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Old April 22, 2011, 05:35 AM   #26
TheNatureBoy
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Glad the kid is ok. As far as the hunter is concerned.....
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Old April 22, 2011, 07:28 AM   #27
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dumbasses still blast brush trying to shoot game they cannot visually identify. Negligence while hunting is criminal, and in this case, a near charge of involuntary manslaughter.
Good post. A so called "hunter" who does not identify his target before shooting should not be allowed to own a gun.
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Old April 22, 2011, 08:51 AM   #28
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Again here in Louisiana we are a contributary state what that means is you may win a suit but the judge can still find you partially at fault. In this case the shooter could be found at fault but the shootee wasn't wearing orange.

A judge could say the shooter was 70% at fault and only liable for that amount and the shootee picks up the other 30%. Or 80/20 100/00 and so on.
Sure, the hunter may not be found 100% at fault, but the hunter had 100% control to NOT pull the trigger. Also, very few if any states require everyone to where hunter orange. There are numerous accounts from IHEA where hunters shoot joggers, hikers, campers, people in their own fricking back yards. Technically, the child was not hunting and not required to wear hunter orange by any sort of Wisconsin law.

With that said, Wisconsin law does NOT require hunter orange be worn for turkey season. The boy and his father were 100% inside of the law in regard to their clothing. They aren't to be blamed for not wearing hunter orange when the law does not require it (in part because it makes turkey hunting so difficult). So this is absolutely on the head of the shooter, not the boy or his father.

Apparently, the father was hit but uninjured as well.
http://www.myfoxdc.com/dpp/news/wisc...y-ncxdc-042011
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Old April 23, 2011, 12:05 AM   #29
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Breaking safety rules

It is a tenet of all shooting and hunting to not pull the trigger until one is absolutely sure of the target. That blur in the brush or dark spot fifty yards away is not a turkey or a deer or a bear until you can see it clearly.

Live Well BE SAFE
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Old April 23, 2011, 12:49 AM   #30
phil mcwilliam
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My initial reaction to a story like this is "stupid undisciplined hunter that should be locked up for his actions".
I did however recently read an acticle in a hunting magazine where a contributing writer was recounting a story of a hunt in his youth in New Zealand red deer hunting. The writer was in a remote location, glassing a valley where he spotted a doe under a tree, partially obstructed with light folliage. As his freezer was full of venison, he was not after a doe on this trip, but was looking for a trophy stag,& continued to glass the rest of the valley. Some minutes later he returned his view to the doe, and to his amazement it split in two. What he had seen through his binos were actually two guys sitting under a tree in brown coats, glassing in the opposite direction. One of the guys had his elbow crooked up as you do when glassing, & this had looked like the head of "the doe". It was only when these two guys stood up & moved off that he realised he was not looking at a doe.
The writer said it was a lesson that he would never forget in target identification, but he also said he could see how easily a trajedy could have occurred, especially hunting in scrub.
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Old April 23, 2011, 08:37 AM   #31
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I am not going to condemn the hunter who hit the kid at this point. I need to know a lot more. Accidents really do happen.

Back in my teens I used to archery hunt for deer and frequently hunted from a ground blind. Squirrel season ran concurrently with archery. I recall a couple times when squirrel hunters who often "still hunt" walked to within 10 feet of me and never saw me with the grin on my face. But what if a squirrel took off running near me and the hunter shot.... he didn't know I was there. Was he wrong or was I wrong? Both, I think.

During spring turkey season, you can normally only shoot turkey's with beards. By all reports, he did not identify his target and he certainly didn't know for a fact that it was a gobbler.
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Old April 23, 2011, 08:45 AM   #32
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"I am not going to condemn the hunter who hit the kid at this point. I need to know a lot more. Accidents really do happen."

We're not talking a case of shooting at a legit target and extra pellets spraying an unknown hunter in the area; we are talking about someone that violated a basic tenet of hunting. Do not shoot until you are absolutely sure of your target. The hunter neglected to do so.
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Old April 23, 2011, 11:38 AM   #33
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stopped hunting

I quit deer hunting in 1980 because of another hunter. I was hunting on state land in November with about 2 ft of snow. I was decked out in blaze orange. I was sitting on the edge of a clearing watching a buck run. The sun was up. Some Knob walks into the clearing, I coughed and raised my hand. Knob sat down on a log or stump. I was getting ready to leave, I remember thinking this guy really fouled the morning, I'll go back to the truck get a cup of coffee. Then Knob Stand up and shoots at me, the bullet landed about a foot from me in the snow. The next thing I know I am looking through the eye piece of my scope the cross hair was on Knobs chest, safety was off and glove was off, finger on the trigger. I lower my gun and eject all 5 30-06 bullets into the snow and walked out the woodsput, my rifle in it's case and drove home. I have not been in to woods during hunting season since. What scared me was not being shoot at, cause I have been when I was in Viet Nam, but looking down that scope and my finger on the trigger. I tell people I don't hunt any more; to many civilians in the woods with guns unsupervised.

