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Old April 21, 2011, 04:36 PM   #51
Alaska444
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Folks, take a look at the "mentors" of these young thugs:

http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/ramp...ison-riot.html

The riots continued for 30 minutes despite tear gas and live ammo with 16 prisoners shot. These thugs have serious recriminations if they don't fight, in fact, cowardice in the face of confrontation will likely get that person beat up or worse by their own gang.

Here, take a look at a real gang riot. It took three hours to clean up the streets. Feel good about your one man crusade on a crowed subway? Not me. A mob is a frightening force indeed.

http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/ramp...as-mayhem.html
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Old April 21, 2011, 04:55 PM   #52
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Threegun I am a combat vet and I can tell you from personal experience, it aint like the movies, as some of you seem to think. Frankly I am a little dismayed by how 'tough' some of you seem to think you are. Weapons don't make you tough, training, experience and a clear head are your best allies, not bravado.
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Old April 21, 2011, 05:13 PM   #53
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Here, take a look at a real gang riot. It took three hours to clean up the streets. Feel good about your one man crusade on a crowed subway? Not me. A mob is a frightening force indeed.
Riots and 25 youth gang members like apples and oranges......they aren't the same. I was once threatened by 10 or so unfriendly youths. As they tried to surround me I was forced to pull my firearm. Back then (don't laugh) I was toting an intratec category 9 pistol. Not enough rounds to give everybody a single hit. Thankfully the air left their sails just at the sight of the gun. Had they continued I am convinced that the brakes would have been put on after the first friend fell.

I'm not suggesting that a determined mob isn't frightening but again not many folks like rushing a machinegun nest. Only the most determined will even try or perhaps some that think they can get to you before you can shoot them.
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Old April 21, 2011, 05:24 PM   #54
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a machine gun nest is a fortified position, you will find nothing like that on a subway; a plastic seat maybe but not much more. I understand how difficult it is to admit that some situations are beyond our control, but there are times when we must accept that. That doesnt mean surrender; it just means do only that which will not make things worse for you and the others with you(everyone cept the perps).
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Old April 21, 2011, 05:41 PM   #55
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I carry a pistol (and other tools) for my protection and that of my family. If the situation has deteriorated to the point that I am in fear for my life or fearful of serious bodily injury, and my options are to quietly acquiesce to being maimed, crippled or killed, or to gather up an honor guard to accompany me to Valhalla, I know what my choice will be. It doesn't matter if it's a gang rampaging in a train or a robbery in a convenience store, I will not submit and go down quietly. I have given this careful consideration over a period of time and made my decision: I will not be herded to slaughter.

Whether this would have been an appropriate action on this train, I don't know; I wasn't there. Neither was anybody who is commenting in this thread. But I do know where my line in the sand is. No false bravado, just fact.
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Old April 21, 2011, 05:56 PM   #56
threegun
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Threegun I am a combat vet and I can tell you from personal experience, it aint like the movies, as some of you seem to think. Frankly I am a little dismayed by how 'tough' some of you seem to think you are. Weapons don't make you tough, training, experience and a clear head are your best allies, not bravado.
My god man why are you insisting that some of us are locked in movie fantasy? Who said anything about bravado? Who said weapons make them tough? You continue to make assumptions. We disagree here again. I submit that a 5 shot snub nose would be sufficient to survive this event (I am of course assuming that the carrier is properly trained). I base my opinion on my personal expierience in a similar event plus many other video's plus the human beings natural desire to self preservation. You opinion is based on combat and riots neither of which is relevant in this case.

You are fixated on the numbers, one vs 25. How can one man defeat 25? I don't pretend to be able to defeat such odds. I can however defeat the closest most immediate bad guys to me until my gun runs dry. I believe in this case even 5 shots would be enough.

I thank you for your service.
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Old April 21, 2011, 06:05 PM   #57
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a machine gun nest is a fortified position, you will find nothing like that on a subway;
It was an example I used to prove my point that advancing in the face of mortal danger is difficult. Nobody wants to rush the machinegun nest. As a combat vet you should understand this more than the rest of us. It takes an extremely brave and determined man to do so.

