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Old February 11, 2000, 05:58 AM   #26
pluspinc
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plusp,
""Genetics will be our deciding factor in a real life and death encounter, much more so
than training, even if the "skill" is to flee.""
......are we talking about controlling panic? What about people that jump out of airplanes?---now that would panic me, but dont they get trained in such a way as to
enforce that they can safely do this? Is this close to what you mean?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Kinda. Keep in mind in the jumping the use a static chord because often fearful jumpers "forget" to pull it. Even in seasoned and veteran jumpers many "fail to perform" such as easy tasks to clear fouled lines, or even engage a reserve. Everyone is stumped at what happened even with a lot of experience. We can not control FRIGHT or manage it. Once that line is crossed it is a genetic response with little room (very little) for information processing. We can train to keep from crossing that line from fear to fright, but a lot of things will influence that. Training on how to avoid a fight will be far more valuable than trying to apply training once it begins. Once the fight begins your odds of winning are far slimmer than if you avoid the fight. Being IN the fight puts us at incredible risk since we will be engaged in an unorganized and no rules encounter. Ho well do you think a championship team would do against another team with NO rules even if the bad guys had NO training. That is why in cop killings the untrained bad guys have a 91% HIT rate vs trained cops 92% MISS rate. That should give you a clue.

""Wish I had more room to explain it, but the science is now there of genetic behavior vs
environmentally learned behavior. Predispositional impact on behavior is now valid in English courts. It is a form of "the devil made me do it." In our case the devil is our ancestors before us."""
......Ok, Ive got to throw this wrench in, what if Im genetically attracted to only blonde women, and Im a rapist----surely that couldnt be used as a defense.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The blonde thing probably not. But illegal, violent behavior could. Ever hear someone say, "he has bad blood?" Genetic predispositional behavior is now moving into our courts as a defense. You will hear more about it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
""As for mind set, when frightend that is stripped from us and brings forth a genetic pre-programmed response for us. When in a state of fright our mind won't care about laws, rules, morals or liability. It WILL do whatever it takes to survive.""
....panic again?
>>>>>>
NO FRIGHT. FRIGHT is not panic, but probably the terms have some interchange. FRIGHT is a strange creature. I find it a very interesting study with precious little to research.

""That is one reason you see so many bites in fights. A neanderthal genetic response.""
>>>>>>>>>>>
....I wasnt aware that they had conclusively linked us to neanderthals, but I have bittenot out of fear but that was the only opening i had,,,I was about 7.
>>>>>>>>>>>
You prove the concept well. At 7 you had NO training and resorted (kids often do this) to your genetics. You didn't have to learn to bite. It is an inbred defense system. Didn't a boxer just do this? I don't think he was hungry.

""With the science now available to us we will have to start to include making ourselves aware of this state of mind that can cause some serious problems. The mind doesn't like organized formal complex things when it thinks it is in danger.
Of all the martial arts the one I have seen used that worked was indeed JUDO. It isn't as
fancy or trendy, but at a prison near where I was a cop an oriental corrections officer
was targeted in a riot. Before he was beaten half to death he got five of them and put
each into the hospital down the hall from where they put him. This included tossing a
couple OVER a railing allowing them to fall two tiers. They out weighed him by 100
pounds. To this day nobody will screw with him.""
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

........Good for him, this could be interesting here, was he raised around a culture of judo or marital arts? Did he practice and how long had he been practicing? What was his mindset prior to the incident, had he already made up his mind to fight no matter what?......fubsy.........your right good thread.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The officer in that case was oriental with a long long family history in martial arts and I would be safe in saying it was to the level of religion. It was daily for him, not just a hobby. Until this riot he had never really used it. He was also not a very imposing figure at about 5-8 and 140=160 lbs. I loved to hear him talk about martial arts. He said, "the victory is obtained with the mind, not with the muscle." He love to OUT THINK the thugs.
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Old February 11, 2000, 10:12 AM   #27
Art Eatman
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Bringing up mind and attitude again. I've spent a lot of time in car racing, working cattle from horseback in mesquite brush, hunting alone in very rugged mountain country, and bending a lot of wrenches on cars.

Bumps and bruises and cuts and gashes.

Some 20 years or so back, I started persuading myself that pain isn't a cause for "the shakes" or puzzlement; it's a cause for anger or rage. "How DARE that rock roll under my foot?" or "How DARE that mesquite limb slap me in the face?" "How DARE that mountain lion growl at me?"

You don't get the shakes, you don't go into shock, you're not nearly as confused. You're just irate, dad-gum MAD! Of course, the induced adrenalin flow will wear off, but by then you've coped with the problem.

So that's part of my response-system when faced by a human predator. I'll do my limited best, hair, teeth and eyeballs.

Hmmm. With ever-more "falsies" in my partial plate, maybe I could do some tooth-sharpening?

Art
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Old February 11, 2000, 10:47 AM   #28
Skorzeny
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Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu comes from Kodokan Judo. You add wrestling takedowns (also present in Judo, but considered less elegant and not as often used as "classical" hip throws, for example), punching and kicking (atemi-waza, also present in Judo, but no longer really taught) and a bit more emphasis on ground work (Ne-Waza) and also add some "forbidden" submissions (like ankle locks and knee bars) to Judo and you've got BJJ. Basically, BJJ is an evolution of the pre-WWII (that is to say, pre-sports) Kodokan Judo.

I always consider current sports Judo to be a great understudy for BJJ. It is less "violent" and less "practical" than BJJ, but teaches great basic skills (falls, throws, pins and escapes) and a great deal of sportsmanship. It's great for women and kids before they start BJJ.

Fubsy:

I mean no offense, but I get the feeling that you don't really have much knowledge of grappling, because you say things like "it's too easy to be smothered on the ground if you are weaker or smaller." That's absolutely nonsense if you know even a little bit of BJJ, Judo, Sambo or Shooto. Sure, if the skill levels are similar or only a little different, then the weight and strength make the difference. However, if the skill levels are more than a little different, weight and strength make almost no difference in the outcome. There is more to grappling than the UFC. UFC and the state of grappling arts nowadays are a world apart. In addition, unlike in the earlier days, UFC now has a tons of rules that favor strikers (standup rules, rounds, time limits, ad naseum) and is no longer a good battle "laboratory."

It is nowadays also a well known fact that pure grapplers (Judo, BJJ, Sambo) will 9 times out of 10 defeat pure strikers (Karate, kickboxing, boxing), because grapplers specifically train to avoid strikes, clinch and finish the fight on the ground whereas strikers mainly (perhaps only) train to fight other strikers (usually of the same style).

The other reason why grappling is more appropriate for self-defense than striking is this: if you are able to stand up on your feet and "square off" like boxers to fight, you should really run away. You should only really fight if you absolutely have to and those situations usually involve getting tackled, choked, grabbed and bear hugged. This is especially true for women. I have been in tons of actual street fights when I was younger, more foolish and had some "issues" and seldom (almost never) did I "square off" with my opponents. They almost always happened so fast that punching and kicking ranges were crossed in a blink of the eye (yeah, that Tae Kwon Do blackbelt really did not help).

