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Old February 9, 2000, 05:35 AM   #1
stdalire
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I have titled my topic "There is no Martial Arts Style that Guarranty - it is a Very Effective in Self Defense".

I had posted this in relation of the topic of "Caeca Invidia Es" seeking advise of what kind of martial arts does a person should study.

Based on my readings of many contributors of writings in the world of Martial Arts in the Web with many MA schools they have studied from, many claims to have the best kind of martial arts that is better than this and that kind of MA's. I've been in many actual brawl like others but most techniques in any MA we have studied were not used.

I am also a fanatic practioner of martial arts coupled with some magical words or Oracion as we called in Latin. Up to now, I had memorized a lot of so called magic words which were handed to me. But the main player of self defense is common sense and of course any kind of training intended for self defense is good and it is up to the person applying it.

At age 13, I took up a formal schooling of Karate in Laoag City, Philippines where I took up my high school. In those years 1972-74, Bruce Lee Film are the most patronaged films in town. It almost has influenced of all Karate/Kungfu enthusiast or any kind of martial Arts. I found out that they have all in commons, that is punching, kicking, grabbing and grappling. Or most fight ends to grabbing one onother if each opponent cannot be knockdown by the 1st, 2nd or 3rd strike of any fighter.

When I went to Manila to take my Bachelors Degree, I studied Arnis (Stick Fighting, Judo, Kendo) under Presas Brothers, the brother of Remy Presas who is now famous under MA's circle in USA.

Now, if it comes to real encounter, it is not the kind or name of Martial Arts you have studied that determine that you are on the favor side of a fight. But it is your personality if you are really determined to fight and not afraid of any consequences during the fight and after the fight and of course good training and good body. Studying any kind of MA is okay and master the defensive and attacking techniques of that particular MA, for in real combat it will no take long to finish the fight.

In conclusion - I am ready to answer all the pros and cons that it may be commented on this thread for an exchange of knowledge in the Martial Arts world.

Thank you,



[This message has been edited by stdalire (edited February 09, 2000).]
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Old February 9, 2000, 08:08 AM   #2
SB
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For years now, Forrest Morgan, author of "Living the Martial Way" has warned that, "There is no good or bad martial arts, only good or bad martial artists."

Not to get too critical with analysis, I nontheless have to believe that the practioner is more important than the style itself.

[This message has been edited by SB (edited February 10, 2000).]
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Old February 9, 2000, 09:15 AM   #3
Skorzeny
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I certainly agree with the idea that there is NO such thing as "the ultimate" martial art.
The reason is that, like any other human endeavor, a particular martial art is an accumulation of responses to a series of historical, cultural and social circumstances.

Therefore, a given martial art is (was) suitable for a particular set of situations. For the same reason, some arts or systems designed in response to a particular set of situations may not be appropriate in context of DIFFERENT social and cultural settings.

This is why, I believe, many "traditional" martial arts do not make very effective self-defense systems in 21st Century United States. We do not live in 17th Century Guangdong, 18th Century Okinawa or 19th Century Tokyo. We do not have to fear the two swords-armed samurais and we do not have to fear an attack while sitting on a tatami.

Looking at it from another view, one cannot escape the conclusion then, that some arts are MORE appropriate for the social and cultural setting of where and when we live (21st Century America). Some arts such as BJJ and Muay Thai are, IMHO, much more effective in a real mano-a-mano fight than Shotokan or Tae Kwon Do. Mind you, neither is a "complete" or "ultimate" art useful for all situations.

There is also a misconception about how a martial art is to be used. Too many folks have the mistaken Hollywood notion of "get insulted, break out into the fists of fury, kick ass and preserve honor" hype.

Folks, any self-defense system of UNARMED nature is really the self-defense method of the last resort. If you can stand on your feet and have an avenue of escape, by all means, run away, flee, escape or call for help. Let the police do the "ass-kicking."
This is why I personally feel that grappling arts IN GENERAL make better "last-ditch" self-defense systems than striking arts, because when you are ambushed, tackled or forced onto the ground is the time when you will most need an UNARMED self-defense system.

Some criticize grappling arts as being unsuitable for self-defense because 1) they are unable to deal with multiple attackers and 2) they cannot cope very well against armed opponents. To those criticisms, I respond thusly: if some of the more "traditional" striking arts are not effective in a mano-a-mano fight, how effective would they be in multiple opponent scenarios? Clearly, to involve onself in a situation where many are against one is ultimately very foolish. Grappling will not get you out of such a situation, but neither will Tae Kwon Do, Wing Chun, boxing or any number of other systems.

As for dealing with an armed opponent, it is true that some arts may be marginally (emphasis on marginally) more effective than others, but unless one puts years and even decades into the training, it is again ultimately futile to engage an armed opponent while one is unarmed himself (hence the familiar saying, "it is a fool who shows up for a gunfight with a knife"). Unless one is willing to put years and decades into such a training, IMO, the time is better utilized by training in some effective unarmed vs. unarmed techniques.

