd really really try to avoid that whole situation alone or with vulnerable family nearby if ever I could.

Gun, knife stick and my rugby team all carrying same... (disclaimer... no rugby team) O.K. change that; Cricket or softball team better than rugby in one regard equipment-wise.

But it begins with the mindset.
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Old April 30, 2011, 11:24 PM   #175
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7 punks have been arrested so far in the MARTA attack.
For all the good that will do ..... IF the prosecutor decides it is worth his time, AND IF the perps don't plea out of it, AND IF a non-sympathetic jury can be found, AND IF the judge sees fit to max them out ...... THEN they'll get a full ride scholarship to Street Criminal Finishing School.

Fight Recidivism: STBDRT.

30 of them? They'd definitely get me, if the first dozen or so are suicidal. I'm going to pick a leader, and pour les encouragements des autres....... If they are suicidally brave, they'll also have to avoid slipping on the couple dozen empties rolling around on the floor.
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