It is exactely the same in civilization. Just plain hard to advance on death.
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Old April 21, 2011, 06:28 PM   #58
mnero
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5 shots might be enough for you to survive the event, but I doubt it would deescalate the event. My point is that shooting it out with the perps is a bad idea as it is likely to result in alot of colateral damage and may well get you killed. Once the shooting starts it will be fight or flight for the perps just as it is for everyone else, as soon as they showed up. Many of the perps may well fight, these kids are used to violence and even using violence, not always lethal violence, but violence. It is hard to imagine how a single person or several uncoordinated armed citizens could do anything but make the situation worse then it was.
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Old April 21, 2011, 07:20 PM   #59
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Drawing a weapon as they entered would have been premature.
Waiting until they began beating me would have been too late. This seems like a no-win situation.
Unless you consider the the third option--- which would be drawing your weapon in between the first two. Drawing a weapon when a violent attack looks imminent sounds like a good tactic to me. Imminent would include other people being assaulted.

Don't know the specifics on that train, but I remember a fellow named Reginald Denny who surrendered like a meek little lamb and suffered brain damage to the extent that he "just doesn't have any animosity" toward those who crushed his skull and laughed about it while blood poured out of his head.

Denny wasn't armed, but even among folks who carry, there seems to be those looking for a way to justify surrendering. Then there are those looking for a way to fight back.

Don't know how things are layed out on the transportation system, but BASIC alertness and planning taught to those who carry would put you at one end or the other so you don't end up between two groups of thugs.


I'd rather envision a bunch of punks coming toward me down a narrow aisle thru gun fire slowed by having to step over the bodies of their friends fast piling up on the floor.

Been more than one mob of thugs back off after a couple of 'em hit the deck. They might even hurt each other fighting to be the first out the door when the train stopped.



NO, I don't know that it would happen that way, but that's a better scenario to envision than looking for a way to give up and surrender. Isn't it? It's called mindset.




Just my thoughts on the matter.

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Old April 21, 2011, 07:58 PM   #60
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You know what's really interesting to me about the pics of the exterior and interior of those trains?

They're *exactly* the same as BART - Bay Area Rapid Transit (San Francisco/Oakland/etc.). I mean right down to the seating positions, door width, the works. Cars probably come from the same place.

So I *have* been there. I backed down four lunatics who were kicking and stomping somebody in the head. Two had claw hammers. I had a visible knife and unknown to everybody else present (and the cops afterwards!), a four-shot .22Mag minirevolver. I came out of that physically and legally intact and got the downed party out with no more than a concussion.

I don't have to guess. I *know* for a fact I'll stand up to a wolfpack of thugs. With one big difference. Instead of this:



I'll have this:



...which, in another month or two, is going to have a tube-magazine-based feed system for 12+ round capacity and the ability to stick new 8rd feed tubes in as fast as most people can swap 1911 mags.



(For those that don't know, I'm in Tucson AZ these days...)
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Old April 21, 2011, 08:05 PM   #61
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Mnero, You may be right. We cannot know an outcome in advance. What I do know is that I will not take a beating from anyone especially a group. When my turn to be beaten comes up so does my firearm. If the bad guys comply and retreat it over. If not its on.

If we are playing odds I would bet that the mere sight of a firearm would end the attack.

A practice game I play once in a while would definitely benefit this scenario. Set up 4 to 6 targets in a semi circle. Open fire one shot each only as you fire move horizontally toward the first target. In theory this buys you a fraction or two seconds to complete the swing before the last couple guys can reach you. I developed this because of my encounter with the 10 plus teens.

Would be tough in a subway car but its the closest thing I've got to dealing with alot of targets at close range while trying to prevent getting over run.
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Old April 21, 2011, 08:42 PM   #62
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Couple of points here; first, merely bringing a gun into the picture may not be enough by itself to stop the act. But adding a formidable command presence will go miles over someone brandishing that does not sound like they mean business.

As far as the 2 adults stopping the action, someone stated it was never indicated whether or not they were armed. In this scenario, I think it proves that a determined action trumped the toads higher numbers. If they were armed, the 24 or so obviously didn't want to tangle with them, even though they outnumbered them 12 to 1. If they were not armed, it proves it even more.

I don't think any of the posters advocating action here are taking on a "Rambo" persona by doing so. Mind set, training, and command presence work on larger groups; it has for me, and that never involved rushing headlong into the fray.

