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Old April 20, 2011, 11:25 PM   #26
mnero
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In the 30's La started to have a problem with hispanic gangs, who where associated with 'zoot suits'. The Navy had a large base in La at the time and organized what it called a 'dungaree liberty' For those of you not familiar with the Navy, dungarees are the working uniform worn only on ship and on the base, but never in public. Well on this liberty they went around and beat anyone of hispanic appearence wearing one of these 'zoot suits'. It did stop the problem, for a short time and it was, at least, tacitly condoned by the city authorities. I can't say I agree with the indicriminant nature of the assaults, since clearly not every young, hispanic male, wearing a zoot zuit in the 30's in La was a gang member. I can say I understand why the military took this unconstitutional measure.
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Old April 20, 2011, 11:56 PM   #27
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From what I read in the article it doesn't seem like the physical violence in this particular case merited a response with lethal force. It's nice to see that two bystanders stepped in to help the one man that was being attacked.
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Old April 21, 2011, 12:20 AM   #28
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BFPL

Quote:
BarryLee: "Watched the news tonight and regrettably they haven’t caught anyone yet. Generally these guys end up posting something on Facebook or bragging around the neighborhood. They did mention on the news that they were all chanting B.F.P.L. which may be the name of their gang."
Yup, I just heard that these numbnuts are all over Facebook. BFPL means "Bank First, Play Later".

Two thoughts on engaging a numerically superior force:

1) Military science teaches that twenty-five disciplined, highly-motivated troops can defend a position better than a hundred troops of whom seventy-five are not disciplined nor motivated.
2) Motto of the Texas Rangers: "One riot, one Ranger".

Last edited by Ringolevio; April 21, 2011 at 10:20 AM.
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Old April 21, 2011, 07:49 AM   #29
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"one armed person against 30 thugs?"
Actually, I carry that many rounds most of the time. I seriously doubt that all of the worthless snots would have stood in line to get shot and there wasn't room for all of them to get in the game at once. Just my opinion but, after the first 2 or 3 went down, the rest would have been looking for any way out they could find. In that confined area, as long as you didn't let any of them get behind you, it would have been a turkey shoot or a standoff if they used the other riders as shields, in which case a couple of headshots would have made that less useful for them also.
I don't live in an urban area, don't use mass transit, and prefer to take care of my own problems but my Mother expected me to look after those less able to take care of themselves so I can't truthfully say how I would react. In the past I have put myself in hazardous positions to help others and likely will again so I guess it would depend on the immediate situation. If deadly weapons were not used, I'm not sure deadly force would be appropriate but I would not allow myself to be beaten, either. This is coming from a 60ish guy who's never pulled the trigger on a human outside of military service.
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Old April 21, 2011, 08:28 AM   #30
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Was once attacked by 5 and on another occasion by 7.

But 20...or more. Not to panic, never panic. Well basic principles apply, don't get flanked and stop the leader (or leaders) first. In a subway/train car that shouldn't be too hard to manage.

And weapons? well.... a couple of 45s, big slow moving bullets that hit hard, stay in the target, and limit collateral damage.

When you must fight, fight hard.
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Old April 21, 2011, 08:53 AM   #31
Tommy Vercetti
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Quote:
I'm not riding MARTA.
I rode MARTA almost everyday for over a decade, it isn't as dangerous as you think it is, just keep your head up, be alert and pay attention (I'd have felt completely safe with a Browning Hi Power or even my Airweight Bodyguard)

I actually miss riding MARTA, great place to peoplewatch
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Old April 21, 2011, 08:53 AM   #32
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The problem with making decisions is that there is uncertainty.

In this case, if I draw and engage, 18 rounds plus a 17 round extra mag FNX-9, the uncertainty is whether it is enough to stop the attack. Will the gang move through the gun fire, or will they retreat as a few fall.

On the other hand, if I do nothing, the uncertainty is whether I will be seriously harmed. They may have knives or they may decide to kick me in the head, if I go down. In addition, if the battle is prolonged, they may grab my gun. Added to the uncertainty is that in general the thugs do not have respect for the lives of others.

On balance, I think I am going to try and engage them. The CAR high position is excellent for gun retention and close quarter shooting. Sitting here at my keyboard, I don't think I am going to count on the mercy of the thugs.
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Old April 21, 2011, 09:05 AM   #33
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After reading the news article, I have to agree that this group of rabble would have mostly broken ranks when the real **** started to go down. I am doubtful that any were carrying anything since a mere 2 adults were able to intervene and create a standoff without being assaulted unto their death themselves. I'm of the mind that (having contacted several large groups on the job over the years for a variety of violations) that an authoratative presence could have carried the day; that and the additional presentation of a Sig P228 strong hand, and a Benchmade folder weak hand for any close quarters activity.
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Old April 21, 2011, 09:08 AM   #34
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I seriously doubt that all of the worthless snots would have stood in line to get shot and there wasn't room for all of them to get in the game at once. Just my opinion but, after the first 2 or 3 went down, the rest would have been looking for any way out they could find. In that confined area, as long as you didn't let any of them get behind you, it would have been a turkey shoot or a standoff if they used the other riders as shields, in which case a couple of headshots would have made that less useful for them also.
I would think a gang of young punks were probably riding on a high of weed or speed, or some other type of junk. I agree that if the apparent leader or one of the more aggressive ones were taken out, the rest would scatter like the cowards that they are. While it easy to Monday morning quarterback and discuss the legal ramifications of shooting an unarmed punk, a reasonable jury would certainly understand how one may fear for their life when confronted with such a large number of ameba's. And, I would think everyone else on that train would have to be in agreement that the shooting was completely justified as most thought they were going to be robbed, caused great bodily harm, or killed...especially if the ameba's were chanting a gang ID.
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Old April 21, 2011, 09:15 AM   #35
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Just are not a lot of places to hide on a Marta car until you get to the station.