Skorzeny

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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

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Old February 9, 2000, 09:54 AM   #4
Art Eatman
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All my life, I've just never liked fighting. That doesn't mean I never fought; I just didn't like it. My idea of close combat is an '06 at 500 yards. In my Social Insecurity years, I like the idea of fighting even less.

That said, it seems from all the comments I've read through several decades--as well as this forum--and comments from a teacher of an unarmed self-defense course I once took, that mindset has a lot to do with one's success.

That is, the stereotypical street fighter follows Vince Lombardi's advice: "Act like you've done it before". He's been there and knows the pain and (relatively) doesn't care. If you take a series of hard "for real" punches or strikes, and are emotionally startled, you're gonna lose, most likely. He's not going to stop until he's down or you're down.

If your inherent mindset is "hair, teeth and eyeballs", and you have skill, you may well win.

Is the above any sort of reasonable analysis? I'm not thinking of some Frat Rat who had a few beers too many and is feeling belligerent. I'm thinking of some guy who's grown up with violence as part of his life. It seems to me that avoidance or "beat feet" is general wisdom...

Regards, Art
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Old February 9, 2000, 10:42 AM   #5
pluspinc
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Over the years I ran into a lot of types that "knew" martial arts that violated the law. They all shared one thing in common. The went to jail.
We had a state Martial Arts Champion here killed by two drunken teenagers. He was not drunk. Many were puzzled by why he did not put up a defense. The two suspects when arrested were surprised at his background and as they said, "how easy" he was.
I've also worked with officers with strong backgrounds in various arts. In practice they seldom if ever used those skills and the matter turned into a wrestling match of sorts with no evidence of trained skills.
With much investigation on the subject, we have concluded a failure to perform ratio that is very high.
Handling a mouthy drunk is one thing, but with strong criminal INTENT of a criminal,and THEIR rules of engagement we have determined a failure to perform is based on mental chemistry that blocks memory and the ability to recall training which occurs in shootings as well. There is no amount of training that can change a genetic reponse to fright.
The rules of criminal engagement are not like in the movies and are not formal, organized or fair.
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Old February 9, 2000, 11:04 AM   #6
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Gotta agree with Art of some of his points.
IMHO, martial arts forms a good foundation for more learning. It shouldn't matter what you study.

From there you need to learn how to fight. And that involves mindset and aggresivness. It also requires knowledge. It is very helpful to understand human anatomy, and human nature. Learn to read the signs in your opponent, study the effects of alcohol and drugs, figure out if the guy's been in prison etc.(tats) Is he a grappler, a western style boxer, or a MA type. If he's hardcore he will be a streetfighter, which is what you need to do.

Ultimately, you want to hit his weak parts with your strong hard parts, and damage his body as quickly as possible. Absolutely explode into him and unleash a barrage of damaging blows that in combination will cause him great pain, disable him or simply knock him out.

It's amazing what kind of horrible damage bare hands and boots can do to the human body with a couple simple, unexpected blows. Fight won.
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Old February 9, 2000, 01:12 PM   #7
Gopher a 45
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I regards to pluspinc's comments, I would like to know if he knows the background of the MA who was killed (while preserving anonymity of course) because a lot of champions are very good...at competition, with rules and limited physical contact. It was one thing my instructor harped on is that you fight as you train (assuming you retain any training at all when the fight actually occurs). Therefore, those who have fought in tournaments "by the rules" may actually be at a disadvantage as compared to somone with no training who is simply trying to hurt someone no matter how they do it.

I have to agree with Skorzeny that BJJ is a good system to learn for practical self-defense, but like all things, it has its limitations. If you have ever watched any of the so-called "reality" fighting shows, you will see that, more often than not, the one who has good ground skills wins the match, especially since it is only one-on-one fighting. Once on the ground, devastating kicks and punches are of little or no use and it is very hard to deal a crippling blow that way as someone charges in, especially with limited room (though I have seen it done).

On multiple opponents, of course everything changes. Stay off the ground for as long as possible, lest your head be used for place kicking by one goblin while you are grappling with the second. By all means leave if possible. If it isn't, then do as much damage to one opponent as you can as quickly as you can so that at least you even the odds. There are no rules in a street fight.

I liked stick fighting, but it isn't practical to carry escrima sticks wherever one goes, although some makeshift ones can sometimes be found (mop handles, etc.)

Another thing to take into consideration is that you don't want to fight on an opponents terms, only yours (granted, you don't always have that luxury). For example, if he favors kicks, close the range rapidly and render the kicks less effective; don't stay at perfect kicking range while you try to plan a way in as you will only give them more opportunity to score on you. If he wants to go to the ground badly, there may be a reason. Also, you can defuse a lot of fights by simply expressing your willingness (though not necessarily eagerness) to see the fight through, as most thugs operate by intimidation and often will back down when they realize they might have to pay a price for their behavior. Give that person an out though! A lot of fights happen over ego, and if you can let the antagonist avoid a fight while saving face, by all means do so.