Also, If I had to pick a style of striking, it won't be boxing. It will be Muay Thai (which is one of the things I train in). It takes a great deal of practice to make hands and feet work well. It is comparatively much easier to work with elbows and knees. They are also much harder than fists and feet (BTW, fists and feet shatter, break and fracture very easily without gloves and protective gear). Elbows and knees also work at a more realistic range than fists and feet (that range is crossed too quickly in a real fight - you won't get more than a shot or two before the trapping/grappling/elbow/knee range).

This isn't just my opinion. It is the opinion shared by many of today's top unarmed fighting instructors in the world, those who train in both grappling and striking (and knife-stick fighting). They almost to a man advocate cross training, but "if you had to learn only one system," they invariably recommend a grappling system based on leverage like BJJ (as opposed to something like Greco-Roman wrestling).

Incidentally, BJJ is now (as of 2000) an offical part of the US Army Rangers unarmed fighting curriculum. Plans are now in place to teach the basics of BJJ to almost 400,000 US military pesonnel next year (2001).

Skorzeny

------------------
For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

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Old February 11, 2000, 03:37 PM   #29
fubsy
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"""Fubsy:

I mean no offense, but I get the feeling that you don't really have much knowledge of grappling, because you say things like "it's too easy to be smothered on the ground if you are weaker or smaller." That's absolutely nonsense if you know even a little bit of BJJ, Judo, Sambo or Shooto. Sure, if the skill levels are similar or only a little different, then the weight and strength make the difference. However, if the skill levels are more than a little different, weight and strength make almost no difference in the outcome."""
.....Im not offended by your opinion or view. I believe we are comparing apples and oranges here, Im talking about taking someone who has no experience and bringing them to a level of confidence with skills that should allow them to be able to defend themselves with out a commited martial lifestyle change. Im not referring to highly trained competiors....the implication is such that i can infer that never absoultely never has a non-grappler beat someone trained in the system you favor by outstrenghting them on the ground is that what your trying to say? Using our 110lb male or female? I have studied primarily issinryu and have only dabbled in the judo, jujitsu for about a year, not long, before I moved. Weather you care to believe it or not I have taken a 110lb guy to the ground and locked him up by strength. I like the stuff, I am not convinced that mr or mrs 110 lbs can go up against a strong determined attacker and be able to use all that with out training a lot. Unless I allowed some of the smaller folks to do the move it wasnt going to happen, now once they got it would work, if I couldnt break it. skorzeny, Im not arguing the effectiveness of judo or jujitsu I think it is effective with training, Idont think its necessarily the all to end all. I dont know of one martial system that is. I dont claim expertese in any of these fighting systems....i have nothing to gain from promoting one form over another.
""There is more to grappling than the UFC. UFC and the state of grappling arts nowadays are a world apart. In addition, unlike in the earlier days, UFC now has a tons of rules that favor strikers (standup rules, rounds, time limits, ad naseum) and is no longer a good battle "laboratory.""""
.......I saw some of the films put out early on and was impressed by some of the stuff, Ive never really considered it a "battle laboratory", sorry just dont. It might be as good as it gets for civilized fighting. (what an oxymoron)..

"""It is nowadays also a well known fact that pure grapplers (Judo, BJJ, Sambo) will 9 times out of 10 defeat pure strikers (Karate, kickboxing, boxing), because grapplers specifically train to avoid strikes, clinch and finish the fight on the ground whereas strikers mainly (perhaps only) train to fight other strikers (usually of the same style).""
....No doubt in my mind that once clenching starts and you go to the ground your right. Now lets throw in multiple attackers, lets throw in a knife, hmmmmmmmmm---I believe in people carrying weapons, and I realize this takes it to another realm.

""The other reason why grappling is more appropriate for self-defense than striking is this: if you are able to stand up on your feet and "square off" like boxers to fight, you should really run away. You should only really fight if you absolutely have to and those situations usually involve getting tackled, choked, grabbed and bear hugged. This is especially true for women."""
........Boxers do not have to square to throw an effective punch but it definitely helps, and all of the above can be used against you ......running unfourtunately isnt always an option but should be utilized if possible, """"I have been in tons of actual street fights when I was younger, more foolish and had some "issues" and seldom (almost never) did I "square off" with my opponents.""""
....so let me get this straight, when you were fighting in the street you never squared off but "boxer's will", most of the boxers I know come from the street.
""They almost always happened so fast that punching and kicking ranges were crossed in a blink of the eye (yeah, that Tae Kwon Do blackbelt really did not help).""
......fast is the operative word, but answer me this in all those tons of streets fights you had (prior to learning grappling), did they all go to the ground? tkd has become a great sport imo.

""Also, If I had to pick a style of striking, it won't be boxing. It will be Muay Thai (which is one of the things I train in). It takes a great deal of practice to make hands and feet work well."""
..........That is entirely my point,I think it takes more time than most people will train to become proficient in its use and not just muy thai, or grappling or Karate, or savate --to become proficient you have to put in the time..
"""It is comparatively much easier to work with elbows and knees. They are also much harder than fists and feet (BTW, fists and feet shatter, break and fracture very easily without gloves and protective gear). Elbows and knees also work at a more realistic range than fists and feet """
.......I agree with the damage you can do to your self, Ive done some and had some done to me. I get the impression that you dont think elbows and knees arent taught in Karate, and no one in boxing has ever thrown an elbow....""""(that range is crossed too quickly in a real fight - you won't get more than a shot or two before the trapping/grappling/elbow/knee range)."""
........It most certainley can be and these things happen in a whirlwind.

""""This isn't just my opinion. It is the opinion shared by many of today's top unarmed fighting instructors in the world, those who train in both grappling and striking (and knife-stick fighting). They almost to a man advocate cross training, but "if you had to learn only one system," they invariably recommend a grappling system based on leverage like BJJ (as opposed to something like Greco-Roman wrestling)."""
.....I know of no one who would discard something that works no matter where it comes from, I believe it could be successfully argued that most martial systems have borrowed heavily from each other most likely from the very beginning.
As far as who the "top unarmed instructors in world are", heck I wouldnt know who they are or who made them the top.

"""Incidentally, BJJ is now (as of 2000) an offical part of the US Army Rangers unarmed fighting curriculum. Plans are now in place to teach the basics of BJJ to almost 400,000 US military pesonnel next year (2001)."""
......it only makes sense, these guys are what carrying a appx 80-100lb pack and weapon, working on uneven terrain or wet environments, it could be very useful to these professionals who will train as their life depends on it.......fubsy.

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Old February 11, 2000, 06:15 PM   #30
Skorzeny
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Fubsy:

Lets see... Where to start...

First of all, have you ever seen Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu at work (not just on TV, but with your own eyes or maybe fight/spar against it)?

When you say Jiu-Jitsu, I wonder if you mean classical Japanese Jiu-Jitsu or Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu? These two are a world apart. Frankly, Japanese Jiu-Jitsu, because it is taught statically against a cooperating opponent, is extremely difficult to put into effect unless one has literally decades of training (like Ueshiba Morihei, the founder of Aikido).

