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View Poll Results: Do LEO's have the proper training to handle a shootout when it happens?
Yes 17 34.69%
No 32 65.31%
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Old April 16, 2011, 02:49 PM   #26
MadHatter1
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Contrary to popular belief, Police hit their intended target a heck of a lot more than they miss. But only the misses and mistakes are news so thats what we hear about.
True, the media does emphasize the mistakes and errors. However, every study and report I've seen indicates that police MISS between 60% and 70% of the shots they take (outside of training and ranges). Thats indicitive of either poor training or a lack of emphisis (and therefor training) on shooting skills. About 5 years ago, NYPD reported that over 70% of the rounds officers fired in the streets of NYC were unintended- I read this as negligent discharges.
I have little confidence in the abilities of a "trained" police officer when in comes to firearms
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Old April 16, 2011, 03:45 PM   #27
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The way I look at it, the only good shooters are the ones who take a personal interest in it.
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Old April 16, 2011, 03:59 PM   #28
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Speaking for how it is at my agency, no, it's not good enough. You really can't call what we do "training". We "qualify" with our Sig P220s once a year, 50 rounds in daylight, 50 at night. This is utilizing the state-mandated course of fire that is actually geared toward revolvers, never having more than 6 rounds in an 8 round magazine. Time limits on each string of fire are way too generous. We stand square with our B-27 targets, with no emphasis on seeking cover, starting at the 3 yard line and working back to the 25 [only in daylight, at night we only go back as far as 15 yards]. I almost always score 100%, but I don't pat myself on the back...anyone with a modest amount of skill could easily do likewise.
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Old April 16, 2011, 04:04 PM   #29
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I have no experience in le, but in combat most of the shots taken by the marines I served with were not hits. When it comes down to it, no amount of training can make you steady your nerves, if you ain't cut out for it. Most men just aren't able to shoot straight when the other guy is shooting in their direction, myself included. Someone comes into my place that doesn't belong; I ain't waiting for them to start shooting. I know once that happens I am gonna hit the deck, better to shoot first.
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Old April 16, 2011, 04:38 PM   #30
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As far as what could be done to alleviate it..our respective agencies should maybe send us all to Blackwater [or whatever they call themselves now]. Or Thunder Ranch. Or Gunsite. Or, since we all know that will never happen, maybe have some of their personnel come and give us a few days of instruction....and, as long as I'm engaging in hopeless fantasy, I'd also like a bright red Lamborghini.
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Old April 16, 2011, 07:00 PM   #31
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All good insight. I just want to be clear that I was in no way bashing LEO's or Government Agents. I just thought it would be interesting to hear it from the source, and it has been. I'll agree that mindset and attitude play a big role in how effective training can be. When we trained there were always those soldiers who didn't want to be there, and they were rotated out of the platoon pretty quickly, so we were left with a good group of high speed guys who wanted to do nothing but train. I guess I was lucky, scratch that, I know I was lucky.
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Old April 17, 2011, 08:57 AM   #32
smince
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In my earlier post, I made the statement:
Quote:
I fully expect (and train for) protecting myself and family.
I am very willing to pay from my own pocket to take private classes.

The courses I have taken over the last few years average 20 or so students per class. Usually only 1-2 will be LE and 1-2 will be Military. The rest are always Joe Citizen like myself.

Things like groceries, car repair, dental bills get in the way of many taking private classes, but you can save up for the things you really want. Most will opt for a boat or ATV over training classes.
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Old April 17, 2011, 09:24 AM   #33
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I think that LEOs can be divided into two groups (I’ll discuss the Brass in a minute). One group of LEOs are very concerned about officer survival and will religiously train, whether on their own or through a combination of others (department, other departments, reading, practicing, etc.). The other group is just plain lazy and thinks that if my department wants me to shoot better, or save a life, they need to train me more than 4 times a year. This group will not shoot on their off-time and most probably will not own any other guns.

