The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old April 17, 2011, 11:09 AM   #26
YARDDOG(1)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: GATOR COUNTRY HA HA HA!
Posts: 691
Just Look at where that shooter is from ; )
Y/D
__________________
There's a GATOR in the bushes & She's Callin my name
>Molly Hatchett<
YARDDOG(1) is offline  
Old April 17, 2011, 02:02 PM   #27
microman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 6, 2011
Posts: 428
Just read the story. Sounds like that guy's elevator did not
go all the way to the top.

Sorry for the innocent victim here.
microman is offline  
Old April 17, 2011, 02:27 PM   #28
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
Quote:
I fear too many people are sitting around, polishing their guns, just waiting for it to happen; itching for it to happen.
And is this supported by the huge volume of these types of shootings? Surely if your assertion is correct then there would be many of these types of shootings to back up your concern.

Quote:
So my problem is the 'hyper vigiliance' we had one poster who suggested he puts his hand in his 'gun pocket' any time he is near someone he doesnt know.
Hyper vigilance and breaking the law are two different things.

BTW who was injured by the poster who put his hand on the gun around strangers? I have personally accessed my handgun discretely because of a potential threat that turned out to be an innocent. The problem we as CW carriers face is the pounce style attack. This is when someone simply walks up and punches/attacks you violently then robs you. Defending against this style of attack is very difficult. While I don't feel the need to access my firearm for every single human I get close to, the poster in question may have a different set of concerns. Perhaps a handicap or disability. To these types of carriers they must be ready to defend against every normal person or face being quickly overwhelmed. Us normal folks can offer up a defense to most potential attackers. We have a luxury that they simply don't enjoy.

Bottom line is everyone will have to justify their actions. If you act prematurely it wasn't because of this or any other forum. It certainly wasn't because a member palmed his firearm around strangers.

Quote:
A reliable weapon, a basic exit plan(if practical, in many houses it just isn't, especially apartments), good nerves and aim and lots of range time is all you can realistically do, unless you are a police officer or a commando or someone else who is forced to face dangerous situations in order to do their jobs.
No this is not all you can realistically do. You can develop tactics used by those professionals you spoke of. You can learn them right here on TFL in a HD talk forum. From how to corner to gun retention. You will learn how to mount a proper defense everything from cell phones to lights to how to hunker down.

Guess what you won't see......a single member advocating the preemptive shooting of a stranger in your dad gum driveway!

If I sound aggravated my apologies. I just hate it when my quest to become better at self defense with a firearm somehow gets twisted into something like this.
threegun is offline  
Old April 17, 2011, 03:00 PM   #29
Mello2u
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2009
Location: Georgia
Posts: 1,424
Quote:
Post #18 Vt.birdhunter

Quote:
This is why I have a problem with all this HD talk
I dont understand, some loony opens fire without provocation, and this has to due with HD discussions here because.........?

Please dont throw the rest of us into the same category as the shooter in question.

Quote:
Post #19 TailGator

Leaving one's house to fire on someone who did not present a viable threat is not home defense, not self defense, and not defensible in any way. Discussions on this forum, and current laws governing the use of firearms, make it clear that responsible ownership and use of firearms preclude such actions.
I have to agree with these posts.
__________________
NRA Life Member - Orange Gunsite Member - NRA Certified Pistol Instructor
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society,
they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it.
" Frederic Bastiat
Mello2u is offline  
Old April 18, 2011, 01:58 AM   #30
Hook686
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2005
Location: USA The Great State of California
Posts: 1,974
I too believe that what people focus their thoughts, energy and planning on is what will manifest upon them.
__________________
Hook686

When the number of people in institutions reaches 51%, we change sides.
Hook686 is offline  
Old April 18, 2011, 03:33 AM   #31
sonick808
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 19, 2009
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 396
This guy is not in the same galaxy as your average gun owner / prepared citizen. What he did has nothing to do with discussing HD
sonick808 is offline  
Old April 18, 2011, 05:53 AM   #32
Vt.birdhunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 18, 2009
Posts: 541
Quote:
I too believe that what people focus their thoughts, energy and planning on is what will manifest upon them.
Hook686, I disagree with the general idea of this thread, but that is a really good point; youve got me thinking.
__________________
Maintaining a constant state of cat-like readiness and a heightened state of suspicious alertness.
Vt.birdhunter is offline  
Old April 18, 2011, 07:35 AM   #33
Dwight55
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2004
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 2,566
One of the first things we learn in the ministry, . . . anything that is done, said, sung, written or even hinted at: there is an agenda behind it, . . . and the agenda is precipitated by the person's perception of events.

