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Old April 24, 2011, 06:52 PM   #126
WANT A LCR 22LR
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Somewhere there has to be a reliable source for gang / mob state of mind, I think most of are speculating otherwise. Having a source for info would be a great help. Does Atlanta have a gang task force? If so, what do they have to say about surviving such a attack?

I find it interesting many say not to show fear ( but not escalate by making eye contact ) when engaging a aggressive dog but some here are advising just to give up and comply with a gang. While giving up may work with a gang whose sole purpose is to rob, it isn't going to work with one that is intent on a general beat down as they are going to go for the softest targets.

I'll speculate gangs rely on primal levels of behavior since apparently civilized behavior has not been taught.
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Old April 24, 2011, 07:07 PM   #127
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Check out what happens to violent crime in states that approve concealed carry.
I won't for a second deny that there is very thought-provoking circumstantial evidence, but statistics can be interpreted in many ways.

For example, Metrotown enacts a concealed-carry law. They also beef up community policing initiatives. Crime drops. Can we claim with 100% accuracy that the drop was due to the concealed-carry law? Our opponents will claim the opposite, and either side can claim that the numbers prove them right.

I believe that there's a correlation. But if I'm going to use it in a debate, I need to be sure I can prove it.

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my understanding is that GA is a licensed open carry and licensed CCW state with airport carry restricted, so I'm not sure how this plays out - is it less likely for people to carrying on this particular route?
The current opinion of the current mayor (and that's just as tenuous as it sounds) is that airport carry is legal, at least in non-secure areas. That said, I'm not sure how aware the average person is of that situation.

In any case, MARTA tends to have stations in some pretty colorful areas, and it attracts some colorful folks. While I've seen and heard some pretty weird stuff, violence is relatively uncommon considering the surrounding areas. To be honest, this could have happened anywhere. These guys just happened to pick a MARTA train that night.
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Old April 24, 2011, 07:57 PM   #128
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Having a Rambo mindset is just in the movies, in real life it just doesn't go down like that.

This is interesting because I haven't seen any responses on this thread to be wannabe Rambo, Charles Bronson, Dirty Harry or whatever other cliche might come up. What I do see are people willing to protect themselves from what a reasonable person would assume to be threat of serious bodily injury or death.

Sometimes submission can work, sometimes it will embolden attackers. If a criminal with 29 friend wants my wallet, he can have it. If he wants my wife, well, submission is not an option.

We've all been in "real life" situations. It's not a one-size-fits-all world.
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Old April 24, 2011, 09:03 PM   #129
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Get real folks, a gang of 30!! and we hear of strategies to subdue all 30. Wow. All I can say once again, is good luck.
alaska, 2 guys subdued these bumz without firearms so it can and was done. I know that just proves a firearm wasn't needed? wrong - some of us are just saying we aren't ruling out a firearm. post 126 is a good post(about 2-3 posts ago). these guys are going to sniff fear like a wild dog. while the next passenger who "understands" them if I may be so bold can just "calm" them down. this testosterone isn't about robbing//maybe somewhat but also sometimes as an example a cellphone capturing a beatdown for youtube and their buddies. If I have a choice of saying, "Yes Sir I just don't want any issues" or drawing my ccw I'll take the latter. It would probably be quicker than that anyways. They might just start swinging and ask questions later. I don't buy the argument: if I escalate it I stepped in it and I'm a deadman. the escalation might save my butt. I'll step off the train at that 2nd stop as pointed out already. If not we can meet our maker together. I'll take my chances on another citizen getting my back after I have done my part. I know if you or you or you on this forum drew because you had to in this same exact situation I would be on your side.

all the best

ps- someone mentioned clint:

"The hell with them fellas. Buzzards got to eat, same as the worms." Some people are just not willing to be a victim. That doesn't mean we're going to draw when its not a good idea. I'll trust my gut with the odds in my head+roll the dice. that's all I can do in this exact situation.

