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Old April 22, 2011, 06:16 PM   #76
Jim March
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I lost a good freind to an armed robber years ago. He "gave up" too. Took a 22 right behind the ear at contact range for it.

No. Sorry, "your money or your life" is not a new social contract. I will do my absolute best to put very serious bullets into anybody who says that to me, until they stop saying it or forever can't.
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Old April 22, 2011, 06:19 PM   #77
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Well, they could probably kill, cripple, or maim you now, or they might come by your house later.... In military terms, deal with the 5 meter threat before engaging the 15 meter threat.

However, this does bring up the possible tactic of carrying a throwdown wallet, that doesn't have a real ID, credit cards, or anything linking to your home or person. Some cash and a fake credit card... I'd say fake ID, but that might not be legally kosher.

Throwdown wallets or money-clips have been recommended in various overseas travel security briefings as things people might want in higher crime areas.

I don't have one myself, but it's not a bad idea.
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Old April 22, 2011, 06:28 PM   #78
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my youth really shows in times like this...and I know im green to..but I have to say neat to the above post...never thought of that...pretty smart idea..I also dnt know about the fake idea...I bet it would probably be up to the cop..I mean u could have your name on there as john doe or something obvious that a hasty criminal might now catch but a gun store checkin a back ground or a cop would see in a second
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Old April 22, 2011, 09:18 PM   #79
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WWMAD? (What would Massad Ayoob do?)

Quote:
MLeake: "Throwdown wallets or money-clips have been recommended in various overseas travel security briefings as things people might want in higher crime areas."
Massad Ayoob, in "In the Gravest Extreme" (anybody here who has not yet read it, go get a copy right now!) advocated having a $5 dollar bill wrapped around a matchbook (to give it heft so you can toss it to someone still several feet away). He says:
Quote:
If I encounter a bunch of punks I can't avoid by crossing the street, and if they give me a lot of jive, I'll toss the fiver to the ringleader...I'll tell him I don't want any trouble, and suggest he buy the boys a round of beers on me.
Maybe it won't work. Maybe it'll just whet his appetite to go for my wallet. I'm betting that it will satisfy the ego need that drove him to confront me. You may think it's a [Charlie Sierra] approach. Maybe it is. I only know that it's easily worth 5 or 10 bucks to me not to have to shoot somebody.
That book was copyrighted in 1980. Allowing for inflation, the minimum today would be $20, and even that might not do it. But the idea of a throwaway wallet, with some cash and "credit cards", might still be sound, if only to give credence to your claim (should you survive!) that you tried to comply rather than escalate the situation.
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Old April 22, 2011, 09:33 PM   #80
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So I'd give them Tom Servo's wallet, and hope they left relatively peaceably.
Yep, in fact...hey, wait a minute! Let's not be so hasty...

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I only know that it's easily worth 5 or 10 bucks to me not to have to shoot somebody.
Precisely. If I draw, I may be escalating the situation from a strong-arm flash mob to an outright massacre. The plain fact is, there are far too many variables. Presentation of a weapon might stop or mitigate the violence, or it may make things worse. Firing might work, or it might exacerbate things. My actions could end up getting people hurt who otherwise wouldn't have been.

I'm going to do everything I can before I decide for myself. I'm certainly going to do it before I arbitrarily decide it for everyone else on the car.

I worry that some of the more cavalier attitudes about violence betray a lack of training and experience. Some of us have done brain detail. Trust me, it's no fun to see, and I imagine less fun to inflict.
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Old April 22, 2011, 10:06 PM   #81
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As a greying white male I never take mass transit and I avoid gangs/groups of young minorities.

If I were in the big city, there's no way I'm getting myself on or in something I can't extricate myself from, that being said, I would have; retreated to put space between me and them, drawn, brandished, then fired on the first one that advanced (and as many rounds as it took to stop the advance), after the smoke cleared, if I'm still alive, I would call an attorney, then 911.

I would end up broke and maybe incarcerated (sad we've come to that) but I would be alive.
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Old April 22, 2011, 10:21 PM   #82
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Great post Tom Servo. The bravado I am sure is simply that. Push comes to shove, in a life and death situation, you would be forced to pull at some point, but the urge to resist and seek alternative choices is paramount. As several have stated, it would be a no-win situation at best.

Best way is to avoid it in the first place. If you have no choice but to ride MARTA, then all bets are off.
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Old April 22, 2011, 10:29 PM   #83
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If no one fights back while being robbed, what prevents the thieves from striking again. . ( and again ) ?
The legal use of deadly force is there to allow law-abiding citizens to protect themselves from violent criminals. It was not instituted to stop repeat offenses nor as punishment for criminals nor as a means for the law-abiding to take their revenge on criminals.

Unless the defender reasonably believes that deadly force is immediately needed to prevent a violent crime that is likely to result in serious injury or death then it's almost certainly not legal to use deadly force.
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You do not draw your weapon unless you intend to fire it after a short warning. If you don't intend to fire, leave it in the holster until you do, period.
I've seen this statement made several times and I would modify it as follows.

