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Old April 23, 2011, 08:49 PM   #101
MLeake
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I'm just happy I wasn't there. I'd have wanted to help the guys who were getting beaten up, and like to think I'd have stepped in as did the two Samaritans, but I would have been doing my best to intervene without escalating things.

For those who say, "Just don't take the train late at night," I agree. But I don't currently work for an airline, and don't have to work around their schedule. Not sure about Delta's flight attendant payscale, or the seniority of the flight attendants who were attacked, or if they were Delta mainline or with a Delta feeder like ASA.

Thing is, if they were relatively junior, and working for a feeder, those guys probably only make $15-20K, and can't afford to take a cab. (I was a regional pilot for a brief period, and trust me the pay is horrible.) They're kind of stuck with MARTA.
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Old April 23, 2011, 09:19 PM   #102
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Sometimes, youngguns, but not this time. No one can be sure how they would react, since we were not there, but it sounds like a no win situation.
Another point to consider is that, for every one Audie Murphy, there are ten guys who got their CMH posthumously.
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+1 Agreed.
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Old April 23, 2011, 11:28 PM   #103
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Alaska444 - you can't always avoid a battle. Sometimes it comes your way no matter what you do. Then you make decisions based on the circumstances.
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Old April 23, 2011, 11:45 PM   #104
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I don't think Alaska is saying he would cower in a corner, no matter what; I think he was saying it was gonna go bad, no matter what.
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Old April 24, 2011, 12:11 AM   #105
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I don't think Alaska is saying he would cower in a corner, no matter what; I think he was saying it was gonna go bad, no matter what.
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+1 Agreed once again. Several folks have correctly stated that this is a situation that you will be hard placed to control, period. Cower?? Sorry, not my point that I don't see a winning outcome in this situation. Can I avoid subway systems? You bet. Can all folks, no, but there are things that you can do mitigate that such as the time of day as some have already pointed out. The speculations on how these creeps will react is laughable to anyone that has spent time with them as I have for several years.

You must remember that many of these creeps are more frightened by members of their own gang more so than by anyone else. In addition, many of these gangs have incredible military style discipline especially in the prison system. Stating you can pull a gun and scare a crowd of 30 on a train car with no where to go may not be the way it goes down at all. I have seen the scars on these folks and that gives a bit of the story of how they live, day in and day out. Once again, look at the Pelican Bay riots where 16 inmates were shot, one killed and it took over 30 minutes to settle things down. We are simply talking about a total foreign civilization to the majority of law abiding Americans.

I would definitely back down if someone has a gun pointed at me, but I don't see any of these creeps backing down even one inch when I was with them in prison. They simply don't think the same way normal folks think and many of them have little to live for and depend on bravado for their reputations. I used to preach to 30 or 40 in one room where I had no absurd preconceptions that they couldn't overcome me at any time that they wanted to. Ask a prison guard who is in control of the prison, you might find an interesting answer to that question. Simply put, they are a different animal than the ordinary dog so to speak.

Lastly, I go back to the gang attack from 2009 in Idaho I posted before where the person shot two and then was beaten severely by the remaining 6. Why didn't they back down? Why didn't they run away? Why didn't he blast away and zombie them all into submission. Get real folks, a gang of 30!! and we hear of strategies to subdue all 30. Wow. All I can say once again, is good luck.
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Old April 24, 2011, 12:36 AM   #106
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Some how 10 + 1 .45 with another 10 on stand by I would think the
rest would run.
When I first started CC I would be ready to help in this scenario...
However now a days with the risk of law suit or a bad ruling,
My gun is just for me and my fam.I would think if you are riding
public transit every one I see should be armed.

But to answer the question.....I see the mob I turn around draw the weapon
put it behind my back.If approached I talk like I'm deaf and tell them that I am
deaf.
And if strong armed.....shoot to kill.
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Old April 24, 2011, 08:50 AM   #107
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Fuhgeddabout "drawing"...

