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Old May 31, 2013, 09:34 AM   #926
jimbob86
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Hmmm, tell me more about the fire breathing properties of H110.
Even out of a 6" .357 Revolver, it puts on a pretty impressive Sturm-und-Drang show....... at an IDPA mini-match, I was one of the later entrants, and the first target in the scenario was very close- the string started with the weak hand on the target, and at the "beep", the shooter was to push off the target while stepping back, drawing from and putting two rounds into the target ....... so there were 40+ holes in the middle of this cardboard target, all covered with pasters ..... the middle of the "0 down" zone was pretty much held together with pasters........ the lighting was dimmed (part of the scenario) ....... At the "beep", I pushed off, stepped back, drew to retention, BLAM! BLAM! ...... the muzzle flash was dazzling but the cloud of scorched pasters and cardboard drifting down around and behind the target was just as disconcerting ...... when they scored the target, they deciced to just assme "0 down", as there was a hole in the center big enough to put your hand through,surounded with powder burns, and some of the pasters covering bullet holes around it were blown off......

I'd like to see a pic of a max load of H110 out of a snub in dim light........
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Old May 31, 2013, 02:53 PM   #927
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H110 out of 327 SP101

One evening at our indoor range I shot 50 rounds of 327 Fed Mag 100 gr xtp over 12.7 gr of H110. The lighting is not really bright in this indoor range anyway, and that evening it seemed a bit less well lit---maybe it was the lane I was in....whatever. Anyway, the fire coming out in front of the cylinder gap was very impressive, and the muzzle flash was lighting up the lane really good. That would be impressive to see in the dark if there was a gun fight in a parking lot or something. Hope I never get that opportunity.
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Old May 31, 2013, 08:10 PM   #928
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Just got back from test firing my new H110 loads. I used 100 grain Hornady XTPs.

Good shooting. The load I used wasn't nearly as sinus-clearing as the 100 grain American Eagle factory stuff, thank goodness, but far more snappy than my plated bullet plinking rounds I load with Unique. It felt and sounded powerful. I didn't have a chrono with me and the wind was blowing like crazy, but at 7 yards standing and firing double action I was able to put them one after another into 1.5" groups. I'll never win any competitions shooting like this, but it's a good result for me and I don't flinch with the .327 like I tend to do with the .357 after a few cylinders of hot stuff.

Next week I hope to try some milk jug and wet phone book tests with several different loads to satisfy my curiosity.

I've been up and down on the .327 for about three years now, but have finally come to the conclusion that I really like it. It may not be the final word on handgun cartridges, but so what. It does what it was designed to do and does it well in my opinion. Some like it, some don't. Each to his own. It works for me so I'm going to stick with it. Honestly, I wasn't pleased with the .327 SP101 I owned a while back, but I'm really happy with the .327 GP100. The extra inch of barrel makes a big difference...to me. Maybe not to others. That's fine. I enjoy shooting this revolver and I seem to do it well, by my standards.

This whole week I've been firing the .327 GP-100 side by side with the .357 GP-100 I've owned since back in the 80s. I like them both, but that extra round makes a difference in my mind, especially when it's a round of significant power.

Anyway, just a quick trip report.

Now if Ruger would just get off their duffs and bring out the .327 Single Six all would be right with the world.

Carry on.
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Old June 5, 2013, 03:24 PM   #929
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I have always been intrigued by the .327, I would love to shoot one someday. I think it could be very useful for a broad range of uses despite what a lot of folks say. If I ever actually see one in a gun shop I'd be very tempted to pick it up.
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Old June 5, 2013, 04:46 PM   #930
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.327 magnum

A S&W K frame version in at least 4 " and 6" barrel length choices....okay , 3.5 " and 5 " barrel length choices would get my interest for sure !
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Old June 6, 2013, 03:26 AM   #931
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Win1886 - Since the .327 was designed around a 3" platform, I think a .327 K-frame based on the old S&W Model 65 would be quite the carry gun. Especially if they could slide a 7th shot into the cylinder.

In the longer barrel, I imagined a new Model 16 using the partial underlug featured on earlier magnums. That'd make it look like a Model 19 with a 5-inch barrel. That'd be sweet. Make it available in a 4 and 5 inch lightweight M&P version for hikers and campers.

Slip the .327 into an L-frame with a 4-5" round barrel, fixed sights, retro half-moon front sight and a partial "magnum" underlug (7 maybe 8 shots) and you'd have a new model we might call the Outdoorswoman.
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Old June 6, 2013, 08:45 AM   #932
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Where does the belief that the .327 was designed around a 3" platform come from? It seems to me that it was designed around the .32 H&R Mag with a goal of .357 Mag performance without exceeding .44 Mag pressures. I have found those criteria mentioned in articles. It then seems that gun manufacturers chose the platforms to offer it in.
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Old June 6, 2013, 10:00 AM   #933
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My 65 Lady Smith, which has the unique combo of fixed sight in fully lugged/shrouded 3" (plus satin stainless) would be the cat's meow in a 7 shot .327. I would think similarly a resurrection of the Ruger Speed Six as a 7 shot .327 would be nice as well.
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Old June 11, 2013, 03:30 AM   #934
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Where does the belief that the .327 was designed around a 3" platform come from?
From Ruger & Federal, actually.