You do not draw your weapon unless you either immediately need to fire it or unless it appears that you will very soon need to fire it AND you are willing to fire it should the need arise. If you do not believe that you need to fire or that you will likely need to fire it very soon, then leave it in the holster until you do.

In at least some areas (e.g. TX) it is legal to draw and display your firearm as a deterrent before the full criteria for the use of deadly force has been met. Obviously firearms do not always serve as deterrents, but they frequently do. And if they don't, they offer the ability to immediately transition to a deadly force response if things don't de-escalate.

Obviously one should never draw a firearm unless the situation is dire and it appears that deadly force is either immediately necessary or very likely will be necessary imminently. And if they are not willing to use it should it become necessary to do so they would be much better off leaving it at home.

I would let this pass but I'm starting to get worried that people will begin to think that they can't draw until they absolutely have to fire or that if they draw they have to fire. Most self-defense encounters involving a defender with a firearm are resolved because the firearm's deterrent value ends the encounter without a shot being fired. We shouldn't DEPEND on that for safety nor should we display a firearm if we aren't willing and able to use it, but it would be sad for gun-owners to think that they aren't allowed to take advantage of such a valuable tool given its obviously impressive track record.
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Old April 22, 2011, 10:38 PM   #84
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As well as fearing for my life, I would be afraid this gang would

get access to my SD weapon, which would endanger MORE lives...

.. as Sgt. York put it, "I figure I was saving lives by killing those (must have

been White Anglo Saxon Protestants,right?) guys."

Last edited by therewolf; April 23, 2011 at 08:00 AM.
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Old April 23, 2011, 12:10 AM   #85
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But where are the other passengers? Can I safely or ethically open fire?

..........Then again, if I were seated at the near end to where they enter, I have a potential to be immediately enveloped if I do something to draw attention, such as drawing a weapon. BG's all around; bad to begin with, but now I might have to fire in all directions while under immediate physical attack. Once again, can I really avoid putting other passengers at high degree of risk?

Now, am I going to submit to a beating? Probably not. No telling where that would go...............
OK, you're shining light on the subject from different angles and considering different possibilities. I guess my lack of understanding is with those for whom the only angle under consideration is best how to surrender.

There's no telling where that would go for me in that situation, either, but surrendering my wallet along with my weapon would be way down on the priority list. And, yes, being passive can be the best option, also----depending on the situtation.






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Old April 23, 2011, 01:59 AM   #86
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i already have too much stuff in my pockets to carry a whole extra wallet but separating some bills from my wallet into a $$ clip for my convenience (sp?) and to have a "treat" for the BG's isnt a bad idea at all. maybe small frequently used bills with a larger one on the outside? if ya'll think about it for a sec, giving away $20 would cost less than a full clip of your best self defense ammo and the gas money to drive back to the place you bought it from!!
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Old April 23, 2011, 02:02 AM   #87
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is it legal for us to carry and use flashbang grenades?
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Old April 23, 2011, 08:02 AM   #88
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Charles would have loved it

Sounds like a Charles Bronson moment to me. For those of you too young to remember, I am referring to the Death Wish series of movies starring the aforementioned
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Old April 23, 2011, 08:04 AM   #89
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For those too young to remember the movies, the Bronson character also was constantly under police scrutiny, and in reality would have been incarcerated.
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Old April 23, 2011, 08:27 AM   #90
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Quote:
I rode MARTA almost everyday for over a decade, it isn't as dangerous as you think it is, just keep your head up, be alert and pay attention (I'd have felt completely safe with a Browning Hi Power or even my Airweight Bodyguard)

I actually miss riding MARTA, great place to peoplewatch
Marta is not too unsafe if you don't ride it at odd hours, like really late at night or really early. I ride it occasionally and have never had any run in's but I usually ride it during peak hours, never later at night
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Old April 23, 2011, 09:36 AM   #91
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REAL Subway Vigilantes...

If we're invoking Charles Bronson movies, how 'bout a little something about real subway vigilantes (before that term was given a negative spin)?

As I recall, the Guardian Angels were started by Curtis Sliwa, who was a McDonald's night mgr. and a martial arts enthusiast. He first organized some fellow workers to pick up all the trash around the restaurant, and in the process they were able to intervene in some attempted muggings.

Curtis worked in The Bronx and lived in Brooklyn (opposite ends of the city). One of the trains he rode between work and home was known as "the muggers' express".

Originally calling themselves "The Magnificent 13", Curtis & Co. rode that train, and really dished out some "instant Karma" to anybody who dared to try to rob or harass innocent passengers.

That was the genesis of the Guardian Angels Safety Patrol, formed in 1979 and still operating in cities around the U.S. and the world, focusing chiefly on public transit (although their presence is not what it once was, and I don't know if they have a chapter in Atlanta).