Finally, once you have determined that a fight will take place no matter what you do to deescalate it, you must act without hesitation and get the fight over with as quickly as possible. Letting things devolve into a shouting/pushing match will only serve to lengthen the time you are vulnerable. Of course the same applies to armed combat (back me up here someone!) in that once you've made the shoot/no shoot determination, you better be prepared to see it through. Hesitation will kill you, but most people just don't see it as so applicable to unarmed combat (but it is!), since the act of sending a bullet on its way is totally unretractable.

Armed vs. unarmed? That's a whole 'nother post and I've prattled on forever anyway. This is a good thread!

John

[This message has been edited by Gopher a 45 (edited February 09, 2000).]
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Old February 9, 2000, 02:00 PM   #8
Skorzeny
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Gopher/John:

Like you I really like Escrima (or Arnis, Kali, whatever it is called). Sure the stick work is not practical, but it does translate nicely into knife fighting. Of course, when you introduce a weapon into the equation, it's a whole new ball game.

My system is this (in order of priority or occurrence):

1. Run away if possible.
2. Rifle/Shotgun.
3. Handgun.
4. Knife (usually a small pocket knife).
5. Kicking and punching (Muay Thai).
6. Elbows and Knees (Muay Thai).
7. Chokes, armbars, leglocks (BJJ and Shooto) in combination with strikes on the ground if possible.
8. God.

By the way, also like you, I recognize the limitations of grappling arts. But let me ask you this: do you really think that other arts and systems are any more useful than BJJ (with its throws and takedowns) in dealing with multiple opponents?

Skorzeny

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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

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Old February 9, 2000, 02:05 PM   #9
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Gopher your.45, You make a good point, about not playing by your opponent's rules. Punch a wrestler's lights out, kick a boxer into submission or wrestle a kicker to the ground-kinda like "rock scissors paper" huh. Each one has it's strengths and weaknesses. Back when I was in HS, we had a lot of ethnic backgrounds attending. Black, white, hispanic and lot's of Cambodian, Viet and Laotian refugees. Well, fights would breakout, and they were interesting. Golden glove hispanic boxer friend of mine got his ass beat by a 'bode using MA. Same 'bode got his ass whupped later by a football player who went to ground with him quickly. This was all kid-stuff but shows an example.

Lastly, what you said about committing yourself to follow through. Very important.Also, don't underestimate you ability to psych the other guy out-esp. if dealing with a drunk with "beer muscles" I watched a friend (small guy, 5'8", 135 lbs)absolutly freak out a big drunk guy who pulled a 6" sheathknife out during an altercation. My friend pulled out a cheap straight razor. The guy chilled real fast. My buddy was terrified, but pulled it off real cool. That would be a grand bluff my friends!
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Old February 9, 2000, 03:38 PM   #10
Gopher a 45
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Skorzeny (Otto??),

8. God. How true!

Kali does translate very well into knife fighting, which is in fact where it originated, from what I understand. The Filipinos are some of the most accomplished knife fighters anywhere. Besides, stick work teaches you a lot about movement and leverage that work for you in other areas of MA as well.

I don't think any other arts are more or less useful than BJJ in terms of multiple opponents. However, BJJ comes into its own only on the ground, which is a disadvatage when faced with more than one person. Unless, you can throw a person without yourself going to the ground, in which case you've bought yourself some time to deal with goblin B. When combined with some stand-up skills BJJ is much more effective. However, given the choice between learning BJJ and a stand-up art, I would choose BJJ every time. Statistically, most fights end up on the ground anyway. (I'm talking about street-type fights which last more than a few seconds) So why not play the odds? Besides, I found it easier to learn grappling first then work on striking, though some may disagree. Ideally, you should be comfortable at all ranges of combat (I'm not) so as to be able to not "have to" depend on a fight occurring at your favorite range. That being said, I favor BJJ and related styles more because, paradoxically, proximity is security to you the grappler (in the absence of an edged weapon of course) because you can control his arms and legs, "weapons" if you will, by virtue of being in contact with them, whereas at punching kicking range, you don't have control of them (I never saw much catching the person's fist or their kick in midair unless the receiver was accomplished at trapping). In practice, I found that the range went from kicking to boxing-trapping (ranges 5 and 6) to grappling VERY quickly, unless both people were willing to keep the match at that range, so I found that ground skills were the best bet overall, though one shouldn't neglect standup. Strikes on the ground are always good. They don't even have to be hard. What I found is that a top position against someone who doesn't know better is good because any strike will get them to turn away, setting up an easy choke. The guard is an excellent defensive position (from which you can attack somewhat), but I wouldn't use it in a fight unless I had no other choice.