The word "perception" is the key, . . . as events are often never what one thought they were.

I believe this situation is very probably one of those. The shooter did not sit in his Lazyboy, . . . loaded handgun on his lap, . . . awaiting someone to come into his driveway, . . . just so he could go shoot him.

There is more to this story than we see at this point, . . . and you can bet your last cartridge that HD hasn't got any place in this shooting. Think drugs, gambling, a vendetta, drunkenness, . . . lots of other things to explore long before we begin to blame HD as the culprit.

As an example: what precipitated the original post? Could it be an inordinate fear of people sticking guns in his/her face, . . . ??? Yep, . . . there was an agenda behind that original post, . . . and if it was simply aimed at HD, . . . then most likely the OP's perception is wrong, . . . as it certainly had nothing to do with traditional HD.

May God bless,
Dwight
__________________
www.dwightsgunleather.com
If you can breathe, . . . thank God!
If you can read, . . . thank a teacher!
If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!
Dwight55 is offline  
Old April 18, 2011, 07:44 AM   #34
jhenry
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2006
Location: Ozarks
Posts: 1,813
I agree 100%.

In addition, there is really is no way to have normal HD discussions that will have a substantive positive effect on the 1% he claims to be wrapping the posts around. IN FACT the 1% pretty much IS the reason we have concerns about personal defense at home and while out. The 99% are not the problem.
__________________
"A Liberal is someone who doesn't care what you do, as long as it's mandatory". - Charles Krauthammer
jhenry is offline  
Old April 18, 2011, 06:36 PM   #35
mnero
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 8, 2011
Location: east coast
Posts: 244
Why would fear of having a weapon drawn on one, be 'inordinate'? Due to the neccesities of my occupation, I must go to peoples houses; sometimes they are not happy to see me and I have had several weapons 'put in my face' as you say it. I would be a fool not fear a weapon leveled in my direction. In all those cases the person was, at least in his or her mind, 'defending their homes'. You are right about one thing, though, everyone has an agenda; I certainly made no effort to conceal mine. But inordinateNO I ain't going no where with no one who ain't afraid to be shot oh and Dwight; your welcome
__________________
"I'm what ya call a 'conscientious objector'; you know a coward". Bender "futurama"
mnero is offline  
Old April 18, 2011, 10:33 PM   #36
Ringolevio
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 30, 2011
Location: Where the Kaw meets the Mighty Mo
Posts: 241
The best tactic when knocking on doors

Let me chime in here...

I've done a good bit of door-to-door sales work, and even more repo'ing and collections (not repo'ing cars out of driveways, but knocking on the door and asking folks to either pay up on the spot or kindly surrender the merchandise).

Besides carrying a clipboard and not dressing like a hoodlum, the tactic that has served me well has been to smile! I smile as I walk up to the house, and I smile throughout the entire encounter. I especially smile as I explain that failure to resolve the problem will surely make it worse, and I smile even more broadly if they give me any kind of guff. And that really unnerves them!
Ringolevio is offline  
Old April 19, 2011, 07:10 AM   #37
mnero
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 8, 2011
Location: east coast
Posts: 244
Ringo; collecting old debts is what I do. They are rarely happy to see me and a smile doesnt help much, a little, but what really helps is the firm hand shake and a fair minded attitude. Unfortunately, sometimes you have to get past the gun toting home defender first. I don't carry for just the reason that, when two are carrying in a situation where no one really wants to fire a weapon, usually no one gets what they want. I find a positive attitude about the advantages of paying your debts and a immediate presentation about how they can pay on their own terms so long as they are able to pay something each month is more effective then a lot of badtalk and threats.

I still say it is damn near impossible to have an 'inordinate' fear of being shot in the face and frankly I would have expected a preacher like the one who basically was saying I am a coward(no coward would do my job or volunteer to be a navy corpsman) to be a little more understanding. I ain't no 'hero', but I ain't a coward either, I guess if you are not 'Rambo' in some peoples eyes you must be a coward
__________________
"I'm what ya call a 'conscientious objector'; you know a coward". Bender "futurama"
mnero is offline  
Old April 19, 2011, 08:12 AM   #38
BlueTrain
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2005
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 5,825
It seems to me that we need to worry more about good people doing bad things than the bad people doing bad things, which is assumed. There are lots of people who never did anything bad until one day, something snapped. Of course, afterwards, everyone says all the signs are obvious. But if that's so, then they might be coming after me.
__________________
Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands!
Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag,
and return us to our own beloved homes!
Buy War Bonds.
BlueTrain is offline  
Old April 19, 2011, 08:43 AM   #39
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
Quote:
I too believe that what people focus their thoughts, energy and planning on is what will manifest upon them.
Then I would have been robbed, shot, burglarized, caught in a riot, and all this while consuming my supply of stored food.

