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Old April 18, 2011, 10:08 PM   #1
salvadore
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'62 and older

Just a heads up,I purchased a Walther P-1 from Royal Tiger earlier in the year advertised as excellent. Turned out to be in excellent condition. I ordered today an FN Browning Hi Power from the same company also advertised as excellent condition. Turns out they are out of Israel and will be shipping after pass over. I looked at guns america for israel hi powers and they were definately not excellent, nor even very good as advertised by the sellers. I was told the pre 62s are C&R eligable and decided to take a chance...Just so ya know.
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Old April 20, 2011, 03:44 PM   #2
Cheapshooter
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Just looked at their website. Saw no mention of the High Powers. The only C&R pistols they listed was the P1 and P64. Both priced more than I paid for mine just a month or so ago. I haven't heard anywhere else that the High Powers are C&R qualified. '62 dated would be 50 years old, but I didn't know that made a gun automatically C&R. Thought the BATF still had to list them. Did their add say they were C&R?
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Old April 20, 2011, 04:15 PM   #3
magnumPi
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that's where the "relic" part of C&R comes in. Otherwise, if it's newer than 50, it has to be on the list as a "curio"
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Old April 20, 2011, 04:32 PM   #4
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Quote:
that's where the "relic" part of C&R comes in. Otherwise, if it's newer than 50, it has to be on the list as a "curio"
That's not really the whole story. In a nutshell, here's what qualifies a gun for C&R status:
  1. Listed in the ATF book or added to the list on an ad-hoc basis by an ATF letter (effectively the same thing); OR
  2. At least 50 years old; OR
  3. Certified by certain experts as being of particular historical interest; OR
  4. Specifically associated with a notable person and/or event.
AFAIK category #4 is generally reserved for individual firearms, e.g. an otherwise run-of-the-mill gun that wouldn't be particularly special except that a former U.S. President owned it, and you have a signed letter proving it. A more grim example would be the Colt Cobra that Jack Ruby used to shoot Lee Oswald.
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Old April 20, 2011, 07:16 PM   #5
gyvel
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...'62 dated would be 50 years old,...
In order to be a "Curio and Relic" by BATF definition, the gun has to have been made 50 years prior to the current date. That means, in order to be a C&R, the gun has to have been made prior to "today's" date in 1961, not 62.

If Ruby's Colt had been made prior to "today's" date in 1961, it would qualify as a C&R two ways: It would have significant historical association, thus eligible to be added to BATF's list AND it would be over 50 years old, which doesn't require being added to the list.
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Old April 20, 2011, 07:25 PM   #6
Cheapshooter
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Copied from the BATF website:
Quote:
Q: What is a firearm curio or relic?
Firearm curios or relics include firearms which have special value to collectors because they possess some qualities not ordinarily associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

1. Have been manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof; or

2. Be certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; or

3. Derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or from the fact of their association with some historical figure, period, or event.
I don't think the last part is reserved for individual arms formally owned by historic people. Is it possible that this is the clause used to qualify guns of former Eastern Bloc Countries like the CZ 82, P64, Yugo 59/66 SKS . or even the Walther P1. The fall of the Iron Curtain being the historical event.
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Old April 21, 2011, 07:25 AM   #7
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Egad, that means some of my rifles are C&R eligible that were made in the 50's. Oh dear...................I am C&R eligible!
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Old April 21, 2011, 12:36 PM   #8
salvadore
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I checked the website and it didn't mention them either. My latest shotgun news was where I got the information. These folks have been real good to me, but if you have some worry about it, you can still get 4+ Mosins for the money.

Last edited by salvadore; April 21, 2011 at 12:41 PM. Reason: forgot
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Old April 21, 2011, 01:34 PM   #9
James K
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Nope, cheapshooter, just being "associated with" a Communist-bloc country does not make a gun a C&R. Those imported guns are either 50 years old (most are) or are not C&R.

Section 4 means just what folks think it means. The "event" is carefully not defined - BATFE would make an ad hoc decision on what qualifies.

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Old April 21, 2011, 03:43 PM   #10
Cheapshooter
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Nope, cheapshooter, just being "associated with" a Communist-bloc country does not make a gun a C&R. Those imported guns are either 50 years old (most are) or are not C&R.

Section 4 means just what folks think it means. The "event" is carefully not defined - BATFE would make an ad hoc decision on what qualifies.
With the narrow parameters as I quoted from the BATF website then explain the reason these less than 50 year old firearms are C&R. These are examples from my collection all purchased from suppliers with my C&R license.
CZ 82 '86
Walther P1 5/79
Polish P64 1971
East German Makarov 1963
And two Yugo 59/66 SKS rifles. Undated, but the 59/66 were not manufactured until 1966.

Quote:
1. Have been manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof; or
NO.

Quote:
2. Be certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; or
Never seen any of them as a museum piece.

Quote:
3. Derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or from the fact of their association with some historical figure, period, or event.
That's the only one left.

Not to argue, just wondering how they are C&R, and hoping many more qualify soon.
Bob
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Old April 21, 2011, 05:00 PM   #11
EOD Guy
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Cheapshooter,

Your CZ82 is C&R via the second criteria. It was certified by the curator of the West Point Museum and that was accepted by the BATF.
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Old April 21, 2011, 08:51 PM   #12
Cheapshooter
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Quote:
your cz82 is c&r via the second criteria. It was certified by the curator of the west point museum and that was accepted by the batf.
Is it the same with the others? Seems like a lot of guns with no particular interest to museums. Not complaining, keep 'em comming
I WANT TO BE A CURATOR Sigs, Brownings, H&Ks, S&W, Ruger... They would all be in!!!
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Last edited by Cheapshooter; April 22, 2011 at 12:40 AM.
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Old April 22, 2011, 07:54 AM   #13
gyvel
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One of the routes that one may take to attain C&R status is to petition BATF. You send them a letter stating your reason(s) why you think a particular gun should be a C&R, and, if they agree, it goes on the list. (Assuming said firearm is less than 50 years old, that is. Over 50 years old, it doesn't matter; It's automatic.)

I managed to get a few on the list back in the 70s. Of course, those guns are all over 50 years old now anyway.


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Has anyone else noticed that spelling check's alternative to BATF is "BARF?"
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