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Old January 26, 2000, 05:29 AM   #1
tuc22
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If my life were threatened to the point of requiring a deadly force response and then it turned out that in the next moment the threat required less than lethal force, guess what, I might smash the guy with the muzzle. Hard! Would you?
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Old January 26, 2000, 08:20 AM   #2
Matt VDW
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Be careful that your finger doesn't slip onto the trigger as you're bustin' heads with your handgun.

From what I've read, using the sidearm as an impact weapon was a favorite tactic of pre-WWII lawmen. I don't think I'd try it myself unless the gun was inoperative and gun-fu was my last resort.
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Old January 26, 2000, 10:39 AM   #3
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I'm kinda partial to gun-fu, myself, in proper circumstances!

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Old January 26, 2000, 11:00 AM   #4
Tim Burke
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Let me get this straight. You've got a lethal threat in front of you. He's close enough to strike, which means he close enough to disarm you and shoot you with your pistol, even if he's unarmed. Somehow he stops being a lethal threat, but he's still acting aggressively, since you feel the need to hit him rather than retreat. I'm not sure how that could happen, but if it could, I'd worry about retaining my firearm, and not using it as an impact weapon. It's not an impact weapon until I'm out of ammo.

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Old January 26, 2000, 12:28 PM   #5
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I remember a recent article I read. The gent in question emptied his .357 into a feral dog, then beat the dog down when it came at him. I think we should be as versatile as reasonably possible with our tools, without losing our "reality checks". (This is, for instance, why I feel that it's good to occasionally practice throwing objects for defense, but not to rely on doing it in life and death struggles. If I'm stuck in a Luby's cafeteria without a firearm, though, and a madman is shooting my kin, I'm sure as heck gonna be throwing something at him!)
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Old January 26, 2000, 12:29 PM   #6
tuc22
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You know,life is funny that way, maybe you can't imagine a situation like that but that doesn't mean it won't happen. To better illustrate it, perhaps you might invision more than one intruder in your home(where the law allows for more defensive options), then try to recall how a pistol can be held in a position of retainment (close to body) instead of classic "stop or I'll shoot mode" now if you know better than to swing your gun like a bat and striking quickly using the muzzle delivered as a punch, you'll find that, with your finger held out of the trigger guard, the pistol will not eject a round and will stay in battery. This is an effective technique.
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Old January 26, 2000, 05:20 PM   #7
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tuc22,

Was the threat armed or not? If the threat level no longer requires deadly force, then reacting with a firearm may re-escalate the threat. Like Tim Burke was referring to.....retaining one's firearm in hand to hand fight. Reacting to a non-lethal threat with a firearm may instead turn into a struggle to retain your weapon.If the threat level declines than the amount of force/reaction must decline also. Re-holster your primary weapon and transition to secondary weapon(i.e.: mace, ASP baton, etc.) Too many factors were left out to give a black or white answer. But if the threat is close enough to hit then use use a palm strike to the nose to gain distance and to re-evaluate your course of action. Hope that helps.

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Old January 26, 2000, 06:16 PM   #8
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Circumstances could cause you to do this, but a couple of things come to mind. As above, there is the threat of accidental discharge and hitting something you shouldn't. Second, your blow might damage your weapon. I have seen a revolver barrel (4 in. Mdl. 66) bent striking a subject in the head. This might leave you without a handgun and the situation might again call for it. Third, most likely blow target is the head, right? It takes a VERY hard blow to do enough damage to stop someone with a head blow. Such a blow might be at or near lethal level. On TV, when you whack somebody in the head with anything, they grunt and fall unconcious. In real life, they scream, bleed profusely, and often get mad and fight like the devil. Least of all but certainly a worry, head wounds cuts caused by the metal edges of a pistol look ugly and bleed a lot, which MIGHT be a consideration in any future court action. I got some of this info from reading Ayoob, some of it I have noted myself.