BJJ is taught with both static, cooperative training AND full force, dynamic sparring, which allows you learn to deal with unexpected or strong (or both) momvements by your opponent.

My wife is that 110lbs. person with very little muscle. She used to know next to nothing about fighting before she started BJJ and now, she can choke, armbar, leglock and do all sorts of nasty things against guys who are 175-200lbs. and untrained in grappling. They are very baffled and amazed. One second, they are trying to strangulate her and the next second, their elbows are hyper-extended and ready to break. Or they think that they are on top of her, and the next second their knees and ankles are ready to break from a heel hook.

I myself weigh 175lbs. and I have sparred (everything allowed except eye gouging, fish hooking, biting and groin grabs) with "blackbelts" in all sorts of Karate systems, amateur boxers as well as wrestlers with much greater weight than me (225-250lbs.) and have submitted them handily. I can't really think of any other system that would let me do that against such well trained, bigger athletes in a relatively realistic context.

You've got to see it with your own eyes to believe it. I urge you to go down to the local BJJ school if you can find one, find someone other than a rank beginner (and somone who weighs much less than you) and say "that Jiu-Jitsu stuff doesn't work on me. I can just overpower you and smother you." I guarantee you that you will get a free opinion adjustment. You may feel pain, but you won't get hurt permanently, because the chances are, you will tap or submit (or pass out from the carotid choke).

Almost all of my fights during my youth did indeed go to the ground. This is one of the reasons why I started to look for a grappling art eons ago. I think that my experience mirros those of many others.

Sure boxers can throw elbows. That's like saying a TKD practitioner can also throw a punch. See what I mean? I don't think that pure boxers really know the most effective bio-mechanics of an elbow strike nor can he really throw it with effectiveness and accuracy, because he does not train in it. I know many Karate systems that teach elbows and knees, but I have almost never seen them use them in a real fight or even in sparring. Training statically in elbows and knees aren't going to help. You have to use them full force (naturally with protective gear) against a dynamic, moving opponent to learn how to apply them effectively.

No Holds Barred events are excellent laboratories to see what works and what does not, depending on the rules (usually the less the better). They show what works in a mano-a-mano unarmed fight. Of course, multi-opponent and armed fights are different.

But if that is your argument against grappling, are you somehow suggesting that those systems which are ineffective in one-on-one fights (like most Karate systems, Japanese Jiu-Jitsu, etc. etc. ad naseum) some how magically become effective against armed or multiple opponents?

I have been in fights with more than one person (and with weapons) and I can tell you that unless you are incredibly and extraordinarily skilled AND the opponents are completely clueless, you will get seriously injured (and I was). If you have to deal with multi-opponents and/or armed opponents, you find an equalizer. And that is not BJJ, Karate, Judo, boxing etc. etc. You get yourself a rock, a ruler, a knife, a stick, a pistol, a shotgun or a rifle.

If you think that any amount of boxing or Isshinryu Karate is going to get you out safely against four guys who are decently athletic or are armed with knives, stick or whatever, you either saw too many Steven Seagal movies to know what real fights are like. Then, it really doesn't matter how much I try to convince you, isn't it?

Skorzeny

------------------
For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

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Old February 11, 2000, 06:21 PM   #31
Skorzeny
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I forgot to mention the great Helio Gracie who is like 5'6" and 100lbs. and 80 years old, still spank the big wrestlers, Aikidoists, Karate practioners, boxers and etc. who show up to check out BJJ.

He was only defeated twice. Once to the reigning Japanese Judo champion, Kimura (who was mover 100lbs. heavier, over a decade younger and exceptionally skilled, perhaps the best Judoka who ever lived) in a grappling match and once in NHB to his top student who was twenty years younger in an epic 2 1/2 hour fight with almost no rules.

Show me a 5'6", 100lbs. 80 years old boxer who can fight and beat younger, bigger, stronger and more athletic boxers let alone other stylists.

That says a lot about the techniques (based on leverage) of BJJ.

Skorzeny

------------------
For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

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Old February 11, 2000, 09:11 PM   #32
fubsy
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skorzeny,
I thought I was pretty clear but apparently not....How long have you been in training? How long has your wife trained?, I wont even ask about Mr. Gracie. My point was and is most people will not dedicate the time necessary to become proficient. You disagree? How long does it take for someone in grappling to become proficient in self defense? Im not against grappling be it bjj, or shoote fighting or any thing that gives you an edge, period.
""Fubsy:
Lets see... Where to start...

"""First of all, have you ever seen Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu at work (not just on TV, but with your own eyes or maybe fight/spar against it)?""
.....Ok, My shoulder is healing from from my last go round but..do recommend someone in my area if you know of anyone and Ill go and check it out...I live near Inverness, fla.,...and I need a new place to workout and to learn new things.

""When you say Jiu-Jitsu, I wonder if you mean classical Japanese Jiu-Jitsu or Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu? These two are a world apart. Frankly, Japanese Jiu-Jitsu, because it is taught statically against a cooperating opponent, is extremely difficult to put into effect unless one has literally decades of training (like Ueshiba Morihei, the founder of Aikido)."""
.....No what we were working with was not bjj,...drawing a blank here....shoot, he's out of Clarksville Ky., he was one of the judges in the olympic judo in atlanta.....

BJJ is taught with both static, cooperative training AND full force, dynamic sparring, which allows you learn to deal with unexpected or strong (or both) momvements by your opponent.

My wife is that 110lbs. person with very little muscle. She used to know next to nothing about fighting before she started BJJ and now, she can choke, armbar, leglock and do all sorts of nasty things against guys who are 175-200lbs. and untrained in grappling. They are very baffled and amazed. One second, they are trying to strangulate her and the next second, their elbows are hyper-extended and ready to break. Or they think that they are on top of her, and the next second their knees and ankles are ready to break from a heel hook.

I myself weigh 175lbs. and I have sparred (everything allowed except eye gouging, fish hooking, biting and groin grabs) with "blackbelts" in all sorts of Karate systems, amateur boxers as well as wrestlers with much greater weight than me (225-250lbs.) and have submitted them handily. I can't really think of any other system that would let me do that against such well trained, bigger athletes in a relatively realistic context.

You've got to see it with your own eyes to believe it. I urge you to go down to the local BJJ school if you can find one, find someone other than a rank beginner (and somone who weighs much less than you) and say "that Jiu-Jitsu stuff doesn't work on me. I can just overpower you and smother you." I guarantee you that you will get a free opinion adjustment. You may feel pain, but you won't get hurt permanently, because the chances are, you will tap or submit (or pass out from the carotid choke).

Almost all of my fights during my youth did indeed go to the ground. This is one of the reasons why I started to look for a grappling art eons ago. I think that my experience mirros those of many others.

Sure boxers can throw elbows. That's like saying a TKD practitioner can also throw a punch. See what I mean? I don't think that pure boxers really know the most effective bio-mechanics of an elbow strike nor can he really throw it with effectiveness and accuracy, because he does not train in it. I know many Karate systems that teach elbows and knees, but I have almost never seen them use them in a real fight or even in sparring. Training statically in elbows and knees aren't going to help. You have to use them full force (naturally with protective gear) against a dynamic, moving opponent to learn how to apply them effectively.
.......sounds like you fight how you train..., One of the major concerns for me when i was looking to start back into was get realistic as I could, realizing that I still had to work that day. Im all for realistic training.

