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Old May 2, 2011, 07:23 AM   #1
SwampYankee
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Bin Laden thread.

Just wondering why this discussion hasn't been locked yet? Still can't figure out what this has to do with firearms...
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Old May 2, 2011, 08:15 AM   #2
Al Norris
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[puts on his mod hat]

SwampYankee, there are times when things that are of national import, that have nothing to do with guns, get discussed here at TFL.

Yes. We have "bent" the rules today, as THIS is one of those times.

[takes off mod hat]

It has been a long time coming.
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Old May 2, 2011, 02:11 PM   #3
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Quote:
[puts on his mod hat]

SwampYankee, there are times when things that are of national import, that have nothing to do with guns, get discussed here at TFL.

Yes. We have "bent" the rules today, as THIS is one of those times.

[takes off mod hat]
I'll just point out that this was not the bombing of Pearl Harbor or the destruction of the Twin Towers, both of which were of national import. And it is not the end of World War II. The war is still on and won't ever "end".

Yeah, Bin Laden is dead. But he's been in isolation for the past 10 years and a lot of people figured he was dead anyway. This changes nothing. It does not make us safer, it probably doesn't even make us less safe. And there isn't even a body because we were too afraid to hold onto it.

Someone asked a question about the firearms at the royal wedding. Got closed when someone mentioned the airplanes in the flyover. But the thread was about firearms and got barely anywhere before being shut down.

TFL just seems a little strange lately...
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Old May 2, 2011, 02:45 PM   #4
Mike Irwin
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Hey Swampyankee,

You've discovered the deepest, darkest secret that we as moderators have...

WE'RE HUMAN.

We get into things like this just as much as anyone else.

Ultimately, if you're not satisfied with how staff is moderating here, that's unfortunate. As I said, we're human.

But for not a lot of money, you, too, could get to be oh so eminently human on your own board. VBulletin software is relative cheap, and the internet always needs another chat forum.
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Old May 2, 2011, 03:33 PM   #5
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Quote:
But for not a lot of money, you, too, could get to be oh so eminently human on your own board. VBulletin software is relative cheap, and the internet always needs another chat forum.
The "if you can do it better, go ahead and do it" argument just doesn't wash. And don't worry, I never thought you were anything but human.

The mods WANT to talk about this one so it goes under the radar. When the mods don't want to talk about an off-topic discussion, it gets squashed. Or if a topic strays a tad, it may get squashed quick, before it makes it back onto topic. Some mods are more tolerant than others and will post a warning but there seems to be a lot of closed threads lately.

But I'm not moaning because the mods have stepped up their activity and have closed a lot of things that could have been moved or left open. It is a private board, I understand. You have notified people this was going to happen. Those are your rules. Im not arguing the rules or the standard policy.

My concern is that those rules become very flexible for what appears to be very little good reason, if the mods want to chat.

As far as I can tell, an emasculated and isolated terrorist leader was killed by American soldiers in a foreign country in the dead of night. The consensus (of experts not on TFL) seems to be that this will do very little to stop terrorism.

So why does the discussion continue?
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Old May 2, 2011, 03:37 PM   #6
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Quote:
Someone asked a question about the firearms at the royal wedding. Got closed when someone mentioned the airplanes in the flyover. But the thread was about firearms and got barely anywhere before being shut down.
It was shut down when it went off topic.
Quote:
The mods WANT to talk about this one so it goes under the radar. When the mods don't want to talk about an off-topic discussion, it gets squashed. Or if a topic strays a tad, it may get squashed quick, before it makes it back onto topic. Some mods are more tolerant than others and will post a warning but there seems to be a lot of closed threads lately.
First of all, it's hardly "going under the radar". No one's trying to hide anything.

Second, the nature of rules is that they can't cover every situation and therefore exceptions are sometimes appropriate. When that happens a judgement call is required and the nature of judgement calls is that not everyone agrees with them.

Finally, if you have a question or concern about how the forum is being run, the appropriate place to voice it is in the Suggestions, Questions and Support forum or via PM to a staff member. Inserting comments into the thread in question in the General Discussion subforum was not an appropriate approach.

That is why I have moved it here.
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Old May 2, 2011, 03:50 PM   #7
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Swamp, if you don't like the discussion you can ignore the thread. Nobody is forcing you to keep reading and posting in it. Man, this is the internet. Tons of things to discuss. This is the first time I've seen the mods make an exception and I welcome the human judgement exercised.!
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Old May 2, 2011, 04:28 PM   #8
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"The "if you can do it better, go ahead and do it" argument just doesn't wash."

Yeah, it does wash, because you're obviously not copacetic with how things are being run.

If you don't like how things are being run, you have a couple of options.