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Old January 26, 2000, 08:06 PM   #9
Steve Smith
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Good topic! I have a little to add too. A certain very battle hardened and high ranking enlisted green beret hunts with me. He's shown us several "non-lethal" uses of weapons. He says the "butt strike" is for the movies, they use the muzzle of rifles on the solar plexus or throat HARD!!! Puts guys down way fast. With pistols, a face stike with the muzzle straight on with both hands (and of course, very fast and hard so that the opponent can't grab your gun) , is a good "get out of my face" tool. Just a thought.
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Old January 27, 2000, 03:50 AM   #10
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You can't imagine it, but it does happen. I won't bore anyone with war stories, but I have put six stiches in a crooks head with a Glock 19, broken a wrist with a Rem. 870, and K/o'd another idiot with an 870- Stuff happens in the wonderful world of real deal CQC, and you better be ready for it. There are a lot of armchair commandos out there preaching about this kind of stuff, the only thing I can recommnd, is good discipline, training and forethought. Good thread.

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Old January 27, 2000, 05:48 AM   #11
tuc22
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Thanks Frontsight and nyeti,
All I wanted to do was to get people to think. I must admit to being amused by some who refuse to look at alternative methods. Why would you necessarily transition to "secondary" weapon when your "primary" could do double duty as a striking tool. It's all in how you wield it. Sure, the gun could discharge, or you break the pistol, or injure your hand, IF YOU DO IT WRONG! At my range I have a martial arts training dummy, life sized, made from steel belted radial auto tires weighing about 100lbs. Now, with a loaded Glock 22 I go full power using either the top of the slide or the muzzle as the striking surface on this very tough skinned object. Guess what! using offense as defense tactics, and beginning with the pistol in a retention ready position, this is quite a demonstration to behold. The tire dummy is slammed back, hard, and the live round is retained. I've even followed this exercise with subsequent shots on another target set downrange. Oh, did I forget to mention finger is outside the trigger guard?? What makes this tactic so beautiful is your opponent sees gun and is worried about being shot, a sudden attack launched directly at him provides the surprise element and the resulting blow is very devestating indeed. Before anyone starts dreaming up likely scenarios and legal and ethical questions, consider first the possibility of this method as an effective counter attack and give it its due. This forum is, after all, advertised as "no holds barred".



[This message has been edited by tuc22 (edited January 27, 2000).]
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Old January 27, 2000, 08:45 AM   #12
Matt VDW
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Hmmm... It sounds as though you've done your homework, tuc22.

Nyeti: No, please, bore us with a war story! We armchair commandos love that stuff. Or, if you could, at least please let us know the general circumstances that led you to use a firearm as an impact weapon. Were you, for instance, fighting to maintain control of your shotgun? Subduing a suspect who was resisting arrest? (BTW, I'm assuming that you're some sort of cop and not just a guy who fights a lot.)

I've been hit in the back of the head with a metal object (which I thought at the time was a pipe, though I never got a good look) and, in line with Jhp147's observations, it wasn't a knockout blow. I was stunned for a few seconds and did need to have my scalp stitched up. If I hadn't been wearing a hat, the cut probably would have been worse.
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Old January 27, 2000, 11:07 AM   #13
Tim Burke
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I, too, would like to hear the war stories. How else are we to evaluate whether using the firearm as an impact weapon is appropriate? I don't doubt that it happens, but I'm not sure that shooting isn't a more appropriate answer, unless I know the scenario.