Tough call. Benhard Goetz had the right solution, but he had five shots for four goblins. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Goetz

Unless you have way to top up, when the snubbie goes dry, you still have fourteen goblins left.



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Old April 21, 2011, 09:35 AM   #36
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i gotta say i dont know what the hell i would do. if i had been there i would have had at least 13 rounds of 230 grn +P hollowpoints loaded up and ready. i carry my gun over my right kidney so if asked for my wallet, my draw wouldnt be an alarming movement to a would be BG. that said there is nothing in the article about them brandishing any weapons other than a soda can. so what we do know is that a large # of punks with a soda can were strong arming people on the subway and when things got bad they were slowed down or stopped by a couple of unarmed adults. what we dont know is what and how many deadly weapons they had that they didnt display. sounds like the best thing that could happen did. dont get me wrong, i hate it that those 2 people got hurt but noone got shot and none of us good guys went to jail for an unjustified shooting. that siad, nobody is going to lay a hand (or coke) on me or my loved ones without at least looking down the barrel of my .45. i think an overzealous, armed citizen could have ended up causing more injury or even death of the innocent bystanders and him/herself
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Old April 21, 2011, 09:40 AM   #37
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Some of you guys need to stop watching so many rambo movies. 25 to one armed or not, good luck with that; oh and it won't be like in the movies. It is hard to shoot with a face full of some fools blood and meat.
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Old April 21, 2011, 10:43 AM   #38
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Why do we accept the media account?

Quote:
justjim75: "...so what we do know is that a large # of punks with a soda can were strong arming people on the subway and when things got bad they were slowed down or stopped by a couple of unarmed adults."
How do we know the folks who intervened were not armed? In Atlanta, there's a good chance there were armed citizens on that subway car. Perhaps they were prudent enough (and by the grace of God) that merely threatening to shoot was enough to turn back the mob.

We seem to be accepting the media account, when we know that the media have a history and an agenda of not mentioning all those times when a gun stops crime without even being fired.

If those who intervened were armed, they showed great restraint. But they were also committed to engage if necessary, and to go down fighting. So what if the odds are overwhelming? Let your attackers know you won't go down without a fight. Even in the wild, predators select the weakest prey, because they don't want to risk injury to themselves.

Last edited by Ringolevio; April 21, 2011 at 10:51 AM. Reason: Grammar
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Old April 21, 2011, 10:45 AM   #39
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Quote:
To suggest that the person facing this mob was in 'good shape' is totally incorrect.
The shortest book in the world is filled with the names of "young gang bangers" who climbed over the bodies of their dead buddies to overwhelm the source of fire.

Now I certainly have seen many many video's of folks running away at the mere sound of gunfire.

Quote:
Some of you guys need to stop watching so many rambo movies. 25 to one armed or not, good luck with that; oh and it won't be like in the movies. It is hard to shoot with a face full of some fools blood and meat.
Mnero, Again another thread with you making presumptions of us.

So you call us Rambo's for having a bit of understanding of what we are facing. Perhaps you should watch some "actual footage" of similar events so that you can make a better decision on whether to resist or comply.

I wouldn't expect our soldiers to retreat in the face of death just as I don't expect our cowardly gang members to attack in the face of death.

In most cases simply having a gun increases your odds of success. A 5 shot 38 special would be sufficient in most cases. I submit that the available evidence tends to support my position.
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Old April 21, 2011, 11:54 AM   #40
justjim75
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my point is that the attacks were stopped without a gunfight, which is good.
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Old April 21, 2011, 12:34 PM   #41
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A video of them rapping


http://cofcc.org/2011/04/massive-org...n-marta-train/
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Old April 21, 2011, 12:36 PM   #42
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I can't speak from my own experience fortunately, but these kids are faced with guns pointed at them all the time in these gangs. One of the points my CCW instructor who is also an LEO, (expert firearms witness, owner of the number one rated gun range in America at the last shot show, 20 years in military police, author of tactical firearms books, etc, you get the picture) stated that he has witnessed the reactions of many criminals with guns pointed at them and most often it doesn't phase them.

