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Old August 16, 2011, 02:42 PM   #401
FrankenMauser
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Saw Charter Arms and SW 327s at Cabelas this weekend. Interesting they also had a SW 63 in 22 LR mislabeled as a 632 - told the clerk, very, very politely, and he first denied the mistake and then got huffy. Sigh.
Gun store "Gods" don't like it when their 'subjects' question their knowledge and authority.
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Old August 16, 2011, 05:57 PM   #402
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one more opinion

I thought the idea of the 327 magnum was a really good one. The only problem I see with the round is that no major manufacturer seems to be loading the round to its full CUP potential. I would like to see some 327 loaded to what it "can be", not what it "has been". And, for what it's worth, I asked Double Tap if they were going to load some 327, and they said that it was an issue of component availability, so...

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Old August 16, 2011, 07:10 PM   #403
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.327 mag

to 9MM, the .327 also handles H&R mags;plus if you study the ballistics,it shows relatively good power, fps,etc,.certainly doesn't kick like the 357.And do we need another cartridge;to quote the rifle guru Jack O'Connor,"the world would have done fine with the 7mm, the 257, robts and the 30-06.
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Old August 16, 2011, 07:15 PM   #404
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The only problem I see with the round is that no major manufacturer seems to be loading the round to its full CUP potential. I would like to see some 327 loaded to what it "can be", not what it "has been".
You could learn to handload ....... then you could tap dance at the Splodeyville city limits to your heart's content, 'cause, as we all know, you can do it better than the major manufacturers, as you don't have to worry about lawsuits...... it's your gun, beat it if you want to!
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Old August 16, 2011, 09:54 PM   #405
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The only problem I see with the round is that no major manufacturer seems to be loading the round to its full CUP potential.
Hmmm, I'm thinking the American Eagle 100 grain soft point bullet moving at 1,500 feet per second and generating right at 500 foot pounds of kinetic energy is probably enough to put the sting into most folks' palms after a few cylinders.

That's about as much power as I figure I'll ever want from a snubby.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=462443
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Old August 17, 2011, 03:07 AM   #406
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Hmmm, I'm thinking the American Eagle 100 grain soft point bullet moving at 1,500 feet per second and generating right at 500 foot pounds of kinetic energy is probably enough to put the sting into most folks' palms after a few cylinders.

That's about as much power as I figure I'll ever want from a snubby.
Out of the SP101, you feel it (not too bad). I imagine it wouldn't be bad out of the GP100 (1,580-1,600 fps?). From the Blackhawk (1,700+ fps )... It's nothing. I'm really not sure about the S&W or Taurus revolvers - their frames and grips are different (of course).

Quote:
I thought the idea of the 327 magnum was a really good one. The only problem I see with the round is that no major manufacturer seems to be loading the round to its full CUP potential.
You have to remember that SAAMI requires a little "safety buffer" in factory loads, to allow for in-lot variations, and lot-to-lot variations. So... if they want pressure to remain safe, with lot-to-lot variation, in, say, the 7.5" Sparrowhawk; you won't be getting absolute maximum pressures with something like the Taurus snubbie or Ruger SP101.


I believe strongly enough that the cartridge is being loaded to its full potential, that I have plans to take multiple species of Deer, a Blackbear, and Bobcat(s) with my Blackhawk, within the next 2 years. (I would have larger game on the list, but the states I hunt in exempt the cartridge, simply because it is not .35 caliber, or larger. It meets all other requirements. ) I may end up using some hand loads, but the current factory offerings would be plenty. I'm also having a really hard time saying "no" to getting another .327. These cheap Taurus 327s with a 2" barrel are very, very tempting. (I very much dislike Taurus, but think it may be worth taking the risk. )

I know I am the odd man out, but, for me, the .327 really is the next .357. (It will never replace the .357 in the firearms world. ....But it will always outnumber them in my gun safe.)


And, my last word for the night:
We do need just a couple more tough 'hunting' bullets for the .327. Hey, Swift, make me some A-Frames. Nosler, make me some Partitions. Woodleigh, give me a hydrostatically-stabilized solid.
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Old August 19, 2011, 01:29 AM   #407
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Wow...

This thread is now the 6th longest (non-sticky) thread, in the handgun section, in TFL's history.