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Old January 27, 2000, 11:34 AM   #14
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A war story:

In the late 1960's I walked into a hallway of a building on routine business (working security job) where a resident had a female held with a knife to her throat. now you can come up with all of the "tactial" BS you want and all the options. The butcher knife was on its way to her throat.
Keep in mind he is about 65 years old, 5-7 and about 275 lbs. She is about the same age and thin.
I grabbed his arm and stopped the plunge. So far so good. I bent his arm as best I could and keep in mind I'm 6-6 and about 275 or so at the time.
We wrestled around and I knew the knife could slip and slash me. SO, I danced some more and my partner showed up hit the guy at the knees and he went down. My partner is about my size.
Once on the floor the guy wouldn't let go of the knife. So I beat on his hand. NO luck. Decided to get my gun out, but each time I moved he started to get up. My partner was over his waist and legs also holding the knife arm.
SO, I got my gun out, (model 10) and he started to move before I got it into position to shoot him, so I hit him with it. I hit him repeatedly causing blood to spray on the walls and us. He still hung onto the knife. I beat his hand and broke bones. In all honesty I forgot I could shoot him and was using the gun as a club. This is common and a normal response BTW. He kept the knife in his grip so I decided to shoot him. I got the gun behind his ear (our strength was about gone) and pulled the trigger. NOTHING! The unprotected ejection rod and crane were damaged. So I beat him some more.
He let go of the knife and two officers came into the building and told us to let him up. It looked like a butcher shop. Blood all over the walls, floor and us.
I warned them it wasn't a good idea. They disagreed and when I relaxed myself a split second he got up, hit both officers and drove both of them through two sets of glass doors, two other doors, down two sets of steps into the street. Took 5+ officers to get him into the wagon. He took 100+ stiches to close up his wounds, he went into a nut house and never came out.
When in such situations the best plans go to hell on you. It isn't like movies or gun rags that tell you what YOU will do. The thug has something to say about it, along with circumstances. You bet I should have done it different. Not much time for a flash sight picture, crush grip, speed rock, crapola. That only works at the range.
I still recall the address. 740 E. 16th St. near downtown Mpls.
I had a very similar experience last February while working my fun part time security job with a fellow who couldn't wear a necktie because it would cover his ears if you get the drift. The world is well populated by these types. My medical bills came to about $10K it looks like..praise the lord for workman's comp. Some folks only get ****** off if you shoot them. Gun rags don't tell us about those types.

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Old January 27, 2000, 04:09 PM   #15
KaliSIG
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tuc22,

In regards to "why transition from primary weapon to secondary weapon?".....depending on what the situation calls for, that is a viable alternative. BUT there are many variables that would determine one's course of action. Just as there are many variables there are also many options one has to deal with the situation at hand. Since this forum is "no-holds barred" then how practical is it to pistol-whip a tire that won't react to your action. The only safe way to determine the plausibility of that action is to train with a rubber dummy gun against a live opponent who can give you feedback. That is what CQB training is all about. Again, there are no black and white answers to your black and white scenario.....but I do agree with you in that sometimes using your primary weapon as an impact weapon is an option.....if and when the situation calls for it. Hope that amuses you.

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Old January 27, 2000, 05:31 PM   #16
Spectre
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Some of us are civilians. We may not have a secondary weapon mounted to our PJ's when awakened by our bedroom door splintering in at 3 AM.

Firearms malfunction. If used, they run out of ammo. It just makes sense to know your options.
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Old January 28, 2000, 12:33 AM   #17
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Readers digest on the Glock one-Two suspects stab an off-duty cop at a picnic. Of the about 30 officers there I was the only one armed. Suspects flee in a vehicle, and I took up chase with the only other sober one there. I provided the other officer with a firearm, and we caught the crooks at the next light in traffic. We exited the vehicle and approached the suspect vehicle. We ordered the two suspects out after ID ing ourselves, and the driver rammed the vehicle in front of him in an attempt to escape. The passenger surrendered to my partner, the driver was not going with the program. The driver leaned into the back seat while I was trying to get the car into park (Glock 19 in my hand the whole time). The driver was trying to recover the sharpened Phillips head screwdriver used in the stabbing. I got the vehicle shut off, and determined that I needed to create some distance. While I was backing out of the car, the suspect began coming back up from the back seat. The other officer had reached into the vehicle from the passenger side side and kicked the driver, preventing him from coming up with the weapon. As he began coming up, I was in position to dump him, but when I saw he didn't have a weapon, I rapidly smacked him in the temple while backing out of the doorframe (of course finger out of the trigger guard). This blow made a perfect imprint of the Glock's front end in his head. As I backed up a couple feet, the suspect exited the vehicle and the chase was on. Nothing like running down a busy street in jeans, t-shirt, and Glock. After a very lengthy foot chase, and a nasty takedown the bad guy got escorted back in a severe control hold, just as the local cops arrived and took custody of the bad guys. Couple of good things-had an extra gun for the unarmed officer, and a holster that I could re-holster when the thing went physical at the end. The muzzle strike went well in getting me some distance and out of his grasp for a take-away attempt. I wished I had some cuffs somewhere. The 870 cases were both results of working with some real cowards who couldn't control a situation, and I had to step in to a contact role from a cover position to end the situation. I hope this was helpful. In regards to the armchair comment, I am usually refering to the gun writers who have never done a thing, and the braggerts with zero real world experience, not the serious students who want to learn (I am still one of those myself).