Brass, on the other hand, only cares about the bottom dollar of their budget. I was in a department that shot 4 times a year. I spent a lot of time and money to better educate myself and my familiarization with firearms and tactics. When I became a Firearms Instructor, DT Instructor and Officer Survival Instructor, I finally was able to change the program course and the time and quality of our shoots. We were mandated to shoot 4 times a year. I used this time to first qualify all, and then I set up tactical courses with instruction on officer survival. I worked simunitions, RedMan, etc. in these classes, and about ½ of the officers wanted to stay and learn more. Others bitterly complained about having to clean their gun, wanting to go elsewhere, etc. Gradually, through some innovation and “fun” exercises, was I able to get more and more officers to stay and shoot. I worked the firearms training up to 6-8 times a year.

To train LEOs better, you need qualified leaders at the top, making sound and realistic decisions about the officer survival training. This includes DT, Firearms, EVOC, etc. You need to train officers in realistic situations, so they react under stress EXACTLY as they have been trained. Standing on a firing line and waiting for the whistle to blow and putting two rounds in the paper target and re-holstering fast is NOT realistic training. This just gets more officers killed or wounded.
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Old April 17, 2011, 09:36 AM   #34
mnero
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it ain't the brass; it is the system they are forced to make work as best as they can. In the service we always looked to blame the 'brass' for all the stupid things we saw, but after a time I came to see that they were more frustrated by the sytem then we were and even if few of them were in the field, most had been there.
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Old April 17, 2011, 10:52 AM   #35
Glenn Dee
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Morning Gents...

Mad Hatter...
being an NYPD alumnus I'm thinking you may have misread those stats. 70% of all shots fired in the street are N/D's? Ummm If thats true they all may as well pack up and go home. First off... during the time period you present the NYPD had about fourty thousand gun toting sworn members. If they fired 10 shots in the street amongst them 7 of them were n/d's? I'm going to have to look into that stat... I just cant see it. I could see 70% misses on a bad day.... but N/D's?.. I dont know.
More on this later.
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Old April 17, 2011, 10:54 AM   #36
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They was warning shots Glenn. LOL
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Old April 17, 2011, 11:03 AM   #37
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Big Dog, I agree with you to an extent, and also agree with you Nero, to an extent As I said I was lucky, I was blessed with the best chain of command a soldier could ask for, from the buck E-5 all the way to Capitan. I can't say the same for the other platoons in the company, but that proves both points. My noncoms and officers were all very well trained, and had the "I won't ask one of my soldiers to take a bunker without beating him to it" attitude. OTOH, the other platoons weren't so lucky. 90% of their leadership was completely worthless. Because of that those platoons suffered. I hate tootin the horn but my platoon was the best in the battalion, and it was because of good leaders. So I do think that good brass would make better cops, but also think that no matter where you go there will always be those in charge who don't give a damn.
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Old April 17, 2011, 11:53 AM   #38
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Quote:
True, the media does emphasize the mistakes and errors. However, every study and report I've seen indicates that police MISS between 60% and 70% of the shots they take (outside of training and ranges). Thats indicitive of either poor training or a lack of emphisis (and therefor training) on shooting skills. About 5 years ago, NYPD reported that over 70% of the rounds officers fired in the streets of NYC were unintended- I read this as negligent discharges.
NYPD did not have 70% of their shots fired on the streets as unintended or negligent discharges. You either misread, misunderstood, or the person who conveying the information presented it incorrectly.

As for 60-70% missing, that is true. But what counts as a miss? A miss is anything that doesn't hit the perp. Here is an officer who missed something like 14 or 15 times, landing only one hit. Poorly trained and a poor shot? Not necessarily. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tBFXLNR2kI

The police need to do better, but number of shots fired versus impacts on the suspect is not always an indicator of how well they did. Sometimes your shots just aren't going through the barricade. Sometimes the shots aren't even meant for the suspect.

LAPD fired something like 600-800 rounds during the North Hollywood bank robbery. Poorly trained and poor shots? Mostly, no, just not trained for that sort of long range engagement.