*...Unless archived posts don't get polled for the standard sort feature. In that case, all bets are off.
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Old August 19, 2011, 08:32 AM   #408
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I think a big part of that reason is... sadly... the popularity of the .327 Federal Mag.

Someone puts up a post in it, and others see the thread title and want to add why they like or don't like the .327 Federal.

And then the "usual suspects", you & I and others who really like the .327 Federal also add more posts dissecting what they said.

Truth is, there's not a lot of places on TFL forums where there is an active discussion on the .327.

I love this thread... but for my buck, I'd like to see even 25% of the traffic on the most recent thread on handloading the .327 Federal.

That thread can be found here:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...&highlight=327
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Old August 19, 2011, 03:47 PM   #409
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I love this thread... but for my buck, I'd like to see even 25% of the traffic on the most recent thread on handloading the .327 Federal.
I think one of the biggest factors with that languishing thread, is that most reloaders don't care to step into uncharted territory, and many are scared to share their own pet loads. They run a few Google searches (TFL usually has multiple hits on the first page), pick out the data that will help them, and never return. Generally, you get a few blog-style posts with load data, our data on TFL (old thread and the new thread), and a few hits for magazine articles.

It seems like the active posters in the reloading forum are also the type of reloaders that are always chasing perfection and more data. We're never 100% satisfied. And we aren't afraid of creating our own data. Even if we have a notebook with 50 successful loads for a single cartridge, we keep chasing different powders, primers, bullets, velocities, and better accuracy. When we turn around and share that data, it can be disappointing to see nothing come from other reloaders. They "reap the benefits", but don't, "share the wealth".

I have no idea when I'll be able to test my last load development cycle (about 350 rounds of .327, 5-6 different loads; and 200-300 rounds of .32 S&W Long and .32 H&R, unpublished loads). As I mentioned before, our long-distance move has thrown a wrench into the works. It may be a while, before I can unpack the .327 ammo. ...But I'm not finished.

On the up side... I have made up my mind to buy one of the blued 2" Taurus 327s. As long as the lockup and play are acceptable, I can work with the crappy internals. A few hours with my Arkansas stones will make a huge difference. It should make a good kit gun, and will give me more data for load development. (And the wife should be pleased with the option for double-action.)
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Old August 19, 2011, 05:46 PM   #410
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I'm just not sold on what a high-pressure round is going to do in a 2-inch snub.

There's just too much to give up. As a kit gun, something to pack in a small space and use for critters or tin cans while bumping about in the wild, I'm sure it would be fun.

But one of the big draws to this round is it's (hopeful) ability as a defense cartridge... and I think when you cut the barrel down to two inches, you cut the nutz off this round.
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Old August 19, 2011, 08:05 PM   #411
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The 2" barrel does affect the performance, but it's not all that bad really.


BBL ....... Federal ....... AE 100gr ... Speer
LEN ....... 85gr............ JSP ....... 115gr
............Hydrashok .................. Gold Dot

4".......... 1462 (403)..... 1604 (571)... 1451 (538)
3".......... 1331 (334)..... 1398 (434)... 1316 (442)
2".......... 976 (180)...... 1056 (248)... 1042 (277)

Numbers in parenthesis are the muzzle-energy figures.
Source: www.ballisticsbytheinch.com

The lightweight Hydrashok suffers the most, but the rest at least live up to the .38 Special energy levels. Not bad for something that gives you an extra round. It's certainly going to be better than a .380 or .32 ACP.
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Old August 19, 2011, 09:54 PM   #412
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I think you and I are looking at this in two different ways -- nothing wrong with that.

You see the numbers and compare it to .38 Special, with an extra shot.

I see the numbers and I see how BADLY even the one inch from 3-inches to 2-inches just kills the speed of this round. (I tend to look at the 3-inch rather than the 4-inch because the SP-101 is a 3.06" barrel)

I mean, really -- the drop off isn't a little, it's like a cliff's edge.

How the round does in a real defensive shooting is pretty much all conjecture at this point because there is no street data that I know about. But from a two-inch, you are talking a bullet that is little more than HALF the weight of a 158gr .38, going under 1,000 FPS.

If anything, it compares favorably with a .32 ACP.
The .32 ACP is a round that I simply wouldn't put in to a defensive role.

For everything in the world that I really, really like about the .327 Federal Magnum -- the two inch barrel just kills that for me.
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Old August 20, 2011, 01:04 AM   #413
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Yea, the 2" barrel really neuters the cartridge.