I'd think that, much as one should try to avoid gunplay [what a strange word, eh?], riding the subway late at night (or any other potentially perilous situation) might be a good excuse to employ the "Kojak carry".

Although this is a case of "life imitating art" (like the "Kojak light" used on otherwise unmarked cars), it's a very real tactic that happened to be best illustrated by a TV cop.

The Kojak carry consists of having the gun already in your hand, usually in a coat pocket. It's best employed with a snubby revolver so you can shoot right through the pocket if necessary (a semi-auto's slide will likely be impeded by the pocket and it won't cycle fully).

Kojak (who was said to be based on real-life legendary NYPD Chief of Detectives Albert Seedman) always had his revolver already in his hand in his coat pocket when going into a situation.

Similarly, Massad Ayoob tells that, as a cop making a traffic stop, he would have his duty weapon holstered and a snubby in his weak hand, inside a pocket.

I think if I had to ride public transit late at night I'd have my hand in my pocket for the entire ride.
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Old April 24, 2011, 10:06 AM   #108
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Alaska, I advice that we refrain from posting in this thread. We are wasting our time, this thread has turned into an opportunity for the 'kids' to stroke their guns and tell us how tough they are
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Old April 24, 2011, 10:10 AM   #109
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To the several posters who wrote that once some of the gang had been shot, the rest would run.

I ask: where would they run?

The physical limitations that existed prevented anyone running away. Everyone was on a moving train. The doors could not be opened. Even at the next stop after the start of the violence, the doors would not open. So everyone was trapped on the train until the second stop when the doors opened.

Consider the mindset of the gang members. They would rather die than back down. There you are, trapped in a train car with 25 or 30 violent gang members. You have a gun. If you shoot are you drawing attention to yourself to the exclusion of all others. Attention that demands the gang kill you? Even if you had 30 rounds, fired those and disabled 15 or 20 gang members; that would leave you with an empty gun, and 5 or 10 gang members duty bound to kill you and plenty of time to do so.

Can you say "dinner bell"?
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Old April 24, 2011, 11:17 AM   #110
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Isn't it funny, IF all law abiding citizens carried guns on the train,

those guys wouldn't have the marbles to pull this crap.

But the law regulates away citizen's guns, and now

Aunt Marge can't even take a subway in peace.
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Old April 24, 2011, 11:21 AM   #111
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These clowns were shouting their "war cry" as they charged onto the train. Had they been stopped right then and there, as they should have been, they'd have had their exit path no problem.
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Old April 24, 2011, 12:30 PM   #112
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A related question

Let's say you're cc and you're on that subway car. However, the gang is focused on someone else who has drawn his weapon and is proceeding to overwhelm that person even though he has fired and taken down several BGs. What do you do? Do you draw too and back up the poor guy as he's about to be taken down? What's the law on that? Not only is there a life in balance but once he's overpowered, there is now a weapon to account for in the subway car. Is there such a thing as an anticipatory response to prevent a bad situation from getting worse? Or is the law written in such a way that even if you're in that situation, you have to be the focus of the attack before you can deploy? In which case, instead of...say 4-5 people presenting a united front, even people who are armed get taken down piecemeal.
I'm not saying go Bronson at the drop of a hat. I'm just wondering what happens when you're in an enclosed space like that and such a situation but that threat just hasn't reached you.....yet.
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Old April 24, 2011, 12:45 PM   #113
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Isn't it funny, IF all law abiding citizens carried guns on the train, those guys wouldn't have the marbles to pull this crap.
There's actually very little causal evidence to show that civilian carry discourages crime.

Quote:
Had they been stopped right then and there, as they should have been, they'd have had their exit path no problem.
That assumes I've got the world's most acute situational awareness and incredibly cat-like reflexes. It also assumes that they'll be deterred by the gunshots.