pps-the movie thing is just a 'play' on the movie saga going on in this thread...
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Old April 24, 2011, 09:14 PM   #130
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alaska, 2 guys subdued these bumz without firearms so it can and was done. I know that just proves a firearm wasn't needed? wrong - some of us are just saying we aren't ruling out a firearm. post 126 is a good post(about 2-3 posts ago). these guys are going to sniff fear like a wild dog. while the next passenger who "understands" them if I may be so bold can just "calm" them down. this testosterone isn't about robbing//maybe somewhat but also sometimes as an example a cellphone capturing a beatdown for youtube and their buddies. If I have a choice of saying, "Yes Sir I just don't want any issues" or drawing my ccw I'll take the latter. It would probably be quicker than that anyways. They might just start swinging and ask questions later. I don't buy the argument: if I escalate it I stepped in it and I'm a deadman. the escalation might save my butt. I'll step off the train at that 2nd stop as pointed out already. If not we can meet our maker together. I'll take my chances on another citizen getting my back after I have done my part. I know if you or you or you on this forum drew because you had to in this same exact situation I would be on your side.
Likewise, so would I be at your side as well. Holding onto your trump card until the last possible moment of avoidance is the real issue which may have actually happened in this case. Yes, by all means, stand your ground if needed, just recognize you are on vary shaky ground no matter what your response.

God bless, Alaska
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Old April 24, 2011, 09:32 PM   #131
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alaska, 2 guys subdued these bumz without firearms so it can and was done. I know that just proves a firearm wasn't needed? wrong - some of us are just saying we aren't ruling out a firearm.
These kids were wilding, acting as bullies and they hesitated when confronted. Now the case that I keep referring to in an all out attack by 8 thugs in Idaho where the man shot two and then was overtaken by the rest. So much for being able to take out the first 5 and then the next ten as many have commented. In an all out attack where physical harm is meant, not just a bunch of creepy kids acting tough, I don't see the gun doing you any better than it did the person in Idaho.

In addition, he was arrested and initially charged with attempted murder which was later dropped after the grand jury failed to indict him. Not sure why everyone keeps over looking this real example of serious intent to do harm and men actually continuing to press the attack even after he backed up, warned them twice and then started shooting away. Multiply the 8 to 30 and now we are talking Rambo type of tactics to overcome that mob. My vote is that you will fail if you try in such a no win situation. Probably better to run and seek refuge if possible. Might help you avoid a whole lot of legal problems, both civil and criminal. Take a look at the follow up to where he stands now.

http://www.cdapress.com/news/local_n...4d03a1ebb.html
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Old April 24, 2011, 10:53 PM   #132
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From the repeatedly posted article above, this is the guy attacked by things outside a bar at 12:30 am:

Johnson was located in a bedroom, where police also found a syringe loaded with a brown liquid that police believe was heroin

A 27-year-old North Idaho man, who was involved in a downtown Coeur d'Alene shooting incident in December 2009, has now been arrested for suspected drug activities.

A few months ago, Johnson was charged with carrying a concealed weapon while under the influence, which is a misdemeanor. That charge is connected to the shooting incident.

May not have been he most level-headed person to begin with. Doesn't really help your argument.
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Old April 24, 2011, 10:59 PM   #133
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Fair enough folks, I will relent. I post a real life situation where the attackers advanced on a retreating and warning and firing CCW holder. Yeah, he wasn't the smartest animal we have in the CCW ranks, but this is a real life event of advancing AGAINST gunfire, something I have been told on this thread a dozen times over won't happen. Well, it did, plain and simple no matter how you wish to argue with the facts.

In any case, I join the others that have no argument to win here folks, I mean why argue with the facts. Just posting a real life incident to counter the fantasies presented by quite a few on how people will simply stop their attack because you have a gun and actually using it. I part this thread only to say, good luck if you feel secure in that situation with one gun against 30 thugs wishing to do you harm, yes, good luck.

God bless,

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Old April 25, 2011, 08:22 AM   #134
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Dishing death, that's a goodin there threegun, LOLOLOLOLOLOL>
You gonna advance on someone shooting at you? I know I'm not unless my kids or wife would benefit.

Are you convinced yet that the overwhelming majority of gang or group attacks retreat when shots are fired?
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Old April 25, 2011, 08:27 AM   #135
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threegun, people have been known to do it.