Lubbock SWAT, sniper shoots two of his own officers, killing one, resulting in both teams present at scene to open up on the barricaded occupant who was hiding inside (in a closet as I recall), striking him once, never having seen him during the shooting, resulting in radio calls for more ammo to be brought to the scen after close to 400 rounds were expended. They had less than a 1% hit rate of which one shot struck two of their own and 1 shot hit the suspect who never fired at them. Poor shooting? Abysmal.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...threadid=75603
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74939
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89932
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Old April 17, 2011, 02:32 PM   #39
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The spectrum of police agencies is so wide, it's impossible to say yes or no.
My (Federal) agency required 4 shoots a year, at least one at night. Shot the qual course and a tactical problem each time.
We could have a shotgun, rifle, or both. 50 rnds per month if you wanted them. If you did not qualify, you lost your take home car. If you could not re mediate to qual, you lost your job!
Many of my co-workers were 'gun buffs', who also shot on their own time and dime.

Another agency in the Treasury Dept required their agents to get supervisor approval to take a handgun out of the office safe!

I saw a local SWAT team shoot where one member emptied 5 (repeat 5) Glock 9mm mags and still had not hit all 8, 8" plates, the furthest at 20 yards.

Most state mandated qual courses train on the wrong things (too long time limits, too many rounds from too far away), so everyone can ""qualify"".

In the "new generation" of officers, many are way too 'touchy feely', not gun oriented, and think they can ""establish empathy"" with the bad guys. Many only carry guns because they have to.

And one more thing - I have proven to my satisfaction that short, frequent range sessions, as short as 50 rounds, are better than 500 rounds in one day, but infrequently. The few rounds tend to 'focus the mind!
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Old April 17, 2011, 02:41 PM   #40
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The latest statistics from a professional LE magazine:

Hit ratio to rounds fired: 17%

80% of shootings at 7 yards or less

So, the need to make 50 yard shots is minimal. Close, fast, at bad breath distance is where we need to train!
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Old April 17, 2011, 03:35 PM   #41
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Spy, I don't really see that video falling into the category of a shoot out, but I guess it shows the hit/miss situation well. It made me ask more questions about this particular officers training. I realize he came very close to being shot, so he was probably scared, but why back strait up from the window? All he did was give the suspect time to line up a shot, had he stepped to his right and drew his weapon, the suspect couldn't have gotten a shot off in his direction, and he would have been in a much better position to return fire. Do they not train LEO's to take immediate cover in a situation like this? Then of course he tries to shoot the suspect as he's speeding away, I understand that, but why not shoot for the tires? 2 or 3 well placed rounds would have blown both rear tires and then they could have chased him down, he very well could have gotten away in this situation. So did lack of discipline play a part in this scenario? The LEO just got shot at, he's rightfully teed off, but is emptying a mag at a fleeing car the best thing to do? I don't think so, I think if this LEO had better training (physical and mental) he might have made some better decisions.
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Old April 17, 2011, 03:51 PM   #42
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There were alot of shootings in the urban NE large city that had 60-70 shots fired at a suspect, but only hitting them 3-4 times. What percentage is that?

It all comes back to how you are trained. Massive amount of lead heading down range with a couple of holes on the target. And that's without stress or adrenaline running!
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Old April 17, 2011, 04:27 PM   #43
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LMFAOOO Sarge

I wasnt going to sy anything...lol

Good one...lol
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Old April 17, 2011, 04:37 PM   #44
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Just wondering, how many people here spend time working on the very basics of shooting to the point that it is not fun anymore to build the muscle memory of proper shooting skills? There are a few guys in my department that can drive nails during a standard qual, but as soon as they are out of that comfort zone they struggle to keep it on the paper.
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Old April 18, 2011, 01:08 AM   #45
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Moose, once again I guess I'm lucky I drive out to our Strausburg property every few days, and every time I do I put atleast 20 rounds down range. We have a problem with rabbits and mice in the barn, and because of them we have rattlers, so every time I go out I get to shoot at a moving bunny rabbit from 20ft away. Somtimes it takes a few shots to get him but never more than 6. I'll agree with the post that say even a few rounds down range often is better than allot more rounds once or twice a year.
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Old April 20, 2011, 01:29 PM   #46
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Do we get enough training? Nope, not in anything, whether it's firearms, defensive tactics, pursuit/high speed driving, legal decision updates, patrol level crime scene processing, dealing with the mentally unstable and on and on.

