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Old December 9, 1999, 01:32 PM   #1
Dad2Jane
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I THOUGHT that the subject line would get your attention! <smile>

No, seriously... I have a question that I really would appreciate your thoughts on...

I know several methods of incapacitating, or killing someone with 1 blow... methods which I would not hesitate to use if unarmed and confronted by someone with a weapon... asuming of course, that they are close enough, amatuerish enough, etc...

Should this knowledge and training be passed on to teens and others considering the rash of school shootings? From what I've read, several of the students doing the shooting were close enough to the victims to use the methods above.

What do you think?

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Old December 9, 1999, 05:03 PM   #2
Mort
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Depends on the kid, I guess. If it was my kid I wouldn't hesitate to teach them what little I know, given the alternative.

Everyone you care about should be familiarized with the defensive mindset.
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Old December 9, 1999, 06:33 PM   #3
Mikey
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They probably have a better chance of being struck by lightning...next Sunday...between 2 and 4 pm. But that doesn't mean much to those who happen to be the target of a shooter.

I believe the best thing we can do for our kids (or Grandkids in my case) is teach them about condition yellow - awareness. Most of them walk around in a haze, totally oblivious to their surroundings and potential danger. Hand-to-hand is great if they practice enough for it to become instinct but most kids won't. They will realistically have a split second to use this type of tactic and the more logical choice would probably be awareness and flight IMHO.

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Old December 9, 1999, 10:18 PM   #4
Espresso
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An interesting question. With my daughter being only three, it's not a question which has crossed my mind untill now.

I have studied the martial arts for several years now. Not the competitive aspects, but rather the practical fighting techniques. In my classes I have observed the wee folk train as well. Most of these children are aware that their skills allow them to seriously injure someone. But the fact is these same kids typically avoid conflict. Probably due to their high self-esteem and desire not to injure their clasmates.

I personally view my skills as nothing more than a defensive tool. I mean no disrespect to those martial art students who incorporate the arts as part of a holistic lifestyle. To me it's just another tool like my Benchmade or Colt.

In response to you question, I intend to decipline my daughter when she is mature enough. She will learn there may be times when defensive deadly force is unavoidable. Yes, I do intend to teach her as well as make instruction available to her an array of defensive knowledge including killing. This is of course assuming she is mature to handle this knowledge.

As her father it my responsibility to model the proper lifestyle, idiology and moral convictions. I seriously attempt to live by what I teach her. If killing by me is justified in self defense then why should it not be for my daughter? A self-defense response up to and including killing when unavoidable in preserving one's life is not immoral. Indeed it is a self-evident and universal truth.

On the surface, the prospect of instructing our youth in killing seems chilling and counter to most parent's notion that they are to be protected and insulated from all evil. However, to insulate them in this manner is to assure that they will be nurtured into sheep, ripe for plucking. Hardly an intended consequence. One thing that should be incorperated in their moral upbringing is a healthy respect for all life wheather it be a harvested animal or a psychopathic killer.

The key, I believe, goes beyond basic instruction of right from wrong. The key to maintaining their innocence and youth lies in instilling personal responsibility. When an individual's moral compass includes the notion and understanding that every individual is to be held responsible for his or her actions, any approprite response to an agressor is morally correct. To use your example of a high school student killing to defend his life or perhaps the life of another. The defender should not feel guilt or remorse for a morally approprite response. The fight was initiated by another.

These are my opinions. I welcome any serious dicussion.

Espresso

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Old December 10, 1999, 02:06 AM   #5
George Hill
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I dont even want to get into this - but at the same time, I think everyone should have the chance to learn a defensive art.

------------------
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
We, the people, are tired of being taxed, penalized, supervised, harassed,
and subjugated by a federal government which exceeds the powers
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Old December 11, 1999, 09:15 AM   #6
DAVE MOON
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Espresso-sharp guy. My thoughts: killing or incapacitating with one blow is very unlikely, with any of the "martial arts," or even sticks, knives or guns for that matter. Our weapons merely extend our REACH or FORCE delivered from our fists, and the ultimate weapon is the mind. Kids need to be taught this, as well as with all other "Life's Lessons."
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Old December 12, 1999, 07:39 PM   #7
AnthonyR
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I am a 15 year-old student at high-school. I am an avid shooter and I understand the complications of these school shootings. They aren't caused by any one thing, be it movies, games, guns, etc. I don't have any idea why they did it except if it was Satan...
I and many sane people I know watch violent movies, and we aren't affected. Go figure. I have access to many guns. (I own 6, two pistols and three rifles/shotguns.) I try to be as safe as possible when I am out shooting. My friends own their own firearms, but there aren't about to shoot anybody. All of us have had martial arts training, but we avoid all confrontations if possible. We could easily disable somebody with swift blows to certain places. I feel able to defend my house and property if I ever had to. (Which I hope I never do.)
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Old December 13, 1999, 12:39 AM   #8
Espresso
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AnthonyR,

As a teacher it's always a pleasure to hear students such as yourself with their heads on straight.