WETSU,

Psychology is the essence of all conflict (look at Skorzeny's sig!). All you have to do is make the aggressor see absolutely clearly that the cost of their actions may very well exceed the potential benefits, which is illustrated by your friend's story with the razor. Why do ya think Hitler never invaded Switzerland?

John

P.S. and someone who could grapple would have broken the football player eventually. It just points to the fact that you can't always expect the fight to occur at the range you like. Not much room to kick on the ground, so be ready!
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Old February 9, 2000, 05:26 PM   #11
Skorzeny
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Gopher/John:

Man, I agree with you fully. If I had to choose one art/system, it would be either BJJ or Shooto.

I also agree that kicking/punching/trapping ranges tend to be crossed quickly in a real fight. People tend to crash through those rather quickly.

You know what was really funny? I saw an altercation on TV between a anti-Castro guy and a Cuban baseball ref/umpire on a baseball field somewhere. The Cuban charged the impromptu demonstrator. Both took a couple of swings at each other, but the Cuban tackled the demonstrator in a short order. The anti-Castro guy headlocked him (looked like the guillotine choke!) and then the Cuban took him down, before others broke them up. For a moment there, it looked like a NHB match!

It was funny for me to see some guys (who, no doubt, have absolutely no NHB training) instinctively use techniques that resembled BJJ techniques.

BTW: Where do you train in BJJ?

Skorzeny

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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

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Old February 9, 2000, 07:59 PM   #12
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Some things I believe:

1. All martial arts are effective.

2. None are "ideal" all of the time.

3. You must be able to adapt- quikly!

4. Its the man, not the martial art.

5. Its not the size of the man in the fight, its the size of the fight in the man.

6. You will fight the way that you train.

7. You should be well conditioned.

8. Your favorite move will not work most of the time.

9. The basics work most of the time.

10. Kata is great.

11. Kata is not enough.

12. Too many people believe they will fight like a twenty year master.

13. Too many people learn the hard way that they will not.

There are more, but I'll spare you... :-)

Erik
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Old February 10, 2000, 05:00 AM   #13
stdalire
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Greetings to All:

What a nice input from MA's of different style. As I have said, and what the rest said, all martial arts are good and it depends on the person how he was trained and how he execute the needed techniques to subdue his opponent.

No one should discount the effectiveness of striking, nor grabbing or grappling as all these techniques has particular usage. They have strong points and weaknesses also.

Another thing, is the person is really a man who is determined to fight to the finish either to stop, cripple or kill the other. So it all depends.

As others said, it would be impractical to fight a person having a knife with the barehand, if there are choices to use as an aid for self defense.

For instance, if someone has a knife and I have a stick, I will use my stick as an extension of my hand, and for me it is easier to defend myself nor cripple the attacker if I have a stick to use. But again, if you are a professional living in a city, you will not be carrying a stick with you always. May be a stick which is modified to be decently carried but strong enough when elongated (if folded type).

Again, there are scenarios where we are better of to disarm an attacker wielding a knife when we are barehand, rather than disarming a knife wielder whilst we have a knife also. In some situation we need to face a person having a knife to defend ourselves.

As to fight on the ground, for my own analysis, you cannot fight with multiple opponent say 2 up to 4 people, for if you just grab one guy then the rest will storm you with punches and kicks.

Tournaments and street fight is very much different, because you only expect to be striked and you strike too with rules. In street fight we all know that we face determined killers or fighters that is after our money, our life, or just their happiness to molest someone.

Henceforth, not all situation a particular martial arts style is effective or practical to use.

What I have seen in my studies of martial arts. All kinds of it does a role in a fight.
For instance, on the moment an opponent is about to srike one another, after 2, 3, punches or kicks being delivered perhaps and none was knockdown, they will surely grab each other. If I am being grab, I see the usefulness of Judo, like hip-throw, or shoulder-throw if I want to be released by the locked of my opponent. If still I can't get out of my opponent grip, I can use my elbow job and knee kick or using my fingers, phoenix knuckle strike to either of the head, or bonny parts of the body. If stil cannot get out, I will side step left or right and bend forward and hook his feet with my left or right feet and grab one of his feet with abrupt motion to raise up, that way we will both fell down at our back.

I've been studying how really martial arts can help me to be always on the favor side of an unexpected mano mano or fight. [As many have said, we don't want trouble but we only showing if martial arts really give us an edge to a real situation.] As I have analyze, it is all up to the person if he has good foundation of his basic of blocks and strikes and most of it, he is determined to hit and be hit during the fight.