Just before they released the .327 cartridge, Federal produced a short video for the cartridge and the Ruger SP-101. At the time, the (prototype) Ruger was the only revolver chambered for the round. In the video, they said the .327 was specifically developed for the 3-inch Ruger as an all-around carry gun.

The goal, according to Federal was to produce a round with the energy of the .357 Magnum with less recoil, to give an effective self-defense option to those who were unable to handle the often vicious recoil of a .357 in a small gun.

The video made it quite clear that all of the R&D for the round was done using the 3-inch SP-101 revolver. The selection and blending of powders, flash suppressants, etc were all done using a 3-inch barrel as the "standard length" for cartridge development.
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Old June 13, 2013, 12:52 AM   #935
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BillCA wrote:
Quote:
... they said the .327 was specifically developed for the 3-inch Ruger as an all-around carry gun... The video made it quite clear that all of the R&D for the round was done using the 3-inch SP-101 revolver. The selection and blending of powders, flash suppressants, etc were all done using a 3-inch barrel as the "standard length" for cartridge development.
I've heard about this but I haven't seen the video. Did they choose the 3" target first and work towards it? If they optimized the cartridge for performance at three inches, it doesn't necessarily follow that three inches will be optimal for what they produced. For instance, it looks like the jump to four inches picks up almost 150fps. It should also stabilize shooting. Muzzle flash is a common complaint with the .327 and the porting of those short barrels makes it worse. It seems like bumping up to four inches could really do a lot to improve performance.

Sure, an extra inch can decrease concealability but is it enough to matter? I guess we should also consider the jump from shorter snubs to 3" if concealability is that important. Another question is if I need to go that small, do I really want flashy .327 for the job? I feel like there is a curve for comfort and effective power relative to purpose and size. In a defensive pocket revolver, I like .32 H&R. For medium regular carry, I would love a 4" SP101 in .327. For heavier carry, I like a 5" .357. Needs beyond that start getting out of the realm of "regular carry".
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Old June 14, 2013, 07:04 AM   #936
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Cosmodragoon,

I wish I could find the original video. I'll have to search the other computer to see if maybe I was able to capture it. IIRC the goal was to produce a cartridge in .32 caliber (i.e. using existing bullet stocks) that was nearly as powerful as the .357 Magnum with less recoil and less of the nasty snot-loosening blast and concussion of the .357 Mag suitable for use in a personal defense revolver.

So going into the project, they knew it would have to produce high velocities out of a short-barreled revolver. They made it sound as though Ruger helped by providing the 3-inch SP-101 (3-1/16" nominal) which was chosen for it's solid construction. Whether that was done as a custom build or they provided an SP-101 in .32 H&R for Federal to ream out, I don't know.

Again, from memory; The Federal team experimented with some customized blended powders and found that they could push .32 caliber pill up to 1400 fps while keeping chamber pressures within reasonable limits. Apparently this was an issue early on with some powders used in test rigs. Some of their conventional powders produced pressure readings considered to high for practical use.

More work was done for accuracy and then again to add flash suppressants. The final product met their goals of producing true magnum performance from a snub gun while keeping recoil manageable for those who are intimidated by the .357 Magnum.

The round is "optimized" for the 3" barrel as it needs that length to build up enough steam to produce the 400-500 ft-lbs energy range from a short 3-inch launcher.

Opinion: Given the pressure limitations -- see reference list below -- the .327 Federal performs as well or better than the .357 Magnum from a short barrel. This satisfies the goal of making a small carry/protection gun with less recoil. And the "bonus" of a sixth round in the "J-frame" sized package. It's not perfectly optimized, of course, because there is some powder that burns outside the muzzle. Capture this powder in a longer barrel and it gives you some excellent ballistic results for a small cartridge.

SAAMI Cartridge Max Pressure Specs

9mm Luger.......... 35,000
9mm Luger +P....... 38,500
32 S&W Long.........15,000
32 H&R Mag......... 21,000 cup
357 Magnum......... 35,000
357 Maximum........ 40,000
10 mm.............. 37,500
41 Magnum.......... 36,000
44 Magnum.......... 36,000

Specifications are in PSI except as noted.
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Old June 14, 2013, 09:22 AM   #937
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So basically, when you say the cartridge was developed for a 3" barrel you mean Federal's factory ammo's powder charge was optimized for the 3" barrel? I can dink around with handloads for any particular gun chambered in a particular cartridge and say I've developed the cartridge for a particular barrel length? Wow! That somehow makes me feel very powerful.

My 327 cartridges were developed for a 2" barrel.
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Old June 14, 2013, 02:28 PM   #938
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BillCA, excellent post. It seems as though it is missing a very small but very relevant nugget in that SAAMI Max pressure for the .327 Federal is set at 45,000 PSI.