I could not disagree more with this. Preparing for an event/s doesn't make them happen to you.

If anything you are less likely to have these things manifest upon you if you are prepared. Just being focused AKA (situational Awareness) is proved to severely reduce victimization.

If the OP has a problem with HD talk in a forum titled Tactics and Training then perhaps the problem lies with him. There is no evidence that I am aware which would corroborate his claim. Ignoring these threads will both resolve his problem and allow those of us who find them occasionally informative to be educated.
threegun is offline  
Old April 19, 2011, 08:52 AM   #40
output
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 15, 2008
Posts: 294
Quote:
For G*d sakes defend your families, but we are not served well, by obsessing on this subject. I fear too many people are sitting around, polishing their guns, just waiting for it to happen; itching for it to happen.
Here we go again…

There is absolutely nothing wrong with prepping, preparing, or discussing training and tactics (“what if’s”) in any way. Discussion, debate, and consciousness are good things. This is a good example of how one incident can be turned into something that it isn’t by one person with insecurities.

I think Dwight is on to something. There has to be a a little more to this story.
__________________
"All the great things are simple, and many can be expressed in a single word: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope." -Winston Churchill
output is offline  
Old April 19, 2011, 12:29 PM   #41
mnero
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 8, 2011
Location: east coast
Posts: 244
One of our posters says he clutches his gun everytime he is near a stranger, another is planning on mowing the lawn with a mini 14 at his side and you wonder why I have suggested that some(I think I said 1% but boy it is looking like a bigger lot then that) of us may be abit over zealous. This was not an attack on HD although I admit the title was poorly chosen, but it is a question "why do some of us obsess on this subject" and what consequences such an obsession might have. It is ashame that what could have been a useful topic about restraint and responsibility has turned into an attack on the poster and the few who have agreed with what is somehow a controversial issue Frankly after reading some of the responses here I am more concerned then ever. I had to chase away what I thought was an intruder once in my first apartment, I confronted two black fellas who had gotten in my front door, they saw me in the nudeLOL pointinga 12 gauge double barrel shot gun at them; they left they ran lOL they were maintainence and had the wrong place. I did not hear them knock and they let themselves in. I got a dog the next week! Thank G*d I showed some restraint. I wonder how much restraint some of yawll would have shown LITTLE from what I see here too damn little!
__________________
"I'm what ya call a 'conscientious objector'; you know a coward". Bender "futurama"
mnero is offline  
Old April 19, 2011, 12:34 PM   #42
Skadoosh
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 13, 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,776
Quote:
it is the 1% that worries me
I worry about the 1% of any crowd...
__________________
NRA Life Member (2003)
USN Retired
I think that one of the notions common to the anti-gunner is the idea that being a victim is 'noble'; as if it is better to be noble in your suffering than disruptive in your own defense.
Skadoosh is offline  
Old April 19, 2011, 12:41 PM   #43
mnero
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 8, 2011
Location: east coast
Posts: 244
you should! But this crowd seems a lot more dangerous then any normal one
__________________
"I'm what ya call a 'conscientious objector'; you know a coward". Bender "futurama"
mnero is offline  
Old April 19, 2011, 01:55 PM   #44
Rifleman1776
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 25, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 3,309
I once had a job that required going onto rural area properties. Never had a problem. But there are ways to approach a house. Don't park too close. Always look for dogs. If you don't see activity just toot your horn. If you go to the door knock or ring then take a couple steps back.
If fact many farmers want you to toot before getting out of your vehicle. Some places the property owner will yell "Who's here?". A story has it that in Indiana they yell with their rural accent "Whosere?". Supposedly that is how Indiana got the nickname of the 'Hoosier' state. I dunno if it's true but it sounds like a good story.
On the job over time, I stopped at, literally, thousands of farms and rural homes. Never once had a problem. Got invited for coffee several times. And once a naked lady came to the door. Never had a gun pointed at me.
Rifleman1776 is offline  
Old April 19, 2011, 02:28 PM   #45
9mm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 9, 2011
Location: Land of the Free
Posts: 2,711
Quote:
For G*d sakes defend your families, but we are not served well, by obsessing on this subject. I fear too many people are sitting around, polishing their guns, just waiting for it to happen; itching for it to happen.
Wow, ANYONE doing this is a mental person.