I have seen many killers with knife, without any MA's but these guys are playing dirty tricks and the victim is unaware, but if only the victims knows first or aware of the attacker intention then perhaps these acclaimed killers without any knowledge in MA's might not have been successful with their evil intent. That is why I am the guy who never believe that ther eis a person that is tought. The body is soft and penetrable and any one can be able to strike it if he is determined. In ordinary brawl without knife or weapon, for sure the MA's will prevail. But if both has learning in MA's for sure there is a draw or one will be crippled whoever got the chance to land his strikes effectively to his opponent. That is why I said, there is no such thing as a superior martial arts, they are all good when the person using it has good training to it, and has a blood running in his vein that he has no hesitant to face any opponent no matter what and who he is. By the way, sizes, big muscles, or well built person plays a big role in a fight but not a guarranty again that he will win a fight.

I am just 5'4", so what do you expect me to do with a big opponent, I will strike him to the knees or a lower portion of his body and if I am being grabbed I use Judo and Hapkido.

Thank you again with your comments, I have read them word for word.

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Old February 10, 2000, 05:11 AM   #14
pluspinc
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The "champion" killed here was very well "trained" but based on what was said about him in some newspaper reports he was not what you would call "street smart" coming from a rather upscale background and he was in bad ass territory.
>>>>>>>
As for the comments we "resort to our training" that sounds good, but doesn't show up in the real world when it is life and death for a wide variety of reasons such as the reason a champion swimmer can drown, and top pilots crash from their own failure to perform.
Failure to perform when faced with reality is such a problem we find 88% of cops killed never touch their guns when they have the chance to. That is why we tackled the "you resort to your training." It works only when you are able to process that information and crooks just don't let us do that and the result of a sudden attack blows us into a state of fright where we are so limited on thought process and taken over by genetics we often fail to think "fast" enough or process enough information.
I was surprised when I started to get a lot of martial arts types in our handgun class. They were coming to get information on fright and genetics we have uncovered that explain much of our inability to defend ourselves when faced with reality.
The level of failed performance can vary between each of us and vary based on many factors, but the consistant thread is that many WELL trained people fail to resond to even low fear hazards. More work needs to be done on this. That is why we are so strong on AVOIDANCE to stop the process of moving into fright where we can grid lock from genetics to memory blocking chemicals. It isn't what we want to hear, but it sure is on the money we are finding.
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Old February 10, 2000, 05:40 AM   #15
stdalire
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A short note to remember: We learned martial arts to have a better position when there are unexpected encounter from an agressor. So, I consider it as a body conditioning only to react on dangers perceived by our senses.

We buy, licensed or unlicensed guns for the purpose that we have a last resort to use when all avenues to understand, retreat and being patient has been all exhausted.

I have not think other purposes of a martial arts or owning a gun if not for self defense, secondly perhaps for competition, collections and hunting. If for the latter three purpose we don't need a CCW. Thus, a person who study MA's and carries a gun has always in mind of depending on these two weapon for survival between life and death caused by a human being.

The same to me, the more martial arts I am interested into to study in my early 20's and 30's, the more I see the impracticality of many techniques being taught as effective defense in a brawl. Experienced counts a lot also in shaping you if how you react in a real scenario, but I don't mean also we have to go into fight, but in our existence of different yrs in our life it helps. Even that supposedly actual encounter has consumated or not but how does a person reacted in those moments that he is in that plane of situation.