Criminals know in fact that most folks will not shoot even when pointing the gun, they just don't want to hurt anyone. His point was that if you pull your gun thinking that will scare most criminals, good luck. You have to be willing to shoot. The case I posted above in CDA had 8 thugs, two were shot, the other 6 pummeled the man being attacked. I wouldn't bet on these creeps freaking out because you have a little gun pointed at them. Most care little for their life or yours for that matter and could care less if they are shot or not. It is a way of life to show no fear in these gangs. 30 kids rioting on a train, bad situation plain and simple.
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Old April 21, 2011, 12:41 PM   #43
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I wouldn't expect our soldiers to retreat in the face of death just as I don't expect our cowardly gang members to attack in the face of death.
Agreed, these guys aren't a bunch of mindless bloodthirsty zombies who keep advancing until their heads are removed. I suspect that most of them would scatter at the sound of gunfire, especially if a comrade went down.
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Old April 21, 2011, 01:21 PM   #44
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As a general rule I believe if I have to go down I'd rather do so with my slide locked.
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Old April 21, 2011, 01:31 PM   #45
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I agree with the idea that would probably scatter if you shot one or two of them on the street, but just like everyone else on the train they have nowhere to run. I would worry about it becoming a fight or flight situation, with no way out there is a very real chance they will decide to come at you with full force and now insted of a beating they will be looking for revenge. That being said it might have been a good situation to pull out the 4oz of fox pepper spray and only use the ccw for if there are any very determined punks. would have ruined the day for every person on the train but im sure there would be gang members to arrest when the police got there. just my $0.02, im no expert.
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Old April 21, 2011, 02:03 PM   #46
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I agree to a extent that the gang bangers wouldn't feel afraid if a gun was simply pointed at them but if I was forced to draw my weapon then the most threating hard core one of them is going down first..I mean one shot in the head if I could get a clean one..and then..its a cluster. if they had guns I would probably get killed pretty quick if they had knives and melee weapons then im sure after there leader head popped open then they rest would disperse quickly..if they insisted then I would try to take the other leaders..if there was any..but with a mouse gun...I would still get killed
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Old April 21, 2011, 02:30 PM   #47
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I've seen what my ammo out of my gun can do to a bowling ball. Yes, I was sorta writing in humor mode but seriously, I'm NOT kidding about the "abstract art on the ceiling" part. 125gr doing 1,600+ is no joke. Neither is the noise factor...I guarantee you, those punks won't have ever heard anything like that.

I really believe that both factors would make a 357 sixgun a better choice than a high-cap 9. That one first shot is going to go beyond merely "get their attention". It's going to horrify 'em. Not to mention make most of the rest of the train want to puke .
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Old April 21, 2011, 03:15 PM   #48
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Fair enough, let's blow them all away like zombies. How far away do we draw and shoot? What actions will jolt us into shooting? I am a bit puzzled by the fact that people really believe just pointing a pistol is going to scare people who grow up with violence in their homes and streets. I know the first time someone pulled knife on me freaked me out to no end, this is a very common occurrence with these folks.

I have preached at a maximum security prison with murderers and rapists locked away for life without parole. One in particular described his state of mind before he went to jail that he didn't care if he lived or died, nor did he care if his victims lived or died. Have any of you folks actually spoken to these gang bangers and heard how they live and how they think? Being threatened and dealing with that threat before them is a routine occurrence in these gang bangers lives and is how that they make their reputation on the street.

I would not over estimate their reaction to the presence of a gun, nor would I underestimate the ability of a gang of thugs to overcome you. I have seen the scars of gun shots and knife wounds on these folks. I don't think a single white boy with a gun is going to put a whole lot of fear into these creeps myself from the hardened creeps that I have met and preached to personally. Showing fear is the last thing these creeps will do, it is just not the way that they live on the streets, nor in the prisons where they spend considerable time. That is just not their culture. My vote is you lose either way whether you do nothing or whether you draw and shoot. Even if you drive them away, get ready to deal with the DA that will lock you and put you in jail. Even if you win, you will lose.

For myself, I will never ride on MARTA or any subway system for that matter. Why expose yourself to that kind of threat in the first place. Your options are limited and poor no matter what the scenario in such a situation. Don't go there in the first place.
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Old April 21, 2011, 03:35 PM   #49
robmkivseries70
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I have seen the notion of going after the leader several times here. This is a good strategy. When you are out in public watch the groups of young people, even the benign groups. Almost all will have some sort of 'leader', usually referred to as the "Alpha male". Female gangs will have an "Alpha Female" as well. It's not as common, but it happens. Picking out the leader is a good skill to have. Be a 'people watcher'!
Best,
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Old April 21, 2011, 03:51 PM   #50
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And to answer the preacher post I for one have yet to meet a hardcore gang where everyone in there are blood thirsty killers...if u see a group of a 100 gang bangers..probably half of them are soldiers the other half cannon fodder..and of the 50 soldiers..probably 2 or 3 know what there doing...now I do live in alabama not that many gangs like there is in texas or california but still...most of them join the gang for protection and to make a lil money...there are only a few that do the real work..and normally unless there very good u can spot them by the way the others treat them....its not hard
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