This is a wrong attitude to have, you do not shoot someone just for pulling up on you're drive way, this man is beyond paranoid. If the guy started to break in then YES defend yourself. You can not just shoot someone for pulling into you're drive way.
__________________
See user title
9mm is offline  
Old April 19, 2011, 02:40 PM   #46
FireForged
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 1999
Location: Rebel South USA
Posts: 1,185
I am not going to condem the entire subject matter and fruitful debate of lawful SD simply becuase (1) person made a very bad decision.
__________________
Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...
FireForged is offline  
Old April 19, 2011, 02:47 PM   #47
Vanya
Staff
 
Join Date: July 7, 2008
Location: Upper midwest
Posts: 4,005
Quote:
Originally Posted by TailGator
Leaving one's house to fire on someone who did not present a viable threat is not home defense, not self defense, and not defensible in any way. Discussions on this forum, and current laws governing the use of firearms, make it clear that responsible ownership and use of firearms preclude such actions.
And that's why it's a good thing that this forum exists, and why it's a good thing that the same "What should you do if..." or "What should I have done when..." topics come up over and over again. The more we discuss what makes for responsible gun ownership, the better the chance those discussions will make an impression on people who don't get it.

Sure, a few gun owners are "hyper-vigilant" and "obsessive" about defending themselves -- it's a matter of probabilities, just as it's a matter of probabilities that a few gun owners are out-and-out whack jobs who, in an ideal world, would never be let near a gun. And it stands to reason that a forum like this is going to attract some percentage of those people. And, yes, there have been a few members here whose posts are a bit alarming in that regard -- not to mention those whose "routine" chest-thumping and bloodlust just indicate immaturity, lack of familiarity with current laws, and thoughtlessness (and perhaps an excess of testosterone ), rather than pathology.

Granted, we can't fix the nut cases -- but I'd like to think that if those other folks stick around, some of them, at least, will learn better; and the ones who don't learn tend not to last around here, anyway.

So, better we should keep up the "HD talk," say I...
__________________
"Once the writer in every individual comes to life (and that time is not far off), we are in for an age of universal deafness and lack of understanding."
(Milan Kundera, Book of Laughter and Forgetting, 1980)
Vanya is offline  
Old April 19, 2011, 05:02 PM   #48
Onward Allusion
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2009
Location: IN
Posts: 1,787
A few comments...

The shooter in the news story was clearly not your typical home owner who is concerned about their well-being. Who in their right mind would leave their house when someone pulls into their driveway and then proceed to shoot them multiple times? The guy was not of sound mind.

As far as the 1% comment. It's more than 1% of the population. There are about 7.3 million people who are on probation, in jail or prison, or on parole in this country. How many haven't been caught?

If it were not for even keeled forums like this, some of the more gung-ho folks would/could do something really stupid because they never learned the proper strategies or the understand the consequences of certain actions.
__________________
"With great power, there must also come great responsibility." - Stan Lee

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
Onward Allusion is offline  
Old April 19, 2011, 07:04 PM   #49
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
Quote:
One of our posters says he clutches his gun everytime he is near a stranger
So what? The only reason you know is because he said so. On the street you would never know. It would have zero effect on you or anyone.

Quote:
"why do some of us obsess on this subject"
Because some are more concerned than others. Some are in more danger than others. Some wish to be more prepared than others. Who are you to question our reasoning? Who are you to compare us to murderers?

Quote:
I wonder how much restraint some of yawll would have shown LITTLE from what I see here too damn little!
So only you are going to act appropriately and its because you don't talk in the HD forums you are currently talking in..........smooth LOL.
threegun is offline  
Old April 19, 2011, 07:27 PM   #50
jhenry
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2006
Location: Ozarks
Posts: 1,813
Quote:
you should! But this crowd seems a lot more dangerous then any normal one
Interesting. Very classy.

Like most folks who project in this manner, it is done with little to no awareness of just how much of an insight it gives.
__________________
"A Liberal is someone who doesn't care what you do, as long as it's mandatory". - Charles Krauthammer
jhenry is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:39 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.15640 seconds with 7 queries