No Holds Barred events are excellent laboratories to see what works and what does not, depending on the rules (usually the less the better). They show what works in a mano-a-mano unarmed fight. Of course, multi-opponent and armed fights are different.

""""But if that is your argument against grappling, are you somehow suggesting that those systems which are ineffective in one-on-one fights (like most Karate systems, Japanese Jiu-Jitsu, etc. etc. ad naseum) some how magically become effective against armed or multiple opponents?""""
.......oh, good heavens no..I simply see multiple opponents as a sincere problem for any system grappling or standing, I sort of like a spyderco clipt defense against grabs..My argument is not against grappling.....its providing something that will work with out a years of dedication, most people will not train.

"""I have been in fights with more than one person (and with weapons) and I can tell you that unless you are incredibly and extraordinarily skilled AND the opponents are completely clueless, you will get seriously injured (and I was). If you have to deal with multi-opponents and/or armed opponents, you find an equalizer. And that is not BJJ, Karate, Judo, boxing etc. etc. You get yourself a rock, a ruler, a knife, a stick, a pistol, a shotgun or a rifle."""""
....I think ive been saying that, about weapons from the start. Mr. Colt had it right.

""""If you think that any amount of boxing or Isshinryu Karate is going to get you out safely against four guys who are decently athletic or are armed with knives, stick or whatever, you either saw too many Steven Seagal movies to know what real fights are like. Then, it really doesn't matter how much I try to convince you, isn't it?"""
......thats good, and if I believed something so ignorant you would be right. I tend to tailor everything I do as realistically as I can make it....I never was one for tournaments with point fighting and all that mess, cause I think it gives you bad habits---I choose issinryu because the folks there were going at it real good, they were a small school that didnt advertise and had been in business appx 20 years or so at the time. Im not promoting isshinryu as an alternative, I dont think its the all to end all, it is a solid foundation to go from, and has been for me.....Im not saying that grappling isnt a good compliment or good base to other fighting styles, I pass up nothing that helps, I think it requires more training then most people will give it......thats my point. Im not arguing the high school equivalent of "my team's better than Yours"....I also dont necessarily think most folks unless they just have the desire are going to get into it all the time....but as we all kn0w -it does happen.
Ive enjoyed the thread, and if you can direct me to someone In this area I would appreciate it.
.............fubsy.


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Old February 12, 2000, 01:27 AM   #33
stdalire
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Pluspinc said:
"As for mind set, when frightend that is stripped from us and brings forth a genetic pre-programmed response for us. When in a state of fright our mind won't care about laws, rules, morals or liability. It WILL do whatever it takes to survive."

I agree 100% on this comment not just by a Hypothetical affirmation but I absolutely agree to this premise, as it did happen on my life several times. And even up to this time if my life and my family lives is at stake, I don't care any laws, rules, morals and liability, because survival or saving of my breath is the most important to be taken care of.

I observe that several poster is saying again that this type of Martial Arts is better or the best then this kind, well it is every one interpretation and opinions. As I have said, there is no such Martial Arts Style as the ultimate kind for self defense or better than the other. This can be proven if the Learner or Practioner have studied several style and they were in actual encounter.

I appreciate the one who said that all martial arts borrowed from one another the kind of techniques they have of their own and each martial arts will grow from that point. That is true, look at karate of any style, it has striking techniques, grabbing or grappling, as well as locking and breaking techniques.

Take an example of any karate style and that of Tae Kwon Do. Many strikes if not all or techniques of TKD are presents in Karate. There are many innovations of many Instructors that they combined Karate and Judo, or vice versa.

My MA at early age that I attend classes every night for 2 to 3 hrs is still the kind of martial arts I depend very well. The instructor called it, WADO Style and he combined it with Hapkido and few Aikido and I see it very effective. I was only given a belt of Green when I was in that Club for 2 yrs continuous study and practice, but got 1st Dan Black Belt under "Presas" when I fought with his assistants in a belting promotion competition, but I relied much on my early age martial arts foundation.

As I said when I was in Manila at my college yrs, I look every commercial club that offers the best MA style, but I found out that many are just innovation but not an original style which every instructor can do that. Any instructor who have studied long in karate, Judo and TKD or any MA - can mix all several techniques of these MA's and give a new name of it and put a club. But the truth the style they are teaching are just combination of several martial arts.

I know, Judo, Karate, Hapkido, Tae Kwondo, Kendo and Arnis but to my mind they have many in commons. And I still call my martial Arts Karate. If you combined all these we called it combat. Very rare, or none at all that is very distinct than the other martial arts style. Only stick fighting, arnis or escrima, kendo or sword fighting are very different among the barehands MA's. All barehands MA's are almost the same. Look TKD only active in using mostly of the feet, but any karate player can excel on any expertise he wants, good on the feet, hands, grabbing or grappling etc. Compare Aikido, Judo and Jujitsu. All are the same in taking advantage by using opponent force and apply straight or circular movements. With the BJJ as being mentioned I haven't seen one in my country teaching of this, but as was described that it a mixture of Judo, shotokan, etc., So, most of the techniques are all combination of the mentioned MA styles.

One asked how many of us had broken knuckles, fingers or the hand of hard practice. Well, it depends on our purpose and our personality to take all these training. In fact we don't need to continue having hard training as we get older but we use our mind and we should be wise. I think the "TRAINING SUBJECT WILL BE ANOTHER TOPIC".

Thank you for the good discussions.




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Old February 12, 2000, 12:15 PM   #34
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Nice thread guys! I thoroughly enjoyed reading it!

By practice it is meant the participation and acceptance of the Four Noble Truths: suffering, adapting, non-attachment, and practicing the Dharma. First comes suffering. When followers of the Way suffer, they should recall that in the countless previous incarnations they have been deterred from the path, sometimes becoming trivial and angry even without cause. The suffering in this life is a punishment, but also an opportunity to exercise what I have learned from past lives. Men and gods are equally unable to see where a seed may bear fruit. I accept this suffering as a challenge and with an open heart. In recognizing suffering, you enter onto the path to the Way.

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Old February 13, 2000, 01:38 AM   #35
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Svt: What a nice philosophical anectodotes for the MA's and applicable to life also.

Yes, in all life be it in martial arts, suffering will comes first, for we trained hard to to reach our objective i.e. to hardened our knuckles, hands, feet, strong joints (but can be split to the extent)
and sufferings - to take the punches/strikes of the opponents/sparring mate in club or in actual fight. In those sufferings, we become stronger, developed a sense of maturity and becoming more wise and a winner the second time around when we are defeated in the first round.

Adaptation, it is true we must adapt to any kind of MA styles for what we know only might not be enough to counter other forces from other knowledge of different players. We adapt to the environment what particular MA to use. Like for instance myself, if I am in my province I depend much on my arnis if in case I'll be attacked by bolos or stick. Then perhaps you see several stick to use a substitute of the burnth rattan. Whilst if we are in a social gathering and some BG will do such nuisance for our ladies, then the clean barehands martial arts can be used such as karate, Judo, TKD or BJJ for there is no burnt rattan scattered around the corner. Well there are many weapons such as the chairs, tables, wine bottle, but we should be decent even in fighting not to spoil our dress and handsome faces, and these are all adaptation.

