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Old April 20, 2011, 11:58 PM   #1
Bfry012
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I need help

I am trying to decide on one of these two hand guns. I know they are 2 totally different types of guns. Sig sp2022 or Rock Island Tactical 1911. I have a limited budget. I will shoot this at a range mostly and will be in the night stand the remainder of the time. The sig comes with 2 mags 2 sets of grips and a sig red laser sight mounted under barrel for $450 with a black finish. The 1911 will include 1 mag and will have a nickel finish for $500. This will be my first hand gun I have no experience with a hand gun however am shotgun/rifle shooter. Thanks for any input.
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Old April 21, 2011, 12:22 AM   #2
Dabull
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I have both. I would choose the Sig over RIA for the range and nightstand use combo. Assuming your RIA is a .45, the Sig in 9mm will be cheaper at the range and give you a higher capacity for home defense. I also prefer to have a Sig chambered with the hammer down vs. a 1911 cocked and locked.
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Old April 21, 2011, 12:23 AM   #3
Mosin44az
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Well, here goes:

Is the SIG 9mm? That's a cheaper caliber to shoot, easier to get in more practice, but it's still considered effective for defense. Also less recoil than .45 defense loads, so easier to practice and less intimidating, you should get better quicker.

Does the SIG have a light rail, for attaching a tactical light? If so, that's a big advantage for a night stand gun in my book.

Does the SIG have a DA first trigger? As I recall, it would. If so, can you easily reach the trigger face with the pad of your trigger finger, without stretching, and does it seem that you can pull the trigger smoothly and easily, without the gun jerking off-target to the right? Can you check this out at a range to be sure, by renting the SIG or a gun with a similar pull? If your hands are smaller like mine, a DA trigger is much harder to shoot accurately with, and that's a crucial factor.
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Old April 21, 2011, 01:32 AM   #4
Bfry012
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The Sig is 9mm with DA trigger, the RIA is a 45 however could get it in a 9mm but only $50 cheaper and not nickel finish. I am going to the range on Friday but they do not rent Sig's. What gun do you think would be comparable. I'm going to www.bluegrassrange.com if you have time do you think you could check their rentals to see what I should rent. If you don't have time I completely understand. Both responses have already been helpful so thank you!
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Old April 21, 2011, 01:50 AM   #5
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Sigs tend to be reconized more for thier quality than anything else, RIA makes cheap clones of 1911's. I've heard they're solid but 1911's are a finiky because there are some many different tolerances they are built to now and so many different materials and manufacturing processes available now that i doubt the great M.Browning would be to happy. Off point , they are both very different weapons, the 1911 is going to kick harder thats one, more maintance required than the 2022 which is polymer . The 2022 can be shot just like the 1911 in single action as well and the trigger pull shouldnt be horrible around 5lbs , more less the same as a low end 1911. Double action is nice , and they have a decocker as well if you decide you want to drop the hammer in single action with out pulling on the slide or having to worry about a safety like on a 1911. I would go sig, they are wounderful. I would recomend hold both guns , what ever feels better in your hands. Glocks fit me well, and i like them them. I cant get used to the Px9's to same my life or the m&p's oddly . Feel comfortable, also 9'mm cheaper which means more practice and you get a laser if i remeber correctly from your post!!
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Old April 21, 2011, 07:12 AM   #6
Dabull
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In my limited experience with HKs, I found them to be pretty comparable triggers to Sigs. Try renting an HK. Watch those around you...a fellow shooter might have a Sig with them.
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Old April 21, 2011, 08:07 AM   #7
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I have not shot either of the guns you mentioned, but going on caliber alone I would go with the Sig. A 9mm means cheaper ammo which means more practice which means you will get more proficient with it than the 1911. Combine that with the higher capacity and double action capability and it will make a better nightstand gun. But thats just my opinion.
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Old April 21, 2011, 01:10 PM   #8
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I just picked this up an hour a go.




It came with a laser, that caught me by surprise, I wasn't expecting one.
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Old April 21, 2011, 02:18 PM   #9
BigJimP
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Well - lets go over the specs on the Sig 2022 first ... its available in either a 9mm or .40S&W - its a poly frame / 29 oz gun ...and it has the DA/SA Sig trigger in it. Its double action only on the first round ( 10 lb trigger pull ) then on each subsequent round its Single Action ( at 4.4 lbs ) ... Full msrp with night sights is $ 566 ( this is on the Sig web site by the way ) ....

The Sig 2022 is a good gun ( if it fits your hand ) ...and in 9mm its way less expensive to shoot that anything in a .45 acp ... The RI 1911 - is a pretty low end 1911 ( as 1911's go ) and many of them have pretty bad triggers / and questionable mechanical components in them ...