My thoughts as to the causes of why students, or anyone for that matter, do mayhem are centered around morality and responsibility. Unfortunately in my profession I can plainly and painfully see why some students are anti-social. After meeting with the parents of such students, it usually becomes very obvious why the student in question is the way he is. I don't know why there seems to be an increase in dysfunctional families, but there seems to a greater number of them than ever before. Dysfunctional families have such severe and deeply rooted problems that have to be addressed before morality and personal responsibility are addressed by them.

You sound as though you have your head on straight. Keep it up, and you and your friends will set an example for the others your age.

Expresso

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Old December 13, 1999, 05:12 PM   #9
AnthonyR
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I try to talk about shooting at school whenever I can without having other people think that I am crazy. It amazes me how many morons think that guns are bad. It is near-impossible to explain to them that a gun is a tool, just like a baseball bat or a knife. A lot of the girls I talked to wouldn't shoot anybody even if they were huritnk their children!!! This defies all logic. I can understand women with their motherly instint not wanting to harm anything, but when it comes to that something must be done. Most of them don't hunt, and some think that it is downright wrong to kill animals. If they thought, then they would realize that the cow, chicken, or any other kind of meat that they eat has been killed! What logic.

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Old December 14, 1999, 11:47 AM   #10
Byron Quick
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When I was fifteen I was cornered by an adult in a warehouse. Realizing I was going to be assaulted, I promptly did the pre-emptive strike thing and choked him unconscious with a jujutsu technique. When he regained consciousness I was pounding a 2 x 4 by his ear and inquiring if he wished to continue...he did not. I am grateful to the people who taught me potentially deadly techniques as a child and to my parents who allowed me to learn them.

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Old December 14, 1999, 12:46 PM   #11
SB
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*tap tap*

[This message has been edited by SB (edited December 14, 1999).]
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Old December 14, 1999, 12:46 PM   #12
SB
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Knowledge is power, but teach responsibly.
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Old December 14, 1999, 07:11 PM   #13
AnthonyR
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Knowledge is power, that is precisely why a couple black woman won a lawsuit against Paladin Press, Inc. They claim that one of the books published by this company enabled a man to kill their father. Someone had hired the man to kill their father. How silly. Lawsuits are moronic and accomplish things for the wrong purpose.

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"Those that give up essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
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Old December 16, 1999, 12:48 AM   #14
SB
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Read the second part about responsibility. I can't stress that enough. But yeah, we've had some pretty strange lawsuits in the US.

[This message has been edited by SB (edited December 16, 1999).]
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Old December 16, 1999, 10:08 AM   #15
AnthonyR
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Use responsibly. Laws cannot control the actions of some people.
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Old December 16, 1999, 10:08 AM   #16
AnthonyR
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Use responsibly. Laws cannot control the actions of some people.

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"Those that give up essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
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Old December 16, 1999, 11:48 PM   #17
larry_minn
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Teach kids how to kill in one blow?? I would say no. I assume you are talking under 14yrs old. As was said one blow kills are almost a myth. You would have to be talking life time training. "and even then you might be talking a (victim) caught off guard"
With a firearm you can control access to deadly force. If you are talking school shooting defense just being able to take the shooter down/disarm them is enough.
I also am a person who "took a few martial arts classes for a few years" Both what I would call "real" and competition type.
But of course everyones kids are different.
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Old December 17, 1999, 12:56 PM   #18
AnthonyR
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Of course it is very unlikely that you could kill somebody in one blow, but a quick knife-hand to the windpipe and a knee to the groin can disable just about anybody. I would not let anybody come into my school and start shooting. I'd throw things aat them, charge them, and stop it anyway I could.

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Old December 19, 1999, 03:55 AM   #19
stdalire
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It seems martial arts is also being discussed on this section of the forum.

What I am teaching to my kids, is to avoid a conflict to any one if possible. I always tell them Pls don't ever involve yourself to a fight not unless they will hit you or push you back.

I taught them basic blocks in martial arts and practical strikes i.e kicks on the groin, knee cap or below the knee, gouge the the eyes or scratch the face of the agressor, nd bite for distraction or releasing them if they are being hold.

My best advise to them is once they were hold by anyone with bad intention they just hit the agressor what ever they could do.