You do realize Alaska444 did prison ministry, and has firsthand experience with the types of people being discussed, right?

I think we've all read about BG's advancing on guns.

I think we've all seen COPS or America's Wildest etc where BG's have engaged and advanced on multiple cops, with shots fired.

And that's dealing with a single BG vs multiple good guys, not 30 BG's vs 1.

I suspect Alaska444 is closer to the mark about what would happen than you are. As others have noted, it's a moving train. Where are the kids going to go?

Not to say, don't defend yourself if actually attacked. Just saying, I wouldn't initiate anything unless I was convinced it had come down to that.

The only situation where I would, involves Al Qaeda or Taliban types, since I'd rather not end up on video getting my head cut off. I think you'll find most of us who work in areas where those guys are have that mindset over there, since we're pretty sure we wouldn't survive capture for long.

But in the US, or most other places? De-escalate where possible.
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Old April 25, 2011, 08:59 AM   #136
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Tom,
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I won't for a second deny that there is very thought-provoking circumstantial evidence, but statistics can be interpreted in many ways.

For example, Metrotown enacts a concealed-carry law. They also beef up community policing initiatives. Crime drops. Can we claim with 100% accuracy that the drop was due to the concealed-carry law? Our opponents will claim the opposite, and either side can claim that the numbers prove them right.
The entire State of Florida saw its murder rate drop by 40 percent following their passing our concealed law. Now unless the entire State increased enforcement (which they didn't BTW) the only thing that changed was more armed civilians.

In Texas murder rates dropped 50 percent faster than the national average. Rape fell 93 percent faster than the national average. Better policing? Coincidence? To you perhaps.

To contrast crime is significantly higher in states without right to carry laws. Using your logic these areas never "beef up" community policing. If I recall Clinton funded more police for some of these anti gun states. So it didn't help them as you suggest.
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Old April 25, 2011, 09:50 AM   #137
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Mleake,

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I think we've all read about BG's advancing on guns.
Sure and I have a home invasion attack on one of the owners of the shop that I work as proof of it. In this case he shot and killed one of the three bad guys before the other two overwhelmed him and disarmed him. He was shot in the leg and beaten terribly but survived.

Video evidence does however overwhelmingly show that most multi person attackers flee when armed resistance is brought to bear.

In some cases (my boss's case is one) the close proximity of the bad guys to the victim gives them a good chance at surviving if they pounce. This isn't the same as running across the length of a train while climbing over the bodies of your buddies to get to the guys shooting.

I'm not trying to suggest that 1 guy armed with a handgun would survive an attack by 30 determined attackers. You guys keep mixing the two. Most attackers are not determined they are simply opportunists.

In the fort hood shooting the bad guy was able to fend off hundreds of young soon to be soldiers confined in a small area. Why? Because no one wants to advance on death. I takes a special motivation or brain defect to do so.
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Old April 25, 2011, 05:54 PM   #138
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Well, the police have arrested two adults and one juvenile in these attacks. They are also looking for one additional adult and another juvenile.

MARTA is disputing many of the facts previously reported in this case including eye witness reports. As I mentioned in another post there is an upcoming vote to increase taxes to fund an expansion of MARTA into other communities around Atlanta. So, it appears a little damage control is in play.


http://www.ajc.com/news/atlanta/mart...in-924351.html
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Old April 25, 2011, 07:24 PM   #139
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Why is it that a bear would never attack a badger?

A bear CAN kill a badger, if it wants to. But it's going to take some damage in the process. A torn-up paw is not at all a good exchange for a slightly oversize weasel for lunch.

Human predators are usually no different. Note the "usually". Drugs or booze can change the rules in a hurry.

Anyways. I know I *did* back down four under similar circumstances. Thirty might be another matter but they'll have to wade through the gore of the first six to get to me.
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Old April 25, 2011, 09:16 PM   #140
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P.S. I've spent enough time in and around Fulton, Cobb, DeKalb & Gwinnett counties to know what folks there say "MARTA" actually stands for!
(I went to Ga. Tech - that's been around for quite some time)

I would suspect that when shots started the noise would be deafening and scary that some of the misguided youths would be trying to vacate the area
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Old April 25, 2011, 10:21 PM   #141
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"Advancing on Death"

threegun wrote:
Quote:
In the fort hood shooting the bad guy was able to fend off hundreds of young soon to be soldiers confined in a small area. Why? Because no one wants to advance on death. It takes a special motivation or brain defect to do so.
Well, I thank God that there do exist those who have that "special motivation". They are those who run toward the sound of guns, or into a burning building. That's why they're described with words like finest and bravest.