Quote:
Or is the law written in such a way that even if you're in that situation, you have to be the focus of the attack before you can deploy?
Many states now have statues that allow for shooting in defense of others, particularly when the threat is as clear as you've described. Even if they didn't, a prosecutor would have a hard time in all but the most Blue of states finding a jury that'd convict.
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Old April 24, 2011, 01:32 PM   #114
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<<my Quote from a prior post:
If no one fights back while being robbed, what prevents the thieves from striking again. . ( and again ) ? >>

( the reply )
"" The legal use of deadly force is there to allow law-abiding citizens to protect themselves from violent criminals. It was not instituted to stop repeat offenses nor as punishment for criminals nor as a means for the law-abiding to take their revenge on criminals.

Unless the defender reasonably believes that deadly force is immediately needed to prevent a violent crime that is likely to result in serious injury or death then it's almost certainly not legal to use deadly force. ""


I should of have worded this differently. " If no one fights back while being robbed, what DETERS the thieves from striking again. . ( and again ) ? "

If a mugger knows the target will give up willingly, is there any reason for them not to attack? It sure isn't the fear of being caught.

On this and other boards there is talk of how anti PD countries suffer from a high crime rate. Apparently this is due to the lack of citizens being able to defend themselves with a hand gun or other means.

Another post in this thread spoke of dealing with the near term threat ( having a wallet taken ) before dealing with a long term somewhat uncertain threat ( the mugger using the info to come to your home ) . Sure, one must survive the day but, at some point one must draw a line in the sand.
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Old April 24, 2011, 02:17 PM   #115
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I suspect that all that carry have mentally already drawn lines in the sand so to speak for different scenarios. That is not the question in this case. The question is how to best SURVIVE in this situation and sometimes using your tongue and fast talking is better than a fast draw. Other options are avoidance. I find the most useful information on this thread that a gang of 30 thugs did this. To me, that takes MARTA or other similar types of transit off the list.

For those that must use these forms of travel, mitigate the risk as much as possible by traveling with more than one person, 3-4 is better than one in such a situation, especially if all are armed. 4 men pulling weapons on 30 thugs makes it a more fair fight and one that is possibly winnable.

One lone gunman standing up against 30 men that may or may not be armed is probably not a matter of courage, it may instead be a matter of foolishness. Even the example someone posted on earlier of Massad Ayoob throwing a fiver to keep from going further and escalating into a deadly force situation is just one example of using the tongue instead of using deadly force.

In addition, who is going to be in your line of fire? Can you identify who are gang bangers and who are just kids on the subway with you? All bravado aside, this is not the situation that one gun on your hip is designed to deliver you. Protecting your gun from the creeps and keeping it out of view is your first and best option in this situation. If the creeps evolve into a deadly force against you or someone else, what is there to lose, but do so knowing that your motive now is to take as many with you as you can, and not hope that you will walk away unharmed.
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Old April 24, 2011, 03:09 PM   #116
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I suspect that all that carry have mentally already drawn lines in the sand so to speak for different scenarios.
Yep, and that worries me. We can't predict how things will unfold in real life. It's usually far messier and quicker than any of the academic scenarios we discuss.

This was a sudden, unpredictable situation, and I don't see how I alone could have solved it if I was there. I've seen fatal gunshot wounds. I'm really in no hurry to do that to anybody, even if I'm "right" or "justified." It may stink, but there are times when appeasement is better than escalation.
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Old April 24, 2011, 03:42 PM   #117
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This was a sudden, unpredictable situation, and I don't see how I alone could have solved it if I was there. I've seen fatal gunshot wounds. I'm really in no hurry to do that to anybody, even if I'm "right" or "justified." It may stink, but there are times when appeasement is better than escalation.
Yep. Sometimes, life just sucks.
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Old April 24, 2011, 03:54 PM   #118
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Quote:
I suspect that all that carry have mentally already drawn lines in the sand so to speak for different scenarios.
Yep, and that worries me. We can't predict how things will unfold in real life. It's usually far messier and quicker than any of the academic scenarios we discuss.