...But I was planning on shooting .32 S&W Long and .32 H&R out of it, primarily. Its only real use with .327 loads would be for attempts at load development for the short barrel (and to see how badly other loads fall off in the 2").


Quote:
I see the numbers and I see how BADLY even the one inch from 3-inches to 2-inches just kills the speed of this round.
I see things the same way. But, I am looking at it in comparison to the Blackhawk (hey, it's what I've got). Losing 700 fps (AE 100 gr JSP), when going from the Blackhawk to the Taurus, is rather significant (41% loss).

I still like the idea of a fairly compact, double-action, 'beater' .32 revolver, though. Who knows... I may say that it is a completely worthless firearm, a year from now. Or, I may develop some decent "Short Barrel" loads for it. We'll see...
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Old August 20, 2011, 11:01 PM   #414
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Originally Posted by Sevens
I think you and I are looking at this in two different ways -- nothing wrong with that.
Yes, we are looking at it differently. You're focusing on the least potent cartridge configuration while I'm thinking that the 100/115 grain cartridges would be more appropriate in a 2-inch. To me, your view is like dismissing the .38 Special by checking the performance of a 158gr RNL in a 2-inch barrel and ignoring the +P versions.

Users have to remember that the .327 Federal was designed for a 3-inch barrel as its primary launcher (as the SP-101). It was believed that this combination would be a desirable carry gun (similar to the 3-inch K frames) by providing a little extra velocity while keeping pressures manageable.

Compromises abound in the handgun world. For decades, if we wanted a concealable .357 Magnum, your choices were limited to 2.5-inch or 3-inch barrels on K & N frames or something just as bulky (2.5, 3, Python, 2.125" Lawman). Those were bulky 6-shooters. If you wanted something smaller it was a .38 Special. Dissing (or dismissing) the .327 because it won't perform well in a 2-inch barrel is like tossing away a 2.5-inch Model 19 because it won't send a 125gr JHP downrange anywhere close to 1400 fps.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankenMauser
I still like the idea of a fairly compact, double-action, 'beater' .32 revolver, though. Who knows... I may say that it is a completely worthless firearm, a year from now. Or, I may develop some decent "Short Barrel" loads for it. We'll see...
If you guys are wedded to a 2-inch barrel, then the .327 probably isn't going to work for you ever. Not even my favorite cartridge, the .41 Magnum, is impressive out of 2-inch barrel. Except for emulating the flash and flame of Hiroshima when you set one off.

I'd not willingly take the .32 ACP or .32 Long as a primary carry gun. The J-frame .32 Longs can tolerate some hot rodding that will get you .32 H&R like performance. But not .327 performance. The 2-inch is too much of a compromise.
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Old August 20, 2011, 11:28 PM   #415
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I absolutely see your point Bill, and I saw it even before your explanation...
But the drop off from 3-inch to 2-inch is staggering in any factory load.

Perhaps some creative work at the load bench can improve what happens from a two-inch tube. Maybe some lucky guy with a REALLY slim flash gap will gain a few FPS.

Either way, I'm left with a tiny bullet that isn't even going fast. In it's most hardcore load, it's like a light 9mm bullet, without even the .356" of the 9mm, which most of us agree isn't large.

Bullet energy ain't everything, but it's got to be something and your best 2-inch load can't even get to three hundred. At this point, it's a BUG, it's no longer a viable primary, IMO.

The high pressure round needs room to work.

I'm a huge fan of the .327, but if I were god of all things .327, I would allow a two-inch out of any gun factory. It would soil the good name of my cartridge.

(of course, if I were god of all things .327, I would provide a LOT of cheap brass, a huge selection of component slugs with large inventory, a slew of load data and more factory loads from more manufacturers than you could count, and that's not even addressing how many different cool guns you'd see being churned out by the hardware builders.)

(...and not one of them with less than a 3-inch barrel...)
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Old August 20, 2011, 11:50 PM   #416
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(of course, if I were god of all things .327, I would provide a LOT of cheap brass, a huge selection of component slugs with large inventory, a slew of load data and more factory loads from more manufacturers than you could count, and that's not even addressing how many different cool guns you'd see being churned out by the hardware builders.)
You've got my vote

I love my SP101, even if others see it as useless.