1. Ignore the thread that you don't like.

2. Participate in it anyway, knowing that while you're not happy, staff is.

3. Do your own thing, on your own time and your own dime.

No one is forcing you to choose any of those options.
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Old May 2, 2011, 05:05 PM   #9
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Mike, you forgot the 4th option:

4. To let you know that I am surprised at the fact that the thread was allowed to stand.

This is what I have done. You can take if for what it's worth: an unsolicited opinion commenting on the fact that I'm perturbed by what appears to be a double-standard when it comes to thread content- although that may not even really be the best term for it.

I ignore plenty of threads I have no interest in. But when I saw the title "Bin Laden dead" I thought, to myself, "I wonder how long it will take them to close that?". The topic is so far off the repeatedly stated goals of TFL, I just cannot believe it got past 3 posts. I would agree that some things are so colossally ground breaking, they warrant discussion even outside the purview of TFL's mission. But a dead terrorist?

It seems like a little hypocrisy. Not that there is anything wrong with that, it's a private board after all and hypocrisy is a constitutionally guaranteed right.

Am I happy with TFL? Sure. I ask a question, I usually get some good answers. I make a comment, I usually get worth while responses. But I never would have started a thread on Bin Laden because I thought I knew what TFL was all about, I guess I was mistaken.
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Old May 2, 2011, 05:17 PM   #10
Glenn E. Meyer
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I'm sorry. The mission of TFL is a social contract and not the laws of the physical universe. And Osama was not just a terrorist but causal to a major disruption of our country. In San Antonio, one sees many Vets without limbs due to our military medical facilities. We have servicemen shooting with us all the time. They are close to our hearts and a celebratory response arose in many. Now some in the thread are annoyed and disagree with killing him. They can express that and also read what folks think of that view.

When it was clear that our constituents would want to comment on such and if we just closed the thread, we would probably have numerous repeated posts of the news - it was decided to have one thread to express views - altering the social contract for a major event. But it is contained. NO one has to read it.

If that is hypocritical in someone's eye - that's just unfortunate. This unique incident is quite different from the usual off-topic post.

If Rich decides to add a cooking forum - so we can exchange recipes - that's not going to change the laws of the physical universe either.
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Old May 2, 2011, 05:31 PM   #11
Mike Irwin
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"To let you know that I am surprised at the fact that the thread was allowed to stand."

You did that with your first message. An explanation was proffered. That apparently wasn't good enough, so you dropped a second.

You still apparently aren't accepting what Al, I, and the rest of the mods have told you, so I'll lay it out very bluntly.

We on the mod staff have made a collective decision to let the thread in question go forward for the reasons already stated.

If that's not good enough for you, that's too damned bad.

You're now to the three choices that I gave you. Your fourth is no longer an option because you've used it. It's also pretty clear that no matter what any of the mods tell you that's not going to be good enough (to you).

But I beg to differ, it IS going to be good enough because you're now down to one option.

Accept the fact that things are running a bit differently than what you personally would like to see, get over it, and move on.

There doesn't need to be any more discussion on this subject. You've gotten every explanation you are either entitled to expect or are due.
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Old May 2, 2011, 06:51 PM   #12
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I guess I'll stop poking that bee hive now.
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Old May 2, 2011, 11:02 PM   #13
Hawg
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A wise decision.
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Old May 3, 2011, 12:23 AM   #14
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rgr that...
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Old May 3, 2011, 12:53 AM   #15
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Quote:
Yeah, Bin Laden is dead. But he's been in isolation for the past 10 years and a lot of people figured he was dead anyway. This changes nothing. It does not make us safer, it probably doesn't even make us less safe. And there isn't even a body because we were too afraid to hold onto it.
Bingo.

Quote:
Colonel Summers told a North Vietnamese colonel after the war, "You know, you never defeated us on the battlefield." to which his communist counterpart replied, "that may be so, but it is also irrelevant."
Likewise here, we may have killed Bin Laden, but in the big picture it is totally irrelevant. Like any good leader he worked to make himself unnecessary. He has been irrelevant for years as he had already accomplished what he had set out to do. Unite the middle east against western intervention, lure the US deep into the middle east, drain it financially and militarily through a long protracted conflict, and stress the relation between its allies. Ultimately forcing the US to completely withdraw from the region via bankruptcy. Only the last goal has not been accomplished, but that is only a matter of time.

While it is not good for the other side that he is gone they will continue to do what they have been doing until we are defeated just like the Soviets were. Then they will have what they wanted in the first place, and elaborated on many times, a Middle East free of foreigners meddling in their internal affairs.
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Old May 3, 2011, 01:01 AM   #16
Mal H
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This thread is not a continuation to the now-locked discussion thread. The question asked has been answered, perhaps not to the total satisfaction of everyone, but answered nonetheless.

Not much point in further discussion, so ... closed.
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