A RI 1911 in 9mm ...might be worse than in a .45 acp ....a 1911 in a 9mm is a great gun ...but it requires some finess to make it run 100% ..and I don't know that RI is up to that challenge. Like you said the RI is around $ 500 ...and the prices on many 1911's - get up around $ 1,000 very quickly - and can easily go up to $ 3,000 ... I'm not picking on the RI because of price / but you have to know intuitively - that they have to be using cheaper components / or paying people less to assemble and fit them - than some of the mfg's that are charging more .../ and just be aware of what you're buying.

A well made 1911 - because the trigger moves back and forth in the frame vs a hinged trigger like on the Sig - will always be a superior trigger - if its fit and tuned right.

So what I'm trying to say here -- is you've trying to make an apples to oranges comparison here ....they're both guns ...but beyond that ...they're very different weapons.

In this budget range of around $500 ...I would go with the Sig -- hands down. Shoot a bunch of 1911's in 9mm and in .45 acp --- when you can --- and start identifying what makes them different - options, feel of the triggers, etc ...and get a 1911 down the road.... in the lower price end - Springfield, Colt and S&W are all making some decent 1911's ..../ any of them much better than anything RI puts out ....in my opinion.
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Old April 21, 2011, 02:21 PM   #10
Single Six
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I'd pick the other one. I [and more recently, another officer on my dept.] have had 2 different Sig P220s break their trigger return springs while in use on the range. When this happens, the guns absolutely will not fire. The "to hell and back reliability" that Sig advertises has been proven [to us, anyway] to be untrue.
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Old April 21, 2011, 03:04 PM   #11
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Good comments. I have a Sig P226 in 9mm. My hand are small-medium. The first shot the pistol must be turned slightly to the rt.( I'm rt. handed). You can manually cock the hammer if necessary. It hasn't really been a problem.

I've had it ( used ) for a few years, and it has been extremely reliable and accurate. I'm very happy with it. I would say get the Sig, but that is your decision. With good HP ammo it's a good stopper if you put the bullet in the right place. You'll get more practice with the cheaper ammo. Less recoil so you will get to be a better shot. The light will let you get some good feedback on dry fire practice.

Good Luck with your decision, Eagle
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Old April 21, 2011, 03:19 PM   #12
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First I would encourage you to stay with a 9mm; unless you are reloading yourself it's much cheaper to shoot at the range, less recoil and like other calibers there is a wide variety of self defense ammo to choose from. With that said I have heard many good things about Sigs, however, I do not own one so I can't really comment too much about them. I do own a RIA 1911 9mm Tactical and love it. It shot great right out of the box and has not skipped a beat once. As already mentioned these are 2 different types of guns; the Sig is more of a tactical type of weapon with a longer / heavier trigger pull where as the RIA being a 1911 will have a shorter / lighter trigger pull. I have done a trigger job on my RIA and it is 4-5lbs and very crisp, after shooting a 1911 with a good trigger it spoils you quickly. I would like to throw one more in the mix for you to consider; CZ 75B. This pistol can be bought new for the budget you are wanting to spend and is a great 9mm, perhaps the best. If you want to compare 2 pistols the Sig and CZ would be a better comparison since they are both similar in type. Good luck.
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Old April 21, 2011, 05:53 PM   #13
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I'm not saying to discount what single6 is saying ...about the two guns in his dept that failed ...but in my experience, the springs and everything else in a Sig ....trigger bar spring included ....are well built parts ...and I've never seen one fail.

I have five Sigs in my gun collection - ( a pair of 226's one in 9mm and one in .40S&W / a pair of 239's one in 9mm and one in .40S&W ) and a Sig X-Five in .40S&W ...and they all have many thousands of rounds thru them ...and I've never had a trigger bar spring fail ...or any other spring in them fail / or had anyone I know that shoots Sigs as a primary gun - have one fail. I don't shoot them as primary guns - my primary guns are all 1911's .../but the Sigs all get a workout from my grandkids and their buddies especially.