The drop in velocites from Franken's 5 1/2" Blackhawk (his wife's really) vs. my 3" SP101 are pretty noticable, so it will be interesting to compare his 2" Taurus with the data we already know for the two Rugers.
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Old August 21, 2011, 01:13 AM   #417
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I'd not willingly take the .32 ACP or .32 Long as a primary carry gun. The J-frame .32 Longs can tolerate some hot rodding that will get you .32 H&R like performance. But not .327 performance. The 2-inch is too much of a compromise.
The Taurus 2" would be more of a kit gun and plinking gun, than a primary carry gun (for me). I already have a .38 +P J-frame, that I would trust far more than the Taurus. And, when I can launch a 125-158 gr bullet at the same speed as an 85-100 grain bullet... I'll take the bigger one. (For me, the extra round doesn't matter.)

I've been cross-posting this photo far too much, lately... (S&W 642-2 LS and 7.5" Super Blackhawk)
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Old August 21, 2011, 08:47 PM   #418
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Originally Posted by sevens
Perhaps some creative work at the load bench can improve what happens from a two-inch tube. Maybe some lucky guy with a REALLY slim flash gap will gain a few FPS.

Either way, I'm left with a tiny bullet that isn't even going fast. In it's most hardcore load, it's like a light 9mm bullet, without even the .356" of the 9mm, which most of us agree isn't large.

Bullet energy ain't everything, but it's got to be something and your best 2-inch load can't even get to three hundred. At this point, it's a BUG, it's no longer a viable primary, IMO.

The high pressure round needs room to work.
Let's step back and think about this for a second.
You said it's like "a light 9mm bullet, without even the .356" of the 9mm..."

I think it's pretty incredible that they managed to pack that kind of performance into a .312" diameter projectile. The 100gr .327 gets over 400 ft-lbs which is better than quite a few 9mm loads. Most .38 Special standard velocity loads are in the low 200's and even the .38 +P seldom gets to 300, especially in a snubby. Yet how many thousands of people feel adequately armed with a .38 Special? Apparently FrankenMauser feels a 125gr .38 +P at 976 fps (264 ft-lbs) is plenty adequate.

It's especially pleasing to me that the .327 enters into the .357 Magnum's territory out of a 4-inch barrel (apples to apples here, in comparing performance in 4-inch guns).

I'm a big fan of the big bullet theory -- people stop doing bad things sooner when you poke big holes in them. The 10mm, .41, .45 and .44 Special are some of my favorite rounds.

While I also have .38/.357's and 9mm's, for whatever reason, I'm fond of the .32 caliber revolver rounds. I'd dearly love S&W to re-issue the tack-driving Model 16 chambered for .327 Federal (with the "magnum underlug of the Model 19 to be consistent).

For the person who only owns one gun, the .327 is not a bad choice as long as the barrel is 3 inches or longer. There is some versatility there between all the cartridges & loads available to it and likely more to come.
(Note: If anyone starts blathering about the .38 Special or 9mm having more versatility in loads, I'll point out it has a 100 year head start!)
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Old August 21, 2011, 09:14 PM   #419
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Originally Posted by Frankenmauser
The Taurus 2" would be more of a kit gun and plinking gun, than a primary carry gun (for me). I already have a .38 +P J-frame, that I would trust far more than the Taurus. And, when I can launch a 125-158 gr bullet at the same speed as an 85-100 grain bullet... I'll take the bigger one. (For me, the extra round doesn't matter.)
First off -- a nice pair of revolvers.
Certainly if we are talking equal velocities the heavier bullet tends to do a better job. But what I see is the 115gr Speer Gold Dot's performance as very good. At 1042 fps from a 2" it's barely subsonic. That's better than most .38 +P from a snubby. I expect the .32 caliber Gold Dot to be as good as their .38/9mm products too, so that means high reliability, even at lower speeds.

Fortunately, in the .327, the performance of the 100-115gr ammo is still quite good compared to .38 special out of a 2-inch. Looking at the .38 Special data at Ballistics By The Inch, the Speer 135gr GDHP launches from a 642 at 897 fps (241 ft-lbs) and the 100+grain .327's are comparable in their energy output (248 & 277 ft-lbs). Thus, we have diameter as the major difference.
If the extra round isn't a sufficient reason for you, so be it. It provides others with a certain "comfort level".

If you want to make the argument that the bigger diameter bullet is always going to be superior, then I'll take a bigger & heavier bullet at 750 fps from my nightstand companion.