This was a sudden, unpredictable situation, and I don't see how I alone could have solved it if I was there. I've seen fatal gunshot wounds. I'm really in no hurry to do that to anybody, even if I'm "right" or "justified." It may stink, but there are times when appeasement is better than escalation.
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Great comment. I am glad that my life isn't going to be judged alone by what I had "accomplished" by the time I was 20. You can only pray that the creeps that did this in the opening post get a whole lot smarter before it is too late for them. Taking human life is no easy matter, but those of us that carry already must have the mindset that we would use it in the "gravest extreme."

In this case, keeping the gun to yourself and looking for ways to de-escalate the situation is the first order. Pulling a gun could end in a complete disaster for many not the least of which is the person pulling the pistol in the first place. Having a Rambo mindset is just in the movies, in real life it just doesn't go down like that.

I believe that this thread is one of the better scenarios to consider in the presence of overwhelming numbers. I wonder if there have been expert opinions on what to do in this situation. I would certainly like to hear what someone like Massad Ayoob would do in a like situation. I suspect the last resort would be to pull his weapon.
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Old April 24, 2011, 03:55 PM   #119
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Jim March, the problem with your suggestion, IMO, is this:

These were 13-18 year old kids. Not saying they weren't all POS's, but my first thought with a group of teenagers yelling something I'd never heard would have been that it was a school or team thing. I'd have no idea what "BFPL!" meant if the newspaper hadn't told me.

Last time I saw a group of teenagers acting weird, they were a bunch of middle eastern kids who came into a restaurant, all dressed up in black costumes. They were late teen/young adult age. Worried the staff a bit. One of the waitstaff asked me if I had a gun, because she was a bit scared of them. (I was a regular, she was a friend.)

Turned out to be a dance group of some sort. But they looked kind of ninja'ed out in what they were wearing.

So my point is, it might not have been clear that these kids on MARTA were a true threat, until they were already on the train.

And I'd have felt really bad if I'd preemptively shot, or even drawn down on, a middle eastern dancer just to be on the safe side...
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Old April 24, 2011, 04:16 PM   #120
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It seems a mistake to me to assume that these 'gangbangers' are cowards. My old man used to say to me 'everyone always says stand up to bullies cause they are cowards at heart, but I am telling you to beware of bullies and take them down first and fast cause they usually are dangerous' course he was assuming a one on one situation at a school.
Nobody said to assume cowardice. I was just pointing out what all the video's of similar scenarios suggest not to mention my own event. Very few humans are willing to advance on someone dishing death. This include many a man who would separate your head from your shoulders bare handed. This is why I believe any repeating firearm would have been sufficient to overcome the odds and survive the event.
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Old April 24, 2011, 04:49 PM   #121
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The moment a group that size actions violently, I'm going to start unloading my gun for real. They very, VERY likely started the assault part early on, as they were boarding the train. That's the usual style of a "wolfpack attack".

In that event, based on what I've seen and studied regarding that sort of attack, yes, I'm prepared to kill minors. That's a pre-set decision: mass attack, serious counter-attack.
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Old April 24, 2011, 05:02 PM   #122
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This guy has the answer. Listen to his last comment: "Run for your life." LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79FT8bpL2pc
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Old April 24, 2011, 05:03 PM   #123
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There's actually very little causal evidence to show that civilian carry discourages crime.
Check out what happens to violent crime in states that approve concealed carry. It goes down. When convicted burglars are asked what they fear most its an armed home owner followed by a big dog.

There isn't plenty of evidence but what evidence there is its pretty obvious.

http://www.concealedcampus.org/pdf/ccw_gun_facts.pdf
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Old April 24, 2011, 06:07 PM   #124
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This has me wondering, my understanding is that GA is a licensed open carry and licensed CCW state with airport carry restricted, so I'm not sure how this plays out - is it less likely for people to carrying on this particular route? I don't know. I know this is only one story and statistically insignificant, but it does have me wondering. Georgia being a carry state, it didn't seem to deter these thugs.

Well maybe more people will start carrying...
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Old April 24, 2011, 06:19 PM   #125
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Dishing death, that's a goodin there threegun, LOLOLOLOLOLOL>
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