Besides deterring crime and protecting citizens, the group gave structure and direction to a lot of youngsters who otherwise might have joined criminal gangs. The group follows strict rules which includes never being armed. Unfortunately, a number of Guardian Angels have been killed while fighting crime.

Even more unfortunate, the positive values of the Guardian Angels can't compete today with the media-glamorized allure of the thug life.

I'm thinking about Curtis because he announced on Thursday that he has prostate cancer and is going under the knife today.
While we're all thinking about subway crime, let's try to keep this true subway vigilante, crimefighter and positive role model in our thoughts and prayers.

Thanks!
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Old April 23, 2011, 09:43 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnKSa
I would let this pass but I'm starting to get worried that people will begin to think that they can't draw until they absolutely have to fire or that if they draw they have to fire. Most self-defense encounters involving a defender with a firearm are resolved because the firearm's deterrent value ends the encounter without a shot being fired. We shouldn't DEPEND on that for safety nor should we display a firearm if we aren't willing and able to use it, but it would be sad for gun-owners to think that they aren't allowed to take advantage of such a valuable tool given its obviously impressive track record.
Thanks for clearing that up
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Old April 23, 2011, 01:53 PM   #93
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For those too young to remember the movies, the Bronson character also was constantly under police scrutiny, and in reality would have been incarcerated.
You said it, so it's true.
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Old April 23, 2011, 03:19 PM   #94
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8shot357, thanks for the sarcasm.

What was the body count in the Death Wish movies? (Note: it's over 100.)

How many times do you expect a citizen could expect to get away with claiming SD before prosecutors and juries said, "enough?"

Do you recommend a .475 Wildey Magnum as an SD gun?

Offer up your defense of Paul Kersey.
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Old April 23, 2011, 03:49 PM   #95
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I have to go with MLeake on this one.

For comparison, Lance Thomas shot 6 attackers, killing 5 of them in four very clearcut self-defense shootings resulting from armed robberies at his watch store. He was shot several times himself in the process so there was no question that his life was in jeopardy.

After the last shooting, according to Kirchner*, the authorities let him know that: "political pressures being what they were...he would be indicted after another shooting, whatever the circumstances; he apparently wasn't trying hard enough to avoid confrontation."

It's a HUGE mistake for a citizen to assume that he's going to be hailed as a hero after shooting a bad guy (or bad guys). There will certainly be some who will respond that way, but there will be many more who view any killing--even killing in self-defense--as "uncivilized" or otherwise undesirable. The same folks who advocate that women carry lemon juice around to throw in the face of a criminal who attempts to rape them. The current mentality of Great Britain.

Circumstances eventually forced Thomas to close his shop. Now he does business primarily over the internet.

* The Deadliest Men, The World's Deadliest Combatants throughout the Ages by Paul Kirchner
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Old April 23, 2011, 04:47 PM   #96
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If these guys are as close in proximity to me as I think they would be given the described situation and I made the decision to use deadly force I would create upward angles. Dealing with most immediate threat first I would guess the guy is at arms lenght or close to it. Angle gun upwards before firing kind of from the hip/quick post draw first shot. Engaging any targets further down the tram car you could kneel to try and keep projected bullet path away from other innocent passengers.

There was no mention of if this gang had guns themselves. If they only had knives/clubs/pipes etc punching holes in the first one or two guys may make the others stop what they are doing.
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Old April 23, 2011, 04:51 PM   #97
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Upward angles aren't a bad idea.

Only question I will ask is how is your mobility from a kneeling or deeply crouching position?

Because if the group does attack, you might need to be able to maneuver.

And if you do have to maneuver, can you still find upward or otherwise safe angles?

Sorry, that was a second question.
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Old April 23, 2011, 05:27 PM   #98
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Folks, what are you going to do when the gang bangers use a hostage as a shield against you and then press the attack? Think about it, 30 thugs on a small train car with NO WHERE TO RUN.

I am amazed at how people conjure up methods of attack to overtake 30 thugs with one SA pistol and one reload. All I can say is good luck. The only way to win that battle is to avoid it all together. Making the assumption that you will scare them away is not a winnning strategy. You might just get the opposite effect especially with a caged mob of 30 with no where to go but right through you. Once again, good luck.
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Old April 23, 2011, 06:56 PM   #99
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greginatl

Quote:
Sounds like a Charles Bronson moment to me. For those of you too young to remember, I am referring to the Death Wish series of movies starring the aforementioned
dont forget the dude from revenge of the nerds once he ended up on "ER" for years. he packed a pistol on the subway and stuck it in some thugs' face after being bullied on there more than once. This stuff does happen in some forms or others.

Quote:
All I can say is good luck. The only way to win that battle is to avoid it all together.
alaska, only problem is sometimes it cant be avoided. sometimes doing something is better than nothing.
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Old April 23, 2011, 08:42 PM   #100
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Sometimes, youngguns, but not this time. No one can be sure how they would react, since we were not there, but it sounds like a no win situation.
Another point to consider is that, for every one Audie Murphy, there are ten guys who got their CMH posthumously.
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