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Old January 28, 2000, 10:59 AM   #18
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NYETI, I think the board members need a term defined. " severe control hold." If I may, the term here has a more defined explanation.
" THE THUG ASSOCIATED PAIN WITH NOT COMPLYING WITH MY CONCERNS FOR KEEPING HIM IN CUSTODY."
On the street the thug knows it means, " this guy is trying to do maximum damage to me that won't show up in pictures and eyewitnesses can't tell he's hurtng he hell out of me, and there will be nothing to show my lawyer."
Have we got that right? I don't expect the "truth." Let's just say those of us with street experience know the "talk." Nice work
Of course you violated dozens of rules and did things that arn't textbook. But if you did they'd probably still be running around someplace.

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Old January 28, 2000, 05:25 PM   #19
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interesting thread,
i feel that the only way this is going to happen with *repeatable* success is if you train for that contingency. while situational response is at times better than nothing, i'd suggest that everyone make sure they have an automatic trigger finger response (straight and extended alongside the frame) to when you're not shooting- much less before considering strikes than if you are considering carrying at all.

case in point, two **pd officers are struggling with a suspect, officer one decides to do what he sees in the movies and strikes the perp on the head with the butt of his issue glock 19 (w/ ny++ trigger). single round discharge strikes officer 2 in the head, killing him.

if you are serious about being effective with a handgun as a non-lethal blunt trauma tool, i'd get a buddy to don the fist gear and get a feel for simple strikes. i'm sure our moderator can talk more at length regarding the defensive AND offensive applications of the pistol strike via the ggg-afb and the principle behind it.
harry, care to chime in?

best,
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Old January 29, 2000, 03:33 AM   #20
pluspinc
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success is if you train for that contingency. while situational response is at times better than nothing, i'd suggest that everyone make sure they have an automatic trigger finger response (straight and extended alongside the frame) to when you're not shooting- much less before considering strikes than if you considering carrying at all.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You ASSUME a person can train for events like I had. Sorry, not real world logic. "automatic extended trigger finger response." Now theres a new buzzword sentence. I don't recall when you are looking at the knife etc., that such phrases pop into ones mind. I didn't think about stances, flash sight pictures, crush grips etc. I thought of staying alive. When in such REAL situations you make up the rules as you go along as the bad guy dictates where it is all going. BTW, when you have your gun out of the holster you put your finger ON the trigger. Dr. Fackler did an interesting study on that. With all the severe problems facing us in such situation we have to stop ADDING them. Having a finger off the trigger causes a dramatic increase in response time. We have to stop coming up with excuses NOT to shoot. I could give a tinkers damn less about my employers concerns of liability. My ONLY concern is my survival. The job isn't worth that much to me, nor should it be to someone else. If you think otherwise your wife and someone else will spend the money.