Watch for civilians and Knobs in the woods.
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Old April 23, 2011, 01:47 PM   #34
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I am not going to condemn the hunter who hit the kid at this point..... During the Spring turkey season, you can normally only shoot turkeys with beards. By all reports he did not identify his target and he certainly did not know for a fact it was a gobbler.
I think if you'll re-read your own post you'll find there's very sufficient evidence to condemn the hunter.
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Old April 23, 2011, 02:41 PM   #35
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I might condemn the hunter as a hunter, but not from a legal standpoint (attempted murder, etc.). It is a fine point actually.
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Old April 25, 2011, 01:02 PM   #36
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I am not going to condemn the hunter who hit the kid at this point. I need to know a lot more. Accidents really do happen.

Back in my teens I used to archery hunt for deer and frequently hunted from a ground blind. Squirrel season ran concurrently with archery. I recall a couple times when squirrel hunters who often "still hunt" walked to within 10 feet of me and never saw me with the grin on my face. But what if a squirrel took off running near me and the hunter shot.... he didn't know I was there. Was he wrong or was I wrong? Both, I think.

I'm completely with you on this. Unless someone posseses infra-red vision like the Predator in the sci-fi movies, then you honestly can't expect them to always 100% of the time not fire upon someone who is camoflagued, especially if that person is up in a tree and / or doesn't let you know they are there, and they are firing at a legitimate target that they have identified, such as a squirrel or a bird, and it's not an open field.

Think about it:

1. The hunter is shooting at an upward angle where he could not reasonably expect any human to be,

2. He/she has positively identified his target, and

3. He/she sees nothing but tree tops and sky behind it.

If we are to expect the hunter to positively ensure that there is no one hidden in a tree stand behind the target then we should ban all hunting in forested areas, or require that the hunter check every tree in the area first, calling out "HELLLOOO??? ANYONE UP THERE???". Anyone who has spent 5 minutes hunting in forested areas will know that such a suggestion is obviously just ridiculous, and way beyond any reasonable practices.

A much more reasonable expectation is that the hunter in the treestand should be required to display some blaze orange, and also alert other hunters when they hear them approaching. Most bird hunters with dogs make A LOT of noise, have bells or electronic beepers, wear blaze orange, etc, and can be seen from VERY far away by anyone up in a tree in most cases. Even other small game hunters such as squirrel or rabbit hunters usually wear orange and can be seen from pretty far away if you are up in a tree.

I've hunted in thickly wooded public land many times, and the understanding is that you always warn others as soon as you realize there is someone else there; it's just basic common sense.

So many things can go wrong in this world just by themselves even when everyone is careful, so why anyone would help stack the deck in favor of an accident occuring when it could have easily been prevented is beyond me.

And I state again, accidents are always investigated, and if the conservation department and police find the shooter was not at fault, then that's proof enough for me that accidents DO indeed happen, and you can't always blame the shooter 100%.
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Old April 25, 2011, 01:11 PM   #37
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It's possible to assign some blame to both the shooter and the shot. (The father, not the 5 year old.)

For a parallel, if I decide to SCUBA dive from a boat, I'm supposed to display a flag, to warn other boaters that I might surface at any time, somewhere near the boat.

If I don't, and a boat driver hits me, should he have seen me? Probably. If I'm near my own boat, should he be operating at a safe speed, since he also must be near my boat? Yes.

But did I follow a normal step to warn him of my presence? No.

Seems to me this case is similar, but with hunters and guns.
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Old April 25, 2011, 01:17 PM   #38
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There can be nothing but condemnation for a hunter shooting a child. No, it's not murder but it is manslaughter.
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Old April 25, 2011, 01:40 PM   #39
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mes227, in this case, you are wrong - but that's a good thing. Kid was hit by bird shot by a turkey hunter at 40-50yds, and was expected to fully recover. Kid's father was also hit by pellets from that round, but they bounced off his clothing.

So it's neither murder nor manslaughter. Nobody died. Hopefully, the kid had no serious injuries.
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Old April 25, 2011, 02:06 PM   #40
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Definately not an "accident", accidents are unavoidale. Pure stupidity
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Old April 25, 2011, 03:57 PM   #41
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There can be nothing but condemnation for a hunter shooting a child. No, it's not murder but it is manslaughter.
It's absolute black and white thinking like this that gets innocent people sent to prison. You can't possibly fairly judge someone without analyzing and investigating all the facts, and then coming to a conclusion based up them. To simply state that any hunter who shoots a child is always 100% wrong and guilty is a miscarriage of justice.

Someone else gave the example of the anti-hunter iirc who was dressed in a deer costume and running around in the woods in order to be fired upon and then report it to the police. We all know kids do dumb things that we can't begin to understand why in the world they would do such things; would you blame the hunter if he shot one dressed in a deer costume because the kid thought it would be "funny" to do so? And no, this example is not that far fetched at all...


Quote:
It's possible to assign some blame to both the shooter and the shot. (The father, not the 5 year old.)