The challenges: we expect any trouble even on time of peace as the devils play its role from time to time as the Equilibrium of nature and unseen forces. Like Le Kuan Yew of singapore have stated, he is arming missile of his country even on time of peace for. The other ways definitions I will leave it to he rest to discuss.

As for the superiority of any MA's I remember a joke that one small size asian is sitting with big caucasian guy (be it american, european, or russian I don't know). The asian was sandwich between the two big guy in an open theater and cannot move freely anymore, what he did is he do lightning stomping kick to the feet of the guys and the big brothers look around who did that, not knowing it was done by the small man just behind them. So there are ways a small guy can deliver a blow and perhaps be in win-win situation over a big guy in Martial Arts.

To add with Svt's beautiful words, when we gain more knowledge in MA's and we got a black belt, as we get older and keep practicing, the black belt will become white for it is being used always. I compared that to martial artist, as we get older we are becoming wiser not depending anymore on the brute force of martial arts.

thank you,



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Old February 14, 2000, 05:03 AM   #36
Chuck Ames
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This is not meant as a flame to Pluspinc, but come on!!!!

I am so tired of hearing that genetics are so important. Genetics are an influencing factor, not determinitive.

Let's look at my family. I,the first child, am not very aggressive at all. My brother, on the other hand is. Why? Genetics? Let's look back at how we grew up. My little bro and I fought. As a youngster, I was bigger and stronger, so I had to hold back more. He on the other hand, gave it all he had (and still lost :-). He won a lot of fights as a teenager, and I lost a few.

I have since had to train some of my restraint out of me. Just because a scientist hypothesizes, or a court admits something as evidence doesn't mean it isn't crap, it just means someone convinces someone else of that crap don't stink!

There is plenty of evidence that genetics influence behavior (alcoholism, depression, etc.), however, so does environment (abuse, etc). There are plenty of people who have broken the cycle of nature/nurture. Never forget training, like the cop who fired 8 rounds from a revolver during a gunfight, and the investigators couldn't find the brass. It was in his pocket, just like he had been conditioned on the range. While it's certainly an example of how not to train, the fact is, training saves lives. I once had a disagreement with a First Sergeant who said, because we went to the range and used our holsters when we qualified, we trained with them. No, that is using your holster. Training involves repitition, and muscle memory.

Good training involves psychology and physiology. Conditioning allows us to better cope with the fight/flight reflex and have the feeling of "this sucks, but I've been here before." It is unnatural to kill one's own species, and an animalistic brawl is certainly not what we were designed for (hence the broken hands so often seen in fist fights). Thus the way is in training. Good training.

Miyamoto Musashi said, "The way of the warrior is death." Another author expounded on that and said that it is only when you accept you own death as inevitable, that you can truly be effective in a fight (badly paraphrased, I'm sorry). The point of course is that your mindset, more than your technique is decisive. If you allow yourself to SUCCUMB to fear, you will fail. If you experience it, then you are normal. If you have been trained and conditioned, then you will fight, and if you have accepted death, you will win decisively.

I'm just someone who is tired of science giving society excuses for failure.

Chuck
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Old February 14, 2000, 05:29 AM   #37
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I'm just someone who is tired of science giving society excuses for failure.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Science gives us a REASON for failure. Not an excuse. They are not the same. You you claim if we take 100 20 year old men off the street at random, expose all of them to the same training they will all have the same level of proficiency? Of course not. The military sure knows that as some win medals and some hide.
There are two types of behavior. One is genetic. The other is environmental. The separated twins study at the Univeristy of Minnesota clearly has shown over 20+ years that environmental behavior has far less influence than genetics. Much less in fact.
You may not like it, but you can't ignore it. Well you can I guess, but denial isn't a river in Egypt.
As Dirty Harry said, " a man has to know his limitations." I for one would never think that I could take any martial arts training and compete with it or rely on it. That is NOT me. I'm a gun person. I bet you know a lot of GREAT martial arts types that could hit a barn if they were in it with a gun.
And you can't always teach one to do the other. If we could my Husky would go pheasant hunting with me and point birds and retrieve.
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Old February 14, 2000, 08:44 AM   #38
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Chuck Ames have said: The point of course is that your mindset, more than your technique is decisive. If you allow yourself to SUCCUMB to fear, you will fail. If you experience it, then you are normal. If you have been trained and conditioned, then you will fight, and if you have accepted death, you will win decisively.

The above statements is what really I want to emphasize. Decisiveness and fear not to the outcome of a fight is one of the best factor to win or be in good shape in any dangers we encounter. Being trained and conditioned is the other factor to be in a win-win situation because we seems programmed to do things without hesitant or reservations. This includes conditioning of the mind to do such actions supported by the conditioned body. if a person has these criteria, for sure he is determined to all things he will do.

Sometimes, even the body is strong if the mind is weak, it will affect the physical body to act correctly. But there were times too, the physical body is not that strong but the mind will power is too strong, the unexpected great forces may emerge from us.

Thanks,


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Old February 14, 2000, 10:36 AM   #39
Gabe Suarez
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In order of importance,
1). Attentiveness to Your Surroundings (sometimes difficult)
2). A developed mental/emotional attitude that can go to "animal" faster than the unfolding situation, and a willingness to to be violent (trainable)
3). A strong body that can take stress.
4). Finally, the least important, technical ability in BASIC FIGHTING TECHNIQUES.

Notice that the most important issues are Situational Awareness, and an attitude that is aggressive (not prey). We're all human. If Bruce Lee was ever taken by surprise, he'd go down like anybody else.

If you see a nasty situation developing, you can leave, although sometimes you cannot do that. If you must stay and fight, you must be more violent than the attacker. No one I've ever ever seen has won a fight with a good defense.

The techniques will be very basic and forceful. Three or four punches, three kicks (all below the waist to groin or legs), as well as some maneuvering (don't trip over yourself). Stay off the deck at all costs!

The reason most fights end up on the deck is that people close and lose balance. In police circles its due to the officer "trying to control rather than end the fight". UFC to the contrary, if you go to the deck with one man, his partner will stick an ice-pick in your back, or shoot you when you are "In the Mount".

The problem with most traditional arts is just that, they're arts. They are intended for things other than pure, ugly, dirty, unannounced-by surprise combat. Moreover, they are structured to keep students coming back for years to learn more and more techniques, and kata. It doesn't take twenty years of temple-living to be a warrior. You can learn to fight in a year if you are physically able, and keep yourself in shape.

I'd rather fight a guy who's studied for ten years, in poor physical condition, and never fought anyone for years, than a muscular ex-con with the right attitude!

Finally, if you carry weapons, you must be able to integrate them, and transition back and forth between them and your body weapons.