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Old January 29, 2000, 04:09 AM   #21
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Ive gotta admit that im a bit surprised at the length this thread has...lol.....it would seem to me that you use what ever is at hand if you deem/react to if necessary, perhaps with the realization that using the handgun as a striking implement has the possibility in some weapons of stopping there function as a firearm and in some cases the situation, finger in trigger etc, could cause a discharge(hasnt this been reported a couple of times?)......it has had some interesting discussion but Im no "real world" operator, just a curious gun owner......fubsy.
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Old January 29, 2000, 10:14 AM   #22
Tim Burke
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My point in my initial post was that I thought that, in the scenario as presented, the antagonist would still be a lethal threat. I note that in both of the war stories, shooting the antagonist would have been justifiable. In both of them, the presence of a partner made the use of lethal force difficult to do safely. I don't think the "threat required less than lethal force" as stated in the initial post.
What I ignored was the possibility that other circumstances might prevent me from shooting safely.

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Old January 29, 2000, 10:27 PM   #23
nyeti
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Reference the finger and trigger question-I can count the times I have had my finger on the trigger on one hand-and a near equal number of shootings. All those negligent discharges, and guys shooting themselves and each other, are all due to finger on the trigger when you are not ready, or going to shoot. I can sight numerous examples from my own agency of negligent discharges all due to this, including one fatality. Sorry, it isn't worth it to me. In the CQC enviornment there is way to much physical stuff going on to allow for a breach of this rule, period.
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Old January 30, 2000, 12:06 AM   #24
skdtac
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trust me pluspinc,
when i am looking at a knife, i'm not scrolling through my repetoire of non-lethal responses. your analogy is not apt because the pistol strike being discussed here is a specific response to a non-lethal threat. if i decide to strike someone with a pistol, i don't want to have my finger near the trigger and i would prefer to have practiced that motion previously. you're right that you can't train for these events and "contingency" was not the right choice of words on my part, but i'm trying to comment on the training of an action. if your "real world logic" places no value on training specific actions, then put me on record as being illogical.

re: trigger finger response, i'm glad you found my terminology amusing but don't misrepresent what i'm saying- not trying to create a "buzzword", just trying to explain a simple idea: if you are going to try to use your pistol as a striking tool, keep your finger out of the trigger. as for trigger response time and fackler, don't see how it applies after the decision is made to strike someone with your gun.

the officer i mentioned ended up "winging it" and killed his partner. what i'm trying to tap into is the universal idea we all know as falling to ones level of training. striking with pistols is not my favorite thing in the world, but i stand behind the idea that if you practice any action, you'll be more effective when using it.

best regards,
joe


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Old January 30, 2000, 06:29 AM   #25
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I would like to add one point here that has been briefly touched and that is the unfortunate position of facing some0ne with a knife----Ive done my share of karate (isshinryu) and all i can really say is that none of that empty hand vs knife stuff works...your gonna get cut, get cut a lot and bleed a lot........we'd do the standard chalk knife drills etc, and it was amazing how chewed up you'd get......but what really drove it home to me was an accident that I had recently. At the time I had a reasonably new spyderco delica I was trimming a piece of plastic while sitting cross legged on the floor--I was pulling the blade toward me as I felt I had better control..In order to keep peace in the family I turned the situation around and pushed the knife against the plastic---knife came out of the plastic and hit the mid front of my calf, a beautiful snap cut it was so sharp and fast I didnt realize Id been cut, I had newspaper over my lap to ketch the trimmings, a few seconds later i realized that there was something on my leg and removed the paper and there was a 2" gash appx 1/4" deep and it was not only bleeding profusely, but every time my heart would pump I get treated to the sight of a little blood spray...........bottom line for me was that i would have bled out long before I could have stopped someone....dont take a chance with anyone with a bladed implement....Ive seen tons of tapes on knife been to a few seminars and always knew they were deadly, but until you get cut, you have noidea how fast you can bleed out......jmo...fubsy.

[This message has been edited by fubsy (edited January 30, 2000).]
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