Being firearms enthusiast, we tend to solely focus on marksmanship and that cops should all be expert shooters. The car enthusiasts tend to think our cars should all have high performance and that we have driving skills comparable to race car driver. The martial artists believe LEO should be a black belt in their dicipline. The truth is that in each of these areas law enforcement is far better than an average citizen but not on par with a specialist is those areas.

The why is simple, the citizens, through their elected representatives (city council members and mayors mostly) aren't willing to pay for all the training we should have and need. It's not just the direct cost of training (ammo, cars). It's also the extra staffing levels needed to provide service while some portion of the force is training.

Despite this, law enforcement officers are effectively dealing with lethal force encounters and prevail far more than we lose. This is despite the fact that in most instances the offender initiates the action and the officer reacts to it. It's not about marksmanship, it's about being aware, keeping your head, being decisive, and determined when someone suddenly pulls a gun on you at close range.
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Old April 20, 2011, 05:41 PM   #47
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I would, as a tax payer, rather have my tax dollars go to training the LEO's in my area, or on a federal level, go to training nation wide. Rather than have it go to completely unnecessary programs like planned parenthood,let me be clear, I am NOT trying to start a political debate over worthless government funded programs, I'm simply saying our taxes could be paying for better training for the LEO's that are risking their lives everyday, not paying for free condoms so tommy and jenny can skip school.
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Old April 21, 2011, 12:50 AM   #48
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The LEO just got shot at, he's rightfully teed off, but is emptying a mag at a fleeing car the best thing to do? I don't think so, I think if this LEO had better training (physical and mental) he might have made some better decisions.
In very few situations do the good guys make decisions in high stress incidents that are the best thing they can do. Yes, everyone could make better decisions with better training and more better training.

As for not being a shootout, shots were exchanged, it was a shootout.

Maybe you are lucky. Based on the vids I have seen of most the US military soldiers in combat, they make all sorts of mistakes on a regular basis. They are doing the best that they can, but apparently suffer from insufficiencies that undoubtedly are based in their training or lack thereof. They are woefully unprepared compared to what you refer to as having had "the time to train the way our combat troops do." I have yet to meet a single soldier who has told me that the training s/he received was fully sufficient such they the soldier was properly trained and had the mental mindset and skill set to respond correctly to their first several combat events and many never get properly up to speed.

Where many seem to really get up to speed is with experience of combat, but some manage to survive without ever getting up to speed (See "On Killing" by Grossman).
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Old April 21, 2011, 04:40 AM   #49
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See this is what I was afraid of, I'm thinking there won't be one LEO out there who says they get enough training.
Let me put your mind at ease in the case of the Mississippi Highway Patrol. 22 weeks of sequestered, paramilitary training. Punishing exercises, thousands of rounds fired, unforgiving academics, and an absolute intolerance for failure. Marines that wind up at the academy in Pearl, MS jokingly call it "Paris Island without the sand flies." Even training typically found exclusively in SWAT is the norm.

You can rest assured that Mississippians have complete confidence in the State Troopers. As a matter of fact, I've heard Pearl graduates ridiculed for being "those cops that think they're on SWAT." I can't say the same for other academies, like MPD Academy or Moorehead. The Memphis Academy trains so many officers from area departments that you kind of expect training to get rushed. It's not an ideal situation. And Moorehead has more emphasis on case law than tactics and is only 11 weeks, I think. So it just depends on the department really.
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Old April 21, 2011, 07:29 AM   #50
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Some very good points..

LEO officers are expected to do so much with VERY little training. I am a cop of 10 years and a trainer. Shooting is a very small part of it. No one has the time/budget/resources to spend hours on the range becoming marksmen. If you want that, you do it on your own time. I would say 99.5% of cops in my department don't touch firearms outside of work.
Cops (not counting SWAT) are SOL if coming up against a determined individual with better training and weapons. Too much police training in the past has focused on 'ambush' scenarios that cause cops to roll their eyes and look at the clock to see how much longer they need to endure this nonsense.
Keep the fundamentals simple and practice often.
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