My local range rents a lot of different guns - and I know they say the Sig rental guns ( 220's, 226's, 229's, 239's etc ) all seem to hold up real well - and they don't clean them often - or fuss too much with the rental guns...

and any gun can fail / made by anyone ...at any time ...its just a mechanical beast ...but if I wanted to carry any of my Sig's ...reliability would be the last thing that would concern me. MY personal philosophy is that any gun should be stripped to a bare frame at least once a year - if its been fired at all ....just to do some preventative maintenance on it / check for worn parts. Now its very hard to tell if a spring is wearing ...they just break / but most gun mfg's have a recommened replacement frequency on springs in their guns ...and I don't recall the trigger bar spring being recommended for replacement vs maybe at 250,000 rds you should send it to a "Sig Armorer" to have the gun checked ...or if it starts mis-behaving...
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Old April 21, 2011, 06:02 PM   #14
BigJimP
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Here is the suggestion from Sig - on replacing springs in their guns ....


The following is SIG SAUER's current parts replacement schedule (numbers of rounds), with some comments of my own:

Barrel: If the pistol exhibits keyholing or unacceptable accuracy.
Decocking lever spring: 10,000
Extractor: 20,000
Extractor spring: 20,000
Firing pin: 20,000
Firing pin spring: 20,000
Magazine spring: When magazine fails to lock the slide open. *
Recoil spring: 5,000 †
Roll pins for breechblock retention (pins, HD): 5000
Safety lock spring: 20,000
Slide catch lever spring: 10,000
Takedown lever: 20,000
Trigger bar spring: 10,000

Mainspring (hammer spring): SIG SAUER evidently makes no formal recommendation about the mainspring, but lbj was told by customer service that guns with 40,000 rounds are still igniting their ammunition with the original spring. If ignition problems do develop and can't be determined to be due to other reasons, the obvious course would be to try a new mainspring.

* I also recommend replacing the magazine spring when ammunition is not held securely. This can occur before slide lock failures.

† I had seen an early recommendation here that the recoil spring be replaced after 3000 rounds, and that's what I follow.

For the armorers: SIG considers the extractor used in P220 stainless steel slides to be a "sacrificial" part, and that it should be replaced after it's removed from the slide.

----------------------------------
so my initial notes were incorrect - Sig does recommend the Trigger Bar Spring be replaced every 10,000 rounds .../ so I will have to get some ordered for the next time I strip my Sigs down... learn something new every day ...
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Old April 21, 2011, 06:48 PM   #15
Bfry012
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Thanks and keep them coming

All the comments have been great! Very informative. Some of you have mentioned other choices. If anyone has any other guns they would recommend, please let me know. I feel less than intelligent on the matter at hand and am very thankful for any insight. I will be going to the range tomorrow with a friend who is pretty experienced. If you have any suggestions on a rental gun let me know. I do know they do not rent Sig's. No one in my area does. Thanks again this forum and members have been great.
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Old April 21, 2011, 07:44 PM   #16
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First let me put on my flame suit....and its on, rent a glock 17 or 19 , another great choice is the M&p9 .... Good shooting and be safe
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Old April 21, 2011, 08:12 PM   #17
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Go with a Glock :)

My 2 cents - you can't go wrong with a Glock 19. Fun to shoot, very accurate, very reliable, easy to clean. Can also be used for CCW.
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Old April 21, 2011, 08:14 PM   #18
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Glock is great $510

^ what he says.

I have 450 rounds through mine now. No problems after I got a replacement for my recoil spring :-) the factory one's (03 springs) not ment for CHEAP target ammo. Got a (04) spring now and runs great.

But if you are trying to stay with the two listed? I would go with a name brand, SIG. I do not know much on the RIT. I know SIG is a great company.

If you really want a great 1911 go for a SA mil spec, but its more.
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Old April 21, 2011, 08:16 PM   #19
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Look out ! Her come the comments from the 1911 advocates!!!