For a parallel, if I decide to SCUBA dive from a boat, I'm supposed to display a flag, to warn other boaters that I might surface at any time, somewhere near the boat.

If I don't, and a boat driver hits me, should he have seen me? Probably. If I'm near my own boat, should he be operating at a safe speed, since he also must be near my boat? Yes.

But did I follow a normal step to warn him of my presence? No.

Seems to me this case is similar, but with hunters and guns.
EXACTLY; there should be better rules to let others know that there is another person present, especially when it is easily possible to do so; it's simply common sense. Of course, you can't always warn everyone around you, since the woods only have limited visibility, but if someone is camoflagued, and knows that a hunter is approaching, and can easily warn them of their presence, and does not, well then I would not blame the hunter immediately without knowing more of the facts.
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Old April 25, 2011, 04:42 PM   #42
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Did the hunter mistake the boy for a turkey or see a turkey miss (not seeing the boy in the background) and hit him accidentally. If the first is true I always thought that when you are hunting you wait for the right shot and aim precisely. In doing that I think you should be able to tell the difference. Maybe the hunter just decided to shoot at anything that moves which is also very stupid.
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Old April 25, 2011, 04:45 PM   #43
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No, it's not murder but it is manslaughter.
It's neither. The kid survived.
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Also in my state there is such thing as a Class III BB gun :barf:
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Old April 25, 2011, 05:17 PM   #44
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A lot of hunters do shoot at anything that moves.

We don't take our horses out on trails in the WMA during season for a reason.

Same reason that farmers in the area where I grew up sometimes dyed their cows with orange X's on their sides.

Same reason my parents had to help get a neighbor's brindle mastiff to the vet for treatment of a gunshot wound.

Same reason a buddy of mine, who has been an avid hunter all his life, switched to bows from rifles when hunting public land.

Same reason that resulted in a woman's death when I was stationed in Maine; she was hiking, during deer season, in a suede jacket and white mittens, so she contributed to her own demise, but still...

That reason being that a lot of hunters don't properly verify their targets, let alone their backstops.

All of this is why I really recommend that people use blaze orange; RealTree has orange camo pattern. Deer and many other critters are color-blind, so it still works. If there's any doubt that an approaching party sees you, remove the doubt and let them know. If that means breaking silence, so be it. If that means losing a really nice buck or elk, to ensure you don't take a round, so be it.
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Old April 25, 2011, 05:26 PM   #45
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Same reason that resulted in a woman's death when I was stationed in Maine; she was hiking, during deer season, in a suede jacket and white mittens, so she contributed to her own demise, but still...
I remember that story...I thought she was actually shot in her own backyard, no?


There was a hunter in NY a couple of years ago who wounded a deer, tracked it for a ways, saw it standing, and finished it off with a second round. The terrible part, though, is that there was a trailer home less than 500 feet away (the minimum distance for firing from a structure unless you have permission), and the bullet also went through the trailer and killed a 16 month little old girl in the process.

He was charged with manslaughter, but I believe it was only because he was less than 500 feet away. Otherwise I don't think he would have been charged.
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Old April 25, 2011, 05:44 PM   #46
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I had thought she was on a trail, near her yard, but not in it. You could be right.

I spent a good part of my childhood in Maine, before we moved south. There was quite a bit of hunting in the Augusta suburbs, and a lot of trails in the woods that ran very close to people's backyards.

When I got stationed there as an adult, I found that not all that much had changed. Well, not all that much had changed, north of Freeport....
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Old April 25, 2011, 05:55 PM   #47
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There can be nothing but condemnation for a hunter shooting a child. No, it's not murder but it is manslaughter.
If no one dies it can't be manslaughter.

Lots of folks say hang the hunter but for what? He didn't intend to shoot a person. Though through his own stupidity perhaps, he did shoot someone.

But don't think even for a second you can lay all the blame on him. Hunting involves risk. Its just assumed thats why most place have safety courses and strict regulations in place. You cannot walk through a known public hunting area camoflaged to hunt your own self, and even though you are doing nothing wrong not know that there is still a risk involved.

IMO If a person can't accept that risk they don't have to take a single step out into the field.

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Old April 25, 2011, 06:11 PM   #48
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Uh...he shot at an unknown target. Guilty of the careless stupidity. Folks, a moment of clarity for the defenders here; we are not talking about a hunter shooting at a known target, or peppering some camoflauged guy in a tree who "should have ID'd himself". We are talking about a hunter who negligently shot at a something-or-another he could not identify. Period. That is a hunter safety course epic fail.
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Old April 25, 2011, 06:21 PM   #49
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gearhounds, I agree it was an epic fail on the part of the hunter.

But I think the father was an idiot, taking his kid out on public land without orange gear, and using a gobble to boot.

Assigning ALL blame to the hunter lets the father off the hook too easily.
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Old April 25, 2011, 06:23 PM   #50
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No doubt; these days it's crazy to let your kids out of your sight in the supermarket, much less the woods while hunting. I agree, epic fail X 2.
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