Gabe Suarez
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Old February 15, 2000, 09:16 PM   #40
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Fubsy:

Where is Inverness, FL? What is the nearest major city? Orlando, Miami, Jacksonville? Once I have that information, I can tell you about the nearest BJJ school.

Mr. Suarez:

I certainly agree with much of what you wrote and I most certainly agree that one should TRY not to go to the ground unless one absolutely as to.

However, let me ask you this: what if your opponent takes you to the ground? What if he tackles you down or what if you and he clinch and then both fall to the ground? Then what? And consider that you may not be armed (I realize that YOU may always be armed, but let's assume for the moment that you are not armed OR that you had no chance to arm yourself).

It's all good and nice to say that one ought to have "good balance" and not fall, but the reality of many fights is that people tend to crash in, clinch and fall (or generally end up on the ground). This is the part that BJJ, Shooto, Sambo and other more combative ground fighting systems deal with.

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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

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Old February 16, 2000, 10:42 AM   #41
Gabe Suarez
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Skorzeny,

You make some excelent points, and I agree with everything you said. Fighting on the ground is an important skill to have, but it must be kept in perspective. Its like placing all the emphasis on "weak handed" shooting. While its an important skill to have in the toolbox, it will probably not be used very often. And certainly no one in their right mind will want to use their "weak hand" on purpose. Its a similar issue with ground fighting.

No don't get me wrong, I am not for one minute saying I am "the world's best ground fighter" or any such nonsense. But what I AM saying is that we must keep it in perspective.

If you go to ground in a real fight - as opposed to "wrestling" with a belligerent friend, or a non-lethal encounter at a party or something, you will probably get kicked, stomped, stabbed, or shot in the back by your hapless opponent's friends. I've seen it a dozen times.

Not only that, but now, as you do the roll-around on the grainy, broken glas strewn asphalt (what no mats!!??) with your diry, smelly, diseased adverasry (criminals are generally dirty people), you are exposed to all his germs, blood, and other body fluids (Even though the PC Docs say you can't catch stuff that way, I don't want to find out). After filling out "Exposure to airborne and blood borne pathogens forms" more times that I can remember, going to the deck is NOT my Plan A.

If I end up on the deck, I will try to do as much physical damage as I can to the other guy (stabbing, biting, gouging, breaking fingers, ripping out eyes, etc.) because I consider the act of taking me to the deck an illustration of his intent to use deadly force against me.

As for always being armed, I do a good bit of traveling and consulting in what some call "non-permissive" environments where I can't really have my usual battery of doom-delivery systems. But I try to always be armed with something, even if its just a sharp #2 Ticonderoga.

Grappling is good, Ground Fighting is better, not having do deploy those emergency techniques in a fight because you stayed on your feet is best of all.

Cheers,

Gabe Suarez - HALO Group http://www.thehalogroup.com
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Old February 16, 2000, 03:23 PM   #42
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Skorzeny,
Im reasonably in the boonies although not quite like it used to be......the eaisest way is probably to locate Ocala, which is the largest city that Im near. find Ocala on the map and head to the gulf and Im not to far from it.......lets see maybe, brooksville might have something it has grown up a lot since I left this area. Gainsville might a place as well, although its a bit of a drive....hope that helps...fubsy.
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Old February 18, 2000, 10:11 PM   #43
Spectre
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Chuck and Gabe,

Good take.

Skorzeny, I agree that weapons should be used if an option (if we couldn't run). I disagree with your statements regarding koryu arts. I feel that learning to fight (to use your example) from sitting on the floor can only enhance the times when not encumbered with such a starting position.

Genetics is a factor, but it isn't the genetics that is making the punches against me move slower, now.
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Old February 20, 2000, 02:22 AM   #44
Skorzeny
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Fubsy:

It appears that there is no BJJ school near where you live. However, check http://bjj.org/academies/ and click on "Florida" and see if there is an academy near you.

Even if only once, I really urge you to check out BJJ. I think that you will find it to be very unique and effective in its approach to fighting. Unlike many "traditional" arts like TKD, Wing Chun, Karate and whatnot, BJJ has been found to be extremely effective in realistic (if not quite "real") simulations or substitutes of street fights such as no-holds barred fighting contests of various kinds.

In fact, unlike point-fighting or "traditional" tournaments where the participants still hold on to their traditional "pure" techniques, no-holds barred fighters everywhere, be they in Japan, Europe or the United States, have all taken to incorporating BJJ techniques into their arsenal. I am avid observer of this type of contests/fighting and I keep track of these events in the US, Japan and Europe. Whether boxers, Karate-men, Judoka, Muay Thai kickboxers or Shootfighters, they now all train in some sort of BJJ/ground techniques if they participate in minimum-rules, NHB events.

Mr. Suarez:

Again, I don't mean to be argumentative here, but do you really believe that in the scenario that we are discussing (no weapons and being tackled or somehow falling to the ground with an attacker), you can effectively use finger-breaking, eye-gouging or using improvised weapons?

I don't know whether you have tried this (you probably have, being a trainer of leathal force and all), but my training partners (including my "little" wife) and I sometimes have our opponents put on some heavy gloves, some minimal safety gear and then have them get on our top (the mount) and have them beat on us while we try to escape or submit them.

In our experience, in most of those situations, there is simply no time to try to break fingers, gouge eyes or try to deploy (in our case) simulated knives, while blows are raining down on our faces from the top. Besides, the assailant is in better position to do those things than you are.

What worked best for all of us has been the basic mount escape BJJ/Vale Tudo technique of 1) a little mini-"oompa" to make the person stop punching temporarily (because he has to base or "brace" himself with his hands or risk being thrown off), 2) hold his head with one arm, trap one of his arms with the other arm and hook on same side foot, 3a) bridge and oompa to the trapped side and now you are on top (though in his "guard") or 3b) bridge, then sink back to the ground and then use the space between two of you to put on a heel hook (which will break at minimum the knee and possibly the ankle and the hip joints as well).

Also, utilizing your analogy of ground fighting techniques as something akin to weak-hand shooting, I'll say this: you sure would practice that a lot if during 90% of your gunfights, your strong-hand became disabled, wouldn't you?

While it may not be exactly 90%, many people report that a great majority of fights do go to the ground for whatever reasons and this often negates the possibility of using stand-up techniques often taught my more traditional arts.

Also, you cite the possibility of being attacked by a second assailant during grappling. This is certainly true. But let me ask you this: if you are standing up and exchanging punches and kicks with one man, wouldn't it be also possible for his friend(s) to approach you from behind and do the same things to you (like stabbing you in the back with an icepick like you wrote)? It seems to me, you generally lose when you fight against more than one person whether you use BJJ or any other fighting system. So, I believe that this isn't a particular, unique weakness for BJJ only.

By the way, Mr. Suarez, do you have any experience or training in BJJ, Sambo, Shooto or other similar realism-oriented grappling/ground fighting arts?