New learner of martial arts thinks that when they are already black belt or higher rank they have already the capability to subdue an opponent, but for me, it is still the beginning to learn more and the hundreds of techniques being studied perhaps only 2 or 3 is being applied in a real situation. So, if you are being hold by any BG or goblin as others describe, react fast by just hitting or striking any parts of his body and whatever you have learned in your MA's will just come out simultaneously as you are trained already for that and it became a habit. It is an automatic reflexes, there is no more, Okinawan, Shotokan, BJJ, TKD, Judo or any style that you think of to use.
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Old February 10, 2000, 08:09 AM   #16
fubsy
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I would like to put forth that the one thing everyone ought to consider here is the mindset....I mean an absolute commitment, you had better make that opponent realize that your ready to rock and want to go...make him realize that to tumble with you is for real. And if he's already marked you as his target, it wont matter, bluffing aint gonna work. I cant remember were it came from but do you guys recall were instructors tell ya that if you have the time mark a point on the opponent and shoot for that spot.....You should try if time allows to spot areas you will attack---thats one of the areas that training comes in, it should help you evaluate distance etc...its done almost in milliseconds...You have to aware of tachphyscia(sp), Ive had occasion to realize that an altercation might be necessary so I had the time to either leave or prepare if leaving was not an optionn, Ive had to stop myself from beoming so focused that I excluded the individuals friends and my surroundings, so be aware of that.
I think that for the most part we grow a nation of wimps, the crimminal or violent person has a very different outlook on violence and when joe lawabiding is first confronted with it, it can be very hard to make that initial adjustment quickly and its necessary. It can get your butt beaten, you have to no matter what be mean, viscious, use every trick, device, weapon, you can muster. And realize with all of that there are no gurantee's, you can still lose.
As far as not fighting the way you trained.....thats area so ripe for different variables.
first, if you train for sport, you fight like its a sport.
If your not automatically reacting with some training youve learned---you havent trained enuf.....thats one of the reason's that Karate takes so long to learn properly. You might be taught multiple kata's were these moves are located. But how many have taken one and just broke it down and worked just one for a significant period of time? I dont mean 8 hours I mean months. I believe the tiime I heard was that it takes 5k repetitions to know something.....
How many of you have continued to train with broken bones, cracked ribs, on days you were exhausted, no sleep.......that bum isnt gonna attack you when its your advantage, so your already behind the 8-ball. To be a fighter takes commitment, not just I go to class three times a week stuff, hours at home, time in the gym, time on the track....prepare yourself physcially. Most people of the type were talking about that I know of, work out in the gym, they are strong and they dont care if they hurt you, they want to controll you and pain is a way to do it. All those moves are great, if your in condition to use them and strong enuf to apply them. How many of you dress to fight? How many have ever worked out in street clothes? Why not, that guy isnt coming into your dojo necessarily...all those high kicks are useless in jeans....or restrictive clothing or those cute spins in shoes that grip the ground......
Imo its just like shooting, we dont train enuf, hard enuf, long enuf and properly so its easy to say that they didnt resort to training......
conditioning is something we shouldnt overlook, fatigue makes cowards...if you let it....we are not mentally tuff enuf.
..jmo's....look we have "masters", "experts" who because they have been doing something for decades they react the way they know how, they have trained for years......
You want something quick and effective down and dirty,,,ok, here it is...learn boxing, get out there and learn to box....and you'll still lose from time to time but its a short learning curve---although it too can take considerable time to master, but your only concern is throwing the hands and moving, no trapping, pressure points, jointlocks, wrestling,,,etc....kicks...etc...
It just amazes me that people train 3-5 hours a week and think they are really bad, news flash....most boxers I know train everyday, 3-4 hours a day,well on sundays the guys I know generally just do roadwork....lol......jmo....fubsy.
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Old February 10, 2000, 09:13 AM   #17
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Gopher/John
I gotta think that not attacking Switzerland was one of the only smart things that crazy nazi Hitler did during WWII. I guess the idea of facing a bunch of well-trained, individual riflemen hanging from every cliff did'nt sound too good.
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Old February 10, 2000, 10:43 AM   #18
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Wetsu:

I am digressing here, but what possible motive did Hitler have to invade Switzerland?

Hitler wasn't just "mad." He was at times a coldly calculating realist. What was there to be gained by occupying Switzerland? Very little if at all. In fact, there was a great deal to lose even if such an invasion were successful since the Swiss were a nice conduit of smuggled goods and semi-legitimate financial services.

While the Swiss have a well deserved reputation for courage in defending their homes. I really think that fact had very little to do with why Nazi Germany did not invade Switzerland.

Skorzeny

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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

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Old February 10, 2000, 10:53 AM   #19
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Fubsy:

Boxing is all fine and dandy, but would you make that same recommendation for a 110lbs. woman?

Boxing requires strength, speed, endurance and technique. I doubt very much that a small, "weak" woman who trains in boxing a couple of times a week will be able to defend herself against anyone but the weak.

I personally train in Muay Thai, BJJ and Shooto with professionals (both Muay Thai and NHB), but then again I also lift weights during day time, do Ashtanga Yoga and am a glut for sado-masochistic punishment at the gym. I am also 6'1" and weigh 175lbs of very little fat. I doubt very much that the bulk of the population would be interested in the kind of training you and I are willing to undergo.

So, for those who are not "110%" dedciated, what is really needed is a "last ditch" self-defense system that relies on something other than strength, speed and stamina. What is needed is a system based on leverage and technique.

I think that Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu or Shooto fits that perfectly. Vale Tudo classes are conducted in street clothes (well, shorts and T-shirt) and are meant for self-defense and NHB.

Boxing is a great system that complements many other arts/systems, but it is one-dimensional. I have seen enough well-trained boxers who got taken down and beaten senselessly by those even minimally trained in grappling to know that it is pretty ineffective BY ITSELF in a real fight.

Next time you see boxing, count the number of times boxers clinch. Every one of those times, a grappler can take the boxer down and beat him senseless or break bones and joints.