And I'm thinking of one particular group whose creed compels them to advance on death; they've often been accused of having a "brain defect" that causes them to act that way; perhaps that's why they're sometimes called [I]"Uncle Sam's Misguided Children"!

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Old April 26, 2011, 12:38 AM   #142
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Because no one wants to advance on death. I takes a special motivation or brain defect to do so.
In some cases, a fire cracker and pointing your finger might do the job. Once they hear what they think is shot's fired, they are not going to take a second look to see what gun your holding if any.
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Old April 26, 2011, 01:29 PM   #143
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Well, I thank God that there do exist those who have that "special motivation". They are those who run toward the sound of guns, or into a burning building. That's why they're described with words like finest and bravest.

And I'm thinking of one particular group whose creed compels them to advance on death; they've often been accused of having a "brain defect" that causes them to act that way; perhaps that's why they're sometimes called "Uncle Sam's Misguided Children"!
Agreed, Thank God for those brave men and women who have that special motivation be it for love of country or love of fellow citizens.

My brain defect comment was pointed at folks with actual defective brains or folks under the influence of narcotics or alcohol.
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Old April 26, 2011, 01:51 PM   #144
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As for those thugs, . . . I'd have been in condition orange when I first laid eyes on the bunch, . . . would have covertly drawn, . . . and if I went down, . . . you can bet your last bippy there would have been a pile of MT .45 brass nearby, . . .
Knowing gang mentality, . . . there is most likely less than a 50/50 that I would have survived, . . . but if you gotta go, . . . take some of the opposition with you.
Gotta go with Dwight on this one. With a 50/50 or so chance of survival as they approach me, especially if the wife's with me, it's game on, and Lord help me.
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Old April 26, 2011, 02:52 PM   #145
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One thing most folks who do not ride subways seems to miss, your ability to get up and move to another car quickly; your ability to activate an emergency stop which can cause enough discombobulation to allow you to exit stage right quickly; most transit systems typically have a roving cop on board - activating an emergency stop gets his attention and that of the conductor immediately.

Soooooooooooo, there MIGHT be alternative strategies that can be employed besides looking at it as a banzai mission
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Old April 26, 2011, 03:02 PM   #146
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Talked to a police officer (Detroit area) today about gangs. His comments:

"Gang members do not fear handguns, if I have to deal with them, I take the AR, the AR15 they respect."

Briefed him on the subway/train incident and asked him what he would have done had he been in plain clothes (off-duty) on the MARTA train.

"Don't know, can't say till I've lived thru it."
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Old April 26, 2011, 03:28 PM   #147
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Want to cool it on the chest pounding, death cult, blah, blah - stay with the tactical issue.

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Old April 26, 2011, 04:52 PM   #148
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It's the language Threegun "dishing death" no buddy that has ever actually been there would talk like that
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Old April 26, 2011, 06:42 PM   #149
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It's the language Threegun "dishing death" no buddy that has ever actually been there would talk like that
It was an adjective Mnero. One I used to attempt to explain my point that few desire to advance on potential life ending danger. Especially while it is actively doing so. I used machine gun nest and you missed the point and focused on actual machine gun nests. So call it what you wish to call it just understand the point which is FEW PEOPLE RUN TOWARD MORTAL DANGER. That means MOST PEOPLE RUN FROM THAT DANGER. That means almost any gun will do for the situation in this thread.


BTW Most folks I know who have been there don't tell everybody every three seconds either
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Old April 26, 2011, 07:26 PM   #150
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I haven't NO ONE EVER TOOK A SHOT AT ME or anything else military anyway, but I have seen the results and dishing out death aint no adjative; it is just a bunch of braggin from someone who has deluded himself into thinking he can handle any situation.
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