Skorzeny

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Old February 21, 2000, 03:02 AM   #45
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I'll stick my ignorant snout in here for a second, and note that in between the "go to the mat whenever possible" and "avoid the mat whenever possible" extremes, there is perhaps a need to know how to get from your current predicament to a state in which you have an advantage?

thus, the boxer/kicker needs to know how to get out of grapples and back to punch/kick range, and the grappler needs to know how to close against a skilled boxer/kicker. I'm sure others have stated this idea more clearly elsewhere. based on the few bar fights I've seen, transitioning between ranges is as important as anything else (2nd thing would be how to finish & disengage before the bouncers arrive to eject the defender). it would be interesting to me how you folks evaluate the various MA in that respect.



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Old February 21, 2000, 07:33 AM   #46
stdalire
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Ivanhoe stated "...thus, the boxer/kicker needs to know how to get out of grapples and back to punch/kick range, and the grappler needs to know how to close against a skilled boxer/kicker".

That is what I have said from the very start that there is no such thing as MA Style being the best or superior among others as self defense.

Sometimes, there were instances where a no MA person can surprisely attack another and can knockdown nor did not give any chance to the the opponent to deliver a strike.

When I don't have yet any formal schooling in MA's I resulted to my provincial training of no-hold-barred. As long as the fight started each of the fighter will go on till one cannot stand anymore. In one occassion, a school mate of mine who just don't like my face walk beside me while I am walking infront of our school and keeps saying nasty words, suddenly he just side step and kick at my side. He landed his good side kick on my ribs and my school uniform was even torn with his shoes heel perhaps. I cannot fight back as he is really good.

What I did, the following morning, when I saw the guy sitting at our school gate. I did not show any act of vengeance, but when I was near to him, I immediately and continuously punch his head/face while he is still sitting, and mind you he was not able to fight back. That was a surprise attack from me to the karate man.

Now the point is: I calculated when I attacked and I made a surprise attacked (it may be called treachery) but I was determined to do it for I pre meditated to do such action.

So, it is like Ivanhoe said, ....to know how to get out...... needs to know how to close against a .......

Talking again from experience... a particular Mr. X in my country who has a lot of shooting experiences of rifle. We are great enemies, but out of court records. After all what he did to me, I have decided to make a vengeance. I was decided to kill him on that moment. One time I saw that he is not holding his rifle... I went to him directly to stab him with my balisong for I want to kill him but one of my grand father not knowing that he is at my back immediately hold my hands with the knife, "it is not imposible for our old folks to stop someone with knife" many Filipinos too are expert in knife. Then the rifle man was able to ride on his motorcycle to escape but still I regain myself and run after him but it is already out of my reach. He went to his detachment to get his rifle but I am already out of range that time when he was able to come back. I did all these for vengeance for all things he did to me and my family. The guy leave our place for fear of his life also, and even until now that he return to my locality, if he see me he is not getting near to me or hoping our way won't get cross.

Previously, I am trying to edit my writings to refrain of hurting ones feeling, but now I need to say all things in putting all the necessary elements of it in a way to see the reality in real self defense. Theory is very much different than those who really experienced the actual happening.

It is like a soldier, a soldier cannot be called combatant if he is just in the four corners of his office room till he retire. The same with a martial arts player, he is nothing if he did not proven or have been in real street fight, not necessarily to kill or get killed.

Sometimes, also, environment would be taken into consideration. There are places in my country in the rural areas where there is really danger and professionalism and waiting for imminent danger before you react will put you at disadvantage position.

My other purpose in showing this example is, if a person is provoked much or afraid that his life will be taken first by evils, then a true self defense is Determination and no hesitation to consumate his intention.

Again, sometimes, training is not a guarranty you're a 100% ready. I'll give you example.

I am with a two friend soldier in one house, we were having a get together, a seven (7) communist guerilla knock and when I opened the front door, they declare they are communist and immediately looked for the 2 soldiers. But with my amazement, my two friend soldiers were out of my sight already, so I was left thereat. When I asked the other 5 rebels to get inside the house, they refused so, what I did I just went out to talk with their commander using my knowledge in talking things pertaining to activism in college and I was able to avert a confrontation.

To make the story short, after almost 3 hrs talking they left.

I look for my two soldier friends, I found out one of them is on the attic and the other one was able to escape when he sense the people outside the house were communist. Of course the house area cannot be cordoned as there are only 7 in numbers.

What the communist told me, why I did not run from them, if I did that they told me I will be shot for they think I will get a gun inside the house. I am just thankful they did not get me with them. The barrio officials went to the Police detachment (4 kilometers away) but they dared not to respond to the emergency call for they think it is a bait and they will be ambushed on the way.

Now, with the stories I gave you, running sometimes is not a good move for self defense, it may caused death also. Surprise is a good element also. My two soldiers friend were surprised too.

Hope the stories I gave can give you some perspective in real self defense.

Thank you,
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Old February 21, 2000, 11:31 PM   #47
Gabe Suarez
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Skorzeny - I don't consider you argumentative at all. Quite to the contrary, a pro must be able to explain why he beleives a certain way, or why not.

I've trained in Ju-jitsu ( from a japanese, not Brazilian), and a bunch of other arts, some of which trained in ground 'fighting". I think Brazilian Ju Jitsu is a great art, and know one of the Gracie family personally. But even he agrees that if there are three bad guys, the technique to use comes from Austria (he was joking about the Glock-Waza).

Regarding breaking fingers, I broke my left thumb when I was trying to "control" a gan-member about a year ago. Nasty stuff - broken thumbs, but I did practice a great deal of one-handed shooting!

A few other times, the finger breaking, and other things was on the other end. One officer I know was pinned and mounted. he almost evicerated his attacker with a Spyderco Civilian. He was reprimanded for carrying a knife, but he's still alive.
Suffice to say that its not difficult. Also, if you are being pummeled, you will likely have at least one hand free to get whatever you need to get.

Sure, you may not be able to do so, and in that case, the techniques you mention are just the ticket.

I think the bottom line is that to be complete 'warriors" we must know how to fight on all surfaces and in all battlefields. Some battlefields are more dangerous than others, and to be avoided...unless they are unavoidable.

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Old February 22, 2000, 09:46 AM   #48
Skorzeny
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Mr. Suarez:

Thank you for your very reasonable and logical response. I certainly applaud the officer in question for utilizing his knife effectively and saving himself from trouble.

I certainly carry a pocket knife myself (a Gerber E-Z Out, though I always meant to get a Spyderco) and fully intend to put it to good use if deadly force is being used against me. I may not have made it clear, but I would certainly rather use my knife (and on my feet) than be grappling (like I've said before repeatedly, grappling is the "last ditch" thing). Of course, what I would "like" and what actually happens in a fight are two different things (if I had "my way," a fight would not have started in the first place, I guess, and even then I'd rather end a fight quickly with an elbow or two and a knee or two).

If you are not too uncomfortable dropping names, may I ask who the Gracie family member you know personally is?

BTW: thanks for carrying out this dialog with me. It's been fun, to say the least.