My next pistol is going to be either the Glock 26 or 19.
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Old April 21, 2011, 08:22 PM   #20
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BigJim presents great info on the springs of a Sig and I don't want to argue with that, however, check this forum for a post on the requirements the CZ went thru for NATO approval. Take a little bit and search for it, the tests are impressive to say the least.
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Old April 22, 2011, 06:17 AM   #21
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BigJimP: Thanks for disagreeing without being disagreeable [as you always do, I know lots of folks that could stand to follow your gentlemanly example, sir]. I know that I'm in the minority on Sigs, but it's just human nature, I guess...the 2 times I've had the aforesaid part failure, plus it recently occurring to a co-worker, really just put me off of the brand. The notion of my agency forcing me to trust my life to a gun that has 3 times demonstrated it's unreliability just gets to me. It's well-known that I prefer Rugers, and that too is just human nature, because I have NEVER had any kind of hiccup or failure from that brand, and so it's what I trust. Conversely, I have no doubt that someone somewhere has had a Ruger fail them as Sig failed me, and they likewise have no use for my favorite manufacturer. So it goes. Take care.
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Old April 22, 2011, 06:39 AM   #22
Single Six
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BigJimP: Also, the trigger Bar Springs in both my original issued P220 as well as the newer issued P220ST broke around the 500 rounds mark, obviously nowhere close to 10,000 rounds. Plus, your suggestion of having a Sig armorer look the guns over periodically makes a lot of sense...which is exactly why it won't happen at my agency. We have a guy that took the Sig armorer course, but he does not do any such inspections. The only time he looks at our P220s is once a year at the range, and even then he's only checking to ensure we've cleaned them after qualifying. LE agencies [most, anyway] are still mainly reactive rather than pro-active, addressing obvious issues only after something really bad finally happens. Kind of makes me look forward to retiring. Talk to ya later.
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Old April 22, 2011, 12:19 PM   #23
BigJimP
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First of all - thanks Single6 .... / Like any mfg - it seems like Sig might have come up with a bad batch of springs ...and I hope someone in your dept at least discussed it with them. I don't know if they would recommend you send all the guns into them to be checked / or if you have a local sig Armorer that would do it for you ...but I don't think there is any doubt your senior officers or chief should order all those springs replaced in those duty guns ../ and not just the trigger bar spring ..I'd replace springs 100% in them if they were mine.

I know your duty armorers just checks the guns quickly - unless someone reports a broken gun ...but as a civilian / it was real easy for me to learn how to strip the Sigs down to a bare frame ...and some good DVD's really assisted me. Its a good addition to any gun library - if you like the Sig's ...

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/cid=0...search=sig_dvd

Here is a link / TJ's dvd is very good - and so is the 2 volume one - the American gunsmithing one is not nearly as detailed.
----------------

Here's a link to Brownells on springs - and you can see full retail on the trigger bar springs are $4 - $6 ....(and I'm sure your dept gets at least a 30% discount ) ....just like any gunsmith that has a commercial account with them.
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/cid=0...ger_bar_spring

Personally, I just checked my spring box - and found I have some / and I'm not a LE officer - so I'll probably just replace them next time I strip them down, in the winter to a bare frame - unless one of my guns fails. But 99% of the time my Sigs are just range guns / training guns ...
---------------------
I also understand your comment about trusting a gun ...and that's why my primary carry gun is a Wilson Combat CQB 5" model in .45 acp ....and I've had it awhile ...and it has 20,000 rds thru it or so ....but its never let me down. But I replace the firing pin and recoil springs in it every 5,000 rounds ....and the mainspring at around 10,000 just in case ... If I were you / I don't think I'd trust one of those Sig 220's as a duty gun either .... until I could run at least 5,000 rds thru one - as a range gun - with no issues...

stay well / and thanks again.
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Old April 22, 2011, 12:34 PM   #24
BigJimP
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To the OP ....

If you can't rent a Sig to fire it ...( my hunch is, if you're patient ---and see what some of the guys are shooting at the range ) you may see someone with a Sig at the range. Show some interest / and they might let you put a couple of rounds thru their gun ...( offer to buy them some ammo or a coke or something ...) ... But at the very least - talk to other gun owners / what did they buy, why, would they buy it again ...do they still like it ...or did they really want something else...

As to other guns to try - in my experience - every gun mfg has things that make them unique ...grip angles, sights, mag release, de-cocking levers, grip textures, how the trigger breaks, how it resets - some short, some long ...some at 10 lbs and some at 4.5 lbs ... so its hard to evaluate a Sig without shooting or at least holding a Sig ... but I would at least try and fire guns like the H&K USP or the P30 / as well as the Beretta PX4 ....they are similar in some respects --- and different in others ...

Shooting a stryker fired gun ....whether its a Glock, or whatever ...doesn't compare very well to a Sig in my opinon. I'm not trying to say a Glock is a bad gun ...its isn't ...but personally I think the Sig is a way better gun than a Glock - because of the controls, grip angle and trigger ...but it isn't about what I like / its about what fits your hands and what you like.
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Old April 22, 2011, 12:43 PM   #25
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I shot my 2022 today that I picked up yesterday. The trigger took some getting used to, but once I did, it shot great and accurate. My son who is a bit more experienced then I with handguns picked it right up and slaughtered that poor ole bulls eye....lol

It came with a lazer and I dinked around with that for a mag or two, but except for getting it in a 8 inch ring, I gave up using it and shot better using just the sights. I can see where in a panic nighttime situation it could come in handy, but other then that, I'll pass. It fed 130 rds without issue.

By the way, I shot my sons .40 Glock, I believe it's a 26 for the first time. It wasn't bad once I got used to the sight picture. I was rather accurate.

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