And if the thinkable happens (I don't like the term unthinkable, as it implies one cannot keep their head and tactically act), looking at the interior pic on the train, you could pick a choke point to limit the toads ability to use numbers to their advantage, such as just a step this side of the 2 upright poles next to the seated guy on the left. Not a great funnel, I admit, but start filling it with thugs, and it becomes harder to press an attack.

Lastly, this is not a riot by hardened lifer's that will operate as a mob. This is a largely a pack of cowards, led by a couple of stronger willed cowards. I agree, if deadly force is called for and you drop the leaders, the rest of the pack will do whatever you tell them to do to stay alive. My .02.
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Old April 21, 2011, 08:56 PM   #63
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It seems a mistake to me to assume that these 'gangbangers' are cowards. My old man used to say to me 'everyone always says stand up to bullies cause they are cowards at heart, but I am telling you to beware of bullies and take them down first and fast cause they usually are dangerous' course he was assuming a one on one situation at a school.
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Old April 21, 2011, 09:19 PM   #64
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Bernard Goetz had the right solution, but he had five shots for four goblins.
No, he didn't. The Goetz case teaches us several salient lessons, but effective self-defense is not one of them.

Honestly, if I were caught in that situation, I don't think I'd be able to do much. As others have mentioned, one shot might spook the gang. It might.

So, what are we left with after that? A mob animal that's spooked and has nowhere to go. All I've done is a) made it more aggressive, and b) focused that on myself.

Frankly, in that situation, I'd simply play the part of the ineffectual urban yuppie and give them my wallet. There's nothing in there that can't be replaced, and I wouldn't be placing lives (both innocent and criminal) in danger.
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Old April 21, 2011, 11:06 PM   #65
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alaska

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I can't speak from my own experience fortunately, but these kids are faced with guns pointed at them all the time in these gangs. One of the points my CCW instructor who is also an LEO, (expert firearms witness, owner of the number one rated gun range in America at the last shot show, 20 years in military police, author of tactical firearms books, etc, you get the picture) stated that he has witnessed the reactions of many criminals with guns pointed at them and most often it doesn't phase them.

Criminals know in fact that most folks will not shoot even when pointing the gun, they just don't want to hurt anyone. His point was that if you pull your gun thinking that will scare most criminals, good luck. You have to be willing to shoot. The case I posted above in CDA had 8 thugs, two were shot, the other 6 pummeled the man being attacked. I wouldn't bet on these creeps freaking out because you have a little gun pointed at them. Most care little for their life or yours for that matter and could care less if they are shot or not. It is a way of life to show no fear in these gangs. 30 kids rioting on a train, bad situation plain and simple.
I agree or possibly that is the wrong terminology: in this situation one would need to shoot if drawing. that would always depend on the specific situation at hand and also would have a final decision made by the innocent pulling his firearm. taking control of the situation quickly would be very important & the less time for the whole event to play out the better. giving the mob time to think can be a fatal mistake. I hope I'm not the test case for this one, but I'm not surrendering unless I have no choice in the matter. I would draw(and shoot) in a heartbeat on MARTA if I had to.
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Old April 21, 2011, 11:24 PM   #66
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So, far still no arrest, but the news reported that they are apparently closing in on someone.

MARTA had all the PR Team out today explaining how safe the system was and that this was an isolated incident. There is a big vote coming up concerning increasing taxes so they can expand the system into other municipalities, so I am sure they want to make this go away fast. Guess how I’ll vote…
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Old April 22, 2011, 04:16 AM   #67
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125gr doing 1,600+ is no joke. Neither is the noise factor...I guarantee you, those punks won't have ever heard anything like that.
No different than having an ice pick jabbed in your ear.

Evil doesn't impress me. Could I impress them if the situation called for it? Imagine something like this could impress the whole planet.
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Old April 22, 2011, 05:57 AM   #68
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Frankly, in that situation, I'd simply play the part of the ineffectual urban yuppie and give them my wallet. There's nothing in there that can't be replaced, and I wouldn't be placing lives (both innocent and criminal) in danger.