Skorzeny

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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

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Old February 27, 2000, 02:19 AM   #49
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http://www.americancombatives.com/

A disturbing brutal and wonderfully effective form of close-quarter combat was taught to the Allied operatives of WWII. It has all but disappeared, having been replaced by strip-mall martial arts studios. An example of the philosophy: even Gracie JuJitsu is a joke compared to CQB. If you allow a fight to go to the ground ("grappling"), you're a dead man, because as you're gaining an advantage through your superior wrestling skills and working your way into a submission hold, the thug's friend will walk over and puncture you with a knife. American Combatives is one of perhaps four or five similar organizations in the world that teach how to incapacitate or kill a man in a few seconds. I was a Marine in Vietnam, and I thought that the USMC close-quater combat system was one of the most effective hard-core fighting systems in the world, until I ran across John Gary of AC. Since then I've studied the CQB field in some depth, and have discovered that the old WWII commando techniques seem to be experiencing something of a renaissance, in othe schools as well. I think that's the good news and the bad news: it won't be long before the bad guys learn this stuff, too. Right now there's a lot of pride and discipline in keeping the techniques private, and requiring proof of good character in one form or another (ie, CCW) before being admitted to training. Sooner or later, though, it will all be out in the open.

As a sort of poetic justice, another equally brutual and effective CQB form was developed by the KGB and used throughout the cold war. It's a little too much even for me to read the techniques, as many of them are designed for abduction off the street of, shall we say, interviewees, and subsequent encouragement of them to relate important information that they might otherwise have preferred to keep to themselves. But such study does go a long way to motivating a person to learn to defend himself, as it becomes quite clear quite quickly how incredibly vulnerable the human body is to focused and knowledgable forcible breach.

Martial arts are for sport, fitness, belonging to an elite group, and (the better ones like sambo, Thai boxing, escrima, and jujitsu) real-world fighting. They take years to learn well, and support various forms of training which may include sparring and katas. Martial arts teach you how to trade blows with the enemy.

If you want to learn trade blows, study a martial art. But have no illusions that such study will make even the slightest difference in a real-world encounter. It may, in fact, get you killed, as if you had sheepishly stood by and let the bad guy take your wallet instead of throwing a side kick at him, he might have let you survive.

I'm here as a third-generation warrior, with a son who's a sergeant in the Rangers, to tell you: never trade blows with the enemy. Put that thought far out of your mind. Never even consider trading blows with the enemy.

You try never to strike anyone, ever. Walk away. He calls your wife a slut; walk away. Run if you must. He pees on you and laughs, and his friends laugh. Ignore it; walk away. He's drunk and throws a sucker roundhouse punch at you; move to the side, tie him up, hand him to his friends, and walk away. Unless he's threatening someone with lethal damage, unless a life is on the line, you walk away.

You try never to strike anyone, but when you must, you strike only one blow. Only one, but such a harsh one that your enemy can never, never strike back.

Usually that's enough, but if it isn't, you strike again in the same way, and again, until there is no threat left.

A concrete example. Ever notice that the supposedly no-holds-barred Octagon rules prohibit eye gouges and neck hits? These are two of the most destructive and effective blows there are. If he's right in front of you and coming at you, slip your fingers in a claw up the front of his face from below and jam them right into his eyes, full bore. He won't see them coming up like that. End of fight. Or, he's coming at you from the side. Spin and deliver the bottom outside of your wrist, hand open like a movie "karate chop", right into the Adam's apple, full force, crushing his trachea, perhaps killing him.

How long does it take to learn this kind of system? Maybe five or six hours. It's not that hard. There are five or six blows (I've given you two of them) and four or five places to strike. Blocks are simple, just enough to get out of the way of an attack in order to strike. No stance, no punching, no deep flexibility, no kicks above the knee level. They're not needed. Just a few very simple sequences that are applied over and over, in this situation and in that.

Weapons? A knife is good. Lots known about what works, from WWII, where they had to use them over and over and over, and came back with reports on what worked and what didn't. Guns are good, but forget getting a good sight picture. You gotta learn to shoot in the dark, when there's lots of noise and smoke and flashing lights and danger and adrenalin pumping through your veins. The last thing in the world that you'll be looking at is your front sight, so you'd better learn to point the gun where you're looking.

It's more than a little troubling to see each strip-mall studio claim that its form is the most street effective martial art in the world, when even their star students and teachers could probably be taken out in three seconds by the average college coed who knew any of the authentic CQB forms. Not in a match, of course, but in an alley at night.

And, like pluspinc, I cringe at the firearms instructors who preach the gospel of the Weaver stance and locking in on the front sight.

I guess I'm becoming a curmudgeon. I kind of like it.

Dwight

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Old February 27, 2000, 03:26 AM   #50
stdalire
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Join Date: September 1, 1999
Posts: 343
Dwight: I just get a few minutes off of doing some work and I have read now your post. You have demonstrated some of the simple effective strikes where there is no need of so much style to apply during a real fight but are effective.

For my observation, every human being has their own way in dealing a fight effectively. I noticed, that there are many school of martials with different school of thoughts as well as style. The same as to School of Guns.

All schools of Martial Arts and Gun Shooting talks the best and most effective way to deal a real situation. But not all advises are applicable in a particular situation.

You have mentioned Pluspinc, I visited his site, it is the same as other site that offers a certain kind of Self defense of the use of weapons with a particular fee. In my browsing of the web, the same thing, there are many oraganization offering the best way in pistol, rifle or any type of guns on how to handle it effectively. Some said, point shooting is better then sight shooting. Pluspinc, comments that of all the trainings and stances being currently taught in several schools of defense (martial arts or pistol shooting) are not applicable in real situation.

I think every body want to justify their own way of training and style that it is more effective than the other. Which I believe it is a part of advertising their own organization.

What is the purpose anyway of teaching martial arts and pistol shooting by many clubs or organization if not for profit. So, there is such kinds of discriminating nor saying things that shows that what they have is better than the other. In that way, it is a way of business competition. I read FrontSight and it offers good courses in gun handling as well as it presents all the best instructor attainment. I come into conclusion that everything is all kinds of promotion a particular organization. What I admire are the web sights that gives advises, lessons, courses, articles without any payment. For the interested party can learn from that.

I open the ref. you've made and I found out that I have already seen this one previously in the web also.

I've been reading a lot of martial arts style and I myself is an avid practitioner of several MA's. You have mentioned some best real MA's. Well, I am Filipino but I can say negative things on Escrima or Arnis also, although I have studied it. Why? because I know it's weakpoints also. But I admit, it is a kind of martial arts that is for real.

I can conlude that, any martial arts is effective if the person using it has the qualities to use in many respect. Even how good a particular martial arts if the person using it cannot execute it well or can't use it effectively, still he/she will be considered a lame duck. An opponent can also change the way we apply our style or techniques, as they are moving, thinking and striking also.

You mentioned about the Marines and you are an ex marine of yourself. Isn't it that the Marine Basic Class focus to train beyond Endurance, but being a a real combatant can only be acquire and tested already when you are deployed in the field. Because, on the training, only a lot of Jogging and obstacles to do. And shooting targets also and of course schooling. And those training will be just applied and tested when the trainee is on the field. That even how good the training if the trainee cannot apply in the real world, then training become ineffective.

Thanks in conversing with you Dwight on this forum. I still believe that there is no superior martial arts over another martial arts, but it is good to learn as much as we could if we have the privilige to do.



[This message has been edited by stdalire (edited February 27, 2000).]
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