Skorzeny

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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

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Old February 10, 2000, 12:24 PM   #20
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skorzeny,

"Boxing is all fine and dandy, but would you make that same recommendation for a 110lbs. woman?"
....No i would not, and likewise I have seen very few women blk belts of 3rd and 4th degree vintage who could stop a determined attacker consistently either especially if the weight and size advantage is extremely disproporional---you cant remove that from the equation any more than you could the occasional success that one built that way might have...they dont have the strength necessarily any more than a 110lb male would although he would be stronger than them and
perhaps better able. for most people what I said I think still applies. I firmly believe that most people if that would just practice straight forward simple techniques such as boxing provides they would be better off.
""boxing requires strength, speed, endurance and technique. I doubt very much that a small, "weak" woman who trains in boxing a couple of times a week will be able to defend herself against anyone but the weak."
......I should disagree with this? I know no one who trains in many disciplines that having the same criteria would be successful either and that is my point. I believe in weapons of all types and that includes what ever you can come up with on the spur of the moment---im not talking point competitions or the ufc competitions....im talking about your average person trying to maintain a reasonable level of skill necessary to fight with some confidence if necessary. If their physcial handicaps are such that they are most likely to be incapable of handling a physcial attack, they should carry weapons. I worked out with a fellow who is just the weight and small in stature of what we're talking about......this guy has just received his blk belt in the last year...the whole time I would be out their sparring with this guy i never once got tagged hard--he's hell on wheels in point fighting. and he'd go if it was serious but the guy is handicapped by his build, very light in weight small in stature---not much muscle, I would have liked to have seen him train up to some strength instead of all the point fighting....

"I personally train in Muay Thai, BJJ and Shooto with professionals (both Muay Thai and NHB), but then again I also lift weights during day time, do Ashtanga Yoga and am a glut for sado-masochistic punishment at the gym. I am also 6'1" and weigh 175lbs of very little fat. I doubt very much that the bulk of the population would be interested in the kind of training you and I are willing to undergo.""
....No dont include me in that hard work...I had to give it up do to injuries and age..lol...in all seriousness strength can not and should not be overlooked.

""So, for those who are not "110%" dedciated, what is really needed is a "last ditch" self-defense system that relies on something other than strength, speed and stamina. What is needed is a system based on leverage and technique."
...I have a mild disagreement here, I dont believe that is correct. if a person dosent have strength the last thing they want to do is go to the ground with someone. Ive been there too many times and its too easy to smother their moves. Should they no some of it--sure, i would rather they keep them at a distance with footwork and split as soon as possible not clenching unless they have no choice.....using your example a 110 women against a 220 male or slightly smaller? avoid and get out of the area, or carrry a weapon and get out of the area.

""I think that Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu or Shooto fits that perfectly. Vale Tudo classes are conducted in street clothes (well, shorts and T-shirt) and are meant for self-defense and NHB."
...I know its become wildly popular since the ufc's contest's were going on and thats fine, Ive nothing against them, I just question the validity of a 110lb person grappling against a much larger person--they have to know it cause it might get forced on them, but not the first thing they do.

""Boxing is a great system that complements many other arts/systems, but it is one-dimensional. I have seen enough well-trained boxers who got taken down and beaten senselessly by those even minimally trained in grappling to know that it is pretty ineffective BY ITSELF in a real fight.""
....Ive no doubt its happened, I also no its happened the other way too...so what does that leave us...opinions....Ive no problem with the "complete warrior" concept of using ground work, feet hands, jointlocks armbarms takedowns, etc etc,fighting at various distances...including weaponless and weapons use.
The reality for me is this, most folks are not going to encounter joe bjj, or ken shoote fighter, they most likely will be well served with a style of fighting that they can learn reasonablly quick and retain some proficency in without the 3 or 4 hour six days a week training session. Besides when your in the ring and thats dude is pounding on you, its a lot like in the street, its not like some dojo's, your gonna get reasonably good training. but thats my opinion.

""Next time you see boxing, count the number of times boxers clinch. Every one of those times, a grappler can take the boxer down and beat him senseless or break bones and joints.""
......Now this is what i kinda am getting around too, ive never seen a boxer in the street..not the ring...need to resort to clenching. Not once. He is not fighting necessarily a highly skilled person.

Skorzeny, dont misunderstand me here I do appreciate your perspective, take muythai knees, elbows, feet, fist, forearms, whatever else you can hit with...good stuff..how many folks are really gonna train all that in to their workouts at such a rate as to become proficient enuf to use it? I think boxing simplifies it and initially builds enuf confidence to help out,
punching is about as basic as it gets.
.........fubsy.

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Old February 10, 2000, 12:32 PM   #21
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Skorzeny,
You are right, I don't think Hitler really wanted to invade Switzerland either. Maybe he didn't need the chocolate, and German clocks seem to work just as well as Swiss ones.
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Old February 10, 2000, 02:05 PM   #22
Erik
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Pluspinc holds that you cannot train certain traits/reactions out of one'sself or others.

Others believe that it is all training.

Somewhere in the middle lies the truth, burried in the grey area of the debate.

That said, train, train, train... AND have the proper mindset <--- Now that's the trick most haven't learned.