It's noticeable. It's why ATK/Federal factory loads and factory offered primed brass is built with the CCI-400 Small Rifle primer.

It's higher pressure than any "typical" handgun round in the modern day, mainstream chamberings. (not that .327 Federal is necessarily "mainstream", but excepting monsters such as the .460 Magnum and various niche & competition-oriented boutique calibers)

I've found that my brass simply isn't going to last as long as .357 Magnum brass, likely due to the pressure. A longitudinal case split is a more than casual occurrence.
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Old June 14, 2013, 03:26 PM   #939
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Sevens, Excepting the variables of load, at how many loadings do you see the split?
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Old June 14, 2013, 08:31 PM   #940
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Cesure,
I'm not sure if you're being facetious, smarmy or insulting.

Sevens,
Thanks for the added data elements. The laptop I'm on doesn't have all the .327 info I've previously downloaded and I forgot what the pressure spec was.

I've not taken the time to look for loading data on the .327, however I suspect that reloaded ammo will have a considerably more noticeable muzzle flash than factory. That's given Federal's statements about adding flash suppressants after establishing their mixture of powders.
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Old June 14, 2013, 08:41 PM   #941
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BillCA,

"I suspect that reloaded ammo will have a considerably more noticeable muzzle flash than factory."

From my 327 reloading experience with H110 and PP300MP, they definitely have a larger flash, and are much dirtier than AE 100gr. Also they significantly fall short on muzzle velocity. It'd be nice to know what witches brew federal is using.

Some 327 hand loads here:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=454312
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Old June 14, 2013, 09:23 PM   #942
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L.F.

I suspected velocities would be lower. Without seeing reloading data I didn't know how big the gap was. And I wasn't sure that someone hadn't been able to pull the hat out of a rabbit, regarding velocities.

I doubt we'll ever know what kind of powders were "blended" for the .327's factory loads. Mostly because if they told us, then some damnfool would try to do it hisself and launch gun parts into orbit.

Getting 1350 fps with a Gold Dot JHP seems to me to be decent performance for a handload. Now what we need are some good LSWC and LSWC-HP designs for the .312" bullets and gas checks.
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Old June 15, 2013, 04:13 AM   #943
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Sevens, Excepting the variables of load, at how many loadings do you see the split?
I could only throw a guess or maybe to be more accurate... a minimum number of loadings, as I don't track that.

It's typically happening in my nickel rather than my brass, and I'm certain they've had at least 5-6 loadings...some of them--more.

Haven't seen a neck split yet.
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Old June 15, 2013, 07:36 AM   #944
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Sevens, Interesting. I say that because to date the only cases I've reloaded have been Speer Gold Dot (all nickel) and I've yet to have a case failure. Some at 9 re-loadings some at 10, (with some of them Blue Dot way too hot). All have been shot through a Ruger SP101 with really tight chambers, maybe that's why. In any case I'll watch closely.
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Old June 15, 2013, 11:30 AM   #945
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It's a very inexact science, for sure! A large share of my nickel .327 came to me in a lot of once-fired brass from the 85gr Federal Hydra-Shock load. That same brass was loaded a couple times and fired from an SP-101, and now gets launched from my 4.2" barreled GP-100.

I'm not saying that I'm destroying all my brass, just that this stuff is simply not going to last as long as .357 Magnum brass.
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Old June 15, 2013, 08:55 PM   #946
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It's typically happening in my nickel rather than my brass...
I've heard/read repeatedly over the years that nickel cases tend to split faster than brass cases.
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Old June 15, 2013, 10:28 PM   #947
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Agreed, but reiterate that I'm talking a lengthwise split that doesn't include the case mouth... which MAY be the type of split that nickel plated cases have a bit more a reputation for doing. Or maybe not.

I do get similar splits in my OLDEST lot of nickel plated .38 Special brass. This was a 500-pc lot of mostly R-P, all in nickel, that I snagged from Midway, circa 1991 or 1992. It's never seen more than 20k PSI...let alone the 40-45k PSI I'm throttling this .327 Federal brass at.
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Old June 16, 2013, 12:28 AM   #948
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I'm talking a lengthwise split that doesn't include the case mouth...
Weird...that's like what one would expect from an oversize chamber.
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Old June 16, 2013, 11:00 AM   #949
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It's on my list of wants. Just pretty far down. I like the idea of the cartridge. But I am cutting back on my gun purchasing so I can purchase my first home to defend with my current collection. Haha!
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Old June 16, 2013, 11:11 PM   #950
Sevens
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Weird...that's like what one would expect from an oversize chamber.
In my experience, this is not at all weird. As said, I get them occasionally (not rarely) in older .38 Special brass running less than half the pressure, and I run that brass and those loads through more than half a dozen different .38s & .357 Magnum revolvers.

In my opinion, this is something I simply get with nickel plated revolver brass.
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