Anthony, I appreciate such ideas you have at your young age. Carry on.

Thanks

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Old December 20, 1999, 08:59 AM   #20
Dad2Jane
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stdalire,
Good post. My little girl is only 6, but she has already learned a little bit about martial arts. When she is 7, we will enroll her in a martial arts class. I would like for her to eventually become proficient in Aikido.

I liked the posts that talk about AVOIDING, if at all possible, conflicts. Me personally, I do the same. NOT because I'm scared, but when I was growing up, I used to be a real wimp. This eventually led to me getting into a VERY humiliating and painful encounter where I got my ass kicked.

I decided after that that I would NEVER be placed in that situation again. That's when I started learning about self-defense, martial arts, etc.

Now, I avoid situations which could lead to conflicts physically. Why? Because if I get in a fight, someone is going to the hospital or to the morgue... and I promise you, it WILL NOT be me.

That is also the reason for my signature profile of "Stand Against Evil, lest evil have its way". NO ONE has the right to hurt or kill an innocent person... and if I'm around, I'll do whatever is necessary to prevent that from happening... even if I don't know the person being attacked. That's also the reason I believe in concealed carry for the private citizen.


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Stand against evil, lest evil have its way...
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Old December 23, 1999, 02:31 AM   #21
4V50 Gary
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A good teacher teaches you not only how to use your body as a weapon, but how to use your mind. It is the responsibility which SB and AnthonyR spoke of.

A child may be taught moves which are potentially fatal. When that child is taught depends on the maturing of his appreciation of the responsibility for his conduct. His teacher should have a role and if that pupil is not ready yet, then should not be taught. I consider myself lucky to have had a very good teacher.

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Old December 23, 1999, 04:26 AM   #22
stdalire
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In the school, children cannot avoid sometimes that they have conflicts. As I said, I always advice my kids not to have any fight to any one as it will affects their personality in the school or they might be kick out for that matter. My daughter keeps complaining to me that sometimes her fellow students is trying to make trouble on her maybe because in student life you must have your own peer group and sometimes there are intrigues among students we don't know. Young people are agressive. As I said, I told my kids not to fight back as long as they are not hit. Non would like that your kids will be hit by another, because the only solution if something occur is a reprimand from the Principal or guidance counselor but your kids will suffer if he is the underdog.

Even in grade school kids has fight. My little boy who is 1st grade lst year is being drag by 4th grader, either the 4th grader is crazy or not I don't know. But we must accept the reality that frictions occurs in any schools among pupils or students.

Thus it is better for my kids to fight back rather than being beaten by any one and after the incident, whatever the consequences I am ready to face it. I am tired of being understanding to evil people no matter who he/she is. I know myself since I was a school boy, till I am a fraternity member in college of The "Alpha Phi Omega" which is founded in Lafayett College USA-1925, that right or wrong the doctrine should be followed for brotherhood, it is like comply first before you complain, for me know I have to use my mind before doing something. But as human we must know what is for others and others should know what is for us or in short follow the "Golden Rule".

I am teaching my 14 yrs old daughter of shooting too but I am not giving them access to my guns.

I love my wife and my kids and I don't want any one to hurt them nor they will hurt any one. But we must give the best advice to get away from trouble.

Thanks


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Old December 24, 1999, 12:06 AM   #23
AnthonyR
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I don't think you'll have a problem with your daughter getting into your guns...Not to interfere or anything...My dad only owns one pistol and i know where it is and if i have to it will be used.

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"Those that give up essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Don't **** down my back and tell me it's raining.
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Old December 24, 1999, 12:11 AM   #24
AnthonyR
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I dont get into many fights because i keep my mouth shut and dont talk about people. I dont let them trample over me, either.

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"Those that give up essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Don't **** down my back and tell me it's raining.
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Old December 27, 1999, 01:38 PM   #25
Donny
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Very interesting post!

I've come into it late, but it's never too late, is it?

My wife and I have custody of our 1st and only Grandson (for now). And he also wants to take the "course" in a local Tai Kwon Do academy. (I)we think it's a good idea. A mention was made of the school shootings, and in Ottumwa, IA, (our home now), a couple years ago there was a shooting, that left the one intended dead. I don't believe any amount of training would have spared the young man killed. He was the intended victim by the attacker.

As for others' preparing themselves for self defense, I'm all for it. It's a known, that the police (Sorry LEO's) are a reactionary force. It's an obvious impossibility for them to be everywhere, all the time. The Soviets did exactly that, and they still had crime of all flavors. As do the Chinese. Simply placing heavily armed police (really military) at every corner doesn't guarantee you anything resembling protection.

Best REgards,
Don
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