Erik
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Old February 10, 2000, 05:10 PM   #23
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Genetics are a key player we are finding out more so each day. The old thought, "some have it and some don't" is right on the money. I knew a fellow who got the highest grade point averate in University of Minnesota law chool in history. He could NOT however apply what he learned and never did pass the state bar exam.
Genetics will be our deciding factor in a real life and death encounter, much more so than training, even if the "skill" is to flee.
Wish I had more room to explain it, but the science is now there of genetic behavior vs environmentally learned behavior. Predispositional impact on behavior is now valid in English courts. It is a form of "the devil made me do it." In our case the devil is our ancestors before us.
As for mind set, when frightend that is stripped from us and brings forth a genetic pre-programmed response for us. When in a state of fright our mind won't care about laws, rules, morals or liability. It WILL do whatever it takes to survive.
That is one reason you see so many bites in fights. A neanderthal genetic response.
With the science now available to us we will have to start to include making ourselves aware of this state of mind that can cause some serious problems. The mind doesn't like organized formal complex things when it thinks it is in danger.
Of all the martial arts the one I have seen used that worked was indeed JUDO. It isn't as fancy or trendy, but at a prison near where I was a cop an oriental corrections officer was targeted in a riot. Before he was beaten half to death he got five of them and put each into the hospital down the hall from where they put him. This included tossing a couple OVER a railing allowing them to fall two tiers. They out weighed him by 100 pounds.
To this day nobody will screw with him.
Interesting thread and I hope we all print a few responses out and think them over. Lots of good seeds in this mess. :-)
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Old February 10, 2000, 06:37 PM   #24
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Eric, I think there is truth in that statement, but is not a new concept. Any athlete that excells in physcial environment most likely has the genetics required, combined with training. Does that mean you cant take a person of not quite the same genetics and train them to a point were they are better than they would have been with out practice? Pavlov trained what, mice to react to stimiulus, isnt that what were talking about as well? It too is well documented. Now does that mean all people handle stress well? I certainley dont believe its all training either, but I do think you can become better through training. It would seem that until a person loses his rationality he's capable of utilizing his skills, but once he panics his ability suffers.sorta like "buck fever" at hunting season? The reason I say it is not new is the old saw about....not panicing and there was a very famous martial artist who developed an entire style around the concept of flight and fight, he felt that it was better not to have trained in extensive pre programmed moves, because everyone reacts differently. Of course that was after he had spent many years studying with yip man, and a life time of daily practice....yep thats right practice even going to the point of developing his own practice equipment......interesting thread but we are talking about old concepts that are general knowledge....fubsy.
""Pluspinc holds that you cannot train certain traits/reactions out of one'sself or others.
Others believe that it is all training.

Somewhere in the middle lies the truth, burried in the grey area of the debate.""

That said, train, train, train... AND have the proper mindset <--- Now that's the trick most haven't learned.

Erik
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Old February 10, 2000, 06:54 PM   #25
fubsy
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plusp,
""Genetics will be our deciding factor in a real life and death encounter, much more so than training, even if the "skill" is to flee.""
......are we talking about controlling panic? What about people that jump out of airplanes?---now that would panic me, but dont they get trained in such a way as to enforce that they can safely do this? Is this close to what you mean?
""Wish I had more room to explain it, but the science is now there of genetic behavior vs environmentally learned behavior. Predispositional impact on behavior is now valid in English courts. It is a form of "the devil made me do it." In our case the devil is our ancestors before us."""
......Ok, Ive got to throw this wrench in, what if Im genetically attracted to only blonde women, and Im a rapist----surely that couldnt be used as a defense.
""As for mind set, when frightend that is stripped from us and brings forth a genetic pre-programmed response for us. When in a state of fright our mind won't care about laws, rules, morals or liability. It WILL do whatever it takes to survive.""
....panic again?
""That is one reason you see so many bites in fights. A neanderthal genetic response.""
....I wasnt aware that they had conclusively linked us to neanderthals, but I have bitten not out of fear but that was the only opening i had,,,I was about 7.
""With the science now available to us we will have to start to include making ourselves aware of this state of mind that can cause some serious problems. The mind doesn't like organized formal complex things when it thinks it is in danger.
Of all the martial arts the one I have seen used that worked was indeed JUDO. It isn't as fancy or trendy, but at a prison near where I was a cop an oriental corrections officer was targeted in a riot. Before he was beaten half to death he got five of them and put each into the hospital down the hall from where they put him. This included tossing a couple OVER a railing allowing them to fall two tiers. They out weighed him by 100 pounds.
To this day nobody will screw with him.""
........Good for him, this could be interesting here, was he raised around a culture of judo or marital arts? Did he practice and how long had he been practicing? What was his mindset prior to the incident, had he already made up his mind to fight no matter what?......fubsy.........your right good thread.
Interesting thread and I hope we all print a few responses out and think them over. Lots of good seeds in this mess. :-)
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