This snubby fires those 230gr Hydrashok +P at an honest 827 fps out of a 2 5/8" barrel (349 ft-lbs)
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Old August 21, 2011, 10:37 PM   #420
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Yet how many thousands of people feel adequately armed with a .38 Special?
These days, there seems to be many MORE thousands of people who feel adequately armed with 85 to 100 grain .380's from pistols smaller than the crap I took this morning.

I'm not one of them.

I applaud the folks that are armed -- the more, the better. But a NAA mini revolver in .22 Mag or a P3AT or a 2-inch .327 are not, IMO, enough effort.
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Old August 22, 2011, 02:28 AM   #421
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If you want to make the argument that the bigger diameter bullet is always going to be superior, then I'll take a bigger & heavier bullet at 750 fps from my nightstand companion.
Those Hydra-Shoks are sexy.
I was only referring to that single comparison, for "bigger is better". I try to take things on a case-by-case basis. There is definitely something to be said for projectile diameter, but velocity can work its own magic. And, for SD, everything depends on the bullet. I consider a small bullet that expands properly, to be superior to a large bullet that fails. But, we all have our own opinions.

...Just like the extra round. I understand it's a big deal to some people, and respect that. I'm just indifferent, for my own use. (It comes from my personal philosophy for concealed carry and home defense, which would take far too long to explain.)


Quote:
These days, there seems to be many MORE thousands of people who feel adequately armed with 85 to 100 grain .380's from pistols smaller than the crap I took this morning.
I was planning on picking up a Sig P238HD as my primary carry, until the 642 fell into my lap (it was also supposed to be a permanent replacement for the Taurus PT-38 I can't get rid of). I'm one of those .380 people. ...But I'm also a skinny guy, that finds it difficult to conceal anything bigger than a compact .380 or J-frame (though some of the newer 9mm compacts are appealing). However, I would consider .327 out of a 2" snubbie to be a definite step up from .380 in the P238.



It seems that we all agree, for the most part:
With currently available ammunition; the wonderful .327 Federal needs a barrel of 3" or better. Anything less, and it's a waste of the cartridge. (Though possibly still an improvement over other options.)
Correct?
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Old August 22, 2011, 08:12 AM   #422
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I can go with that. Also, I can get on board with the idea of a really small kit gun, something that is taking up the footprint of a .22 caliber revolver, but spitting out .32 cal slugs at a decent clip. NOT for human or predator defense, but for bustin' rocks and clods of dirt. Something small enough to be dropped in a tackle box with the worms.

Even so... I'm guessing that the noise level of a .327 from a 2-inch barrel is pretty nasty.
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Old August 22, 2011, 08:32 PM   #423
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I'm not sure what happened....

I went to the only store in town that could get the last Taurus 2" from the only distributor claiming to have ONE left.

My wallet got emptied.
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Old August 22, 2011, 08:36 PM   #424
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....Because the Blackhawk met a long-lost sibling.




It's 5 times the revolver the Taurus would have been.

With nearly every handgun Ruger makes, I find the factory grips to be perfectly comfortable and useful. In this case... I'll be looking for replacements. I just don't like them.

I think the wife will love it. Maybe she'll stop claiming the Blackhawk as her own, if I find some pretty grips for the GP.

Maybe the kit gun will show up in some other form, in the future...


The happy Ruger family:

Left side, top to bottom: 7.5" Super Blackhawk, .44 Mag; 6.5" Blackhawk, .41 Mag; 4" GP100, .357 Mag.
Right side, top to bottom: 5.5" Blackhawk, .327 Fed; 4" GP100, .327 Fed; 3" SP101, .327 Fed.
It'll look even better, when planned additions round out the family: Stainless Bearcat. Stainless Single Six (Single Ten, if they get rid of the horrible sights).
(A few of them belong to another member. )
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Old August 23, 2011, 02:41 AM   #425
Sevens
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Join Date: July 28, 2007
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 8,578
COOL!
I think the GP-100 is the least loved of all three Ruger .327's.
It's like we never hear of anyone who's got one.

Very slick.

Gotta say I don't care for the grips, either. (but I have odd tastes in grips, it seems... MANY of my guns are adorned with the hottest grips of the 1980s -- the Pachmayr grips. Lotsa people h-a-t-e 'em!)
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Attention Brass rats and other reloaders: I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.
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