Urban yuppie,

Did you miss the part about passengers being smashed in the face, beaten and robbed of their wallets while they lay injured on the floor?
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Old April 22, 2011, 06:09 AM   #69
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Nnobby45... did you miss the part where most of the passengers did not get beaten, or where the beating of the flight attendants stopped when two adult males who apparently did NOT produce weapons intervened?

There isn't a clear-cut answer to a situation like this. There are far too many variables.

For instance, let's say we had the best defensive case. That's the one where I'm at the far end of the car from where these teens enter, and can maximize the defensive funnel effect of the center aisle. Best odds to hold them at bay with a firearm.

But where are the other passengers? Can I safely or ethically open fire?

Then again, if I were seated at the near end to where they enter, I have a potential to be immediately enveloped if I do something to draw attention, such as drawing a weapon. BG's all around; bad to begin with, but now I might have to fire in all directions while under immediate physical attack. Once again, can I really avoid putting other passengers at high degree of risk?

Now, am I going to submit to a beating? Probably not. No telling where that would go...

Would I want to try to intervene if other passengers were under attack? Of course. (But as noted, the two people who successfully intervened do not seem to have used guns.)

My point is that trying to de-escalate or at least non-escalate would probably be the best initial strategy, due in large part to the presence of innocent parties in a confined space.

And, as Tom Servo has pointed out on more than one occasion, nothing in his wallet is irreplaceable.

So I'd give them Tom Servo's wallet, and hope they left relatively peaceably.
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Old April 22, 2011, 07:29 AM   #70
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This has absolutely nothing to do with this thread..but jim march..that is a sweet looking pistol man..lol..and im sure if u had to pull it out on the subway the thugs may not run off at first because they would be trying to figure out what the heck that thing is...and I know u ain't gona say..( neither would I )...but what in the world do u keep bloting out on top of that pic lol
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Old April 22, 2011, 08:30 AM   #71
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Flamethrower/grenade launcher. Not approved for CCW use.

Custer could have used it at the Little Big Horn. His carry on that day were a pair of ivory handled 3-inch barreled Webley 45s. He knew he was heading for CQ trouble.
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Old April 22, 2011, 11:40 AM   #72
Jim March
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chadstrickland: here's the video of it in operation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZAGpJr5RsU

It's the world's only self-unloading revolver working on gas pressure .

Like I said: next step, add clip-in spring-loaded feed tubes through the other side's recoil shield. 12+ round capacity. Oh yeah. "Creature from the SASS Lagoon" .
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Old April 22, 2011, 12:26 PM   #73
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"Fair enough, let's blow them all away like zombies. How far away do we draw and shoot? What actions will jolt us into shooting? I am a bit puzzled by the fact that people really believe just pointing a pistol is going to scare people who grow up with violence in their homes and streets. I know the first time someone pulled knife on me freaked me out to no end, this is a very common occurrence with these folks."

Me Too: You do not draw your weapon unless you intend to fire it after a short warning. If you don't intend to fire, leave it in the holster until you do, period. In fact, that can be said for most weapons.
The only exception I can think of is in an enforcement action, on a sweep. Then one would need to be prepared. Now really, how many here would be in that situation?
The subway situation is a LOSE; if you are in it you lose. A cool head reacting to the situation is called for, moment by moment. I do hope I never find myself in a situaion with more than 6 thugs with the potential to explode on me. G*D bless us all in even that circumstance.
Let's hope none of us ever experiences anything like that.
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Old April 22, 2011, 02:45 PM   #74
markj
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Quote:
I'll have this:
Jim, that gun will give you a few moments as they try to figure out *** is that? the mother of invention and all that


Worst case here is some idiot hijacking the hay ride wagon..... only to find all are armed as this is Iowa and we all have a permit to carry it seems
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Old April 22, 2011, 06:07 PM   #75
WANT A LCR 22LR
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" Frankly, in that situation, I'd simply play the part of the ineffectual urban yuppie and give them my wallet. There's nothing in there that can't be replaced, and I wouldn't be placing lives (both innocent and criminal) in danger. "


And now they know where you live making a second stop likely. ( Gee, he gave up his wallet so easily, might as well take stuff from his home since he won't fight back. )

If no one fights back while being robbed, what prevents the thieves from striking again. . ( and again ) ?
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