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Old August 30, 1999, 11:57 AM   #26
Skorzeny
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By "catch," I assume that you mean catch wrestling? Have you ever heard of a guy named Tony Cechinne (sp?)?

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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

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Old September 6, 1999, 06:16 AM   #27
Snickersnee
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I have heard the name, I think, but I'm not sure who he is.

I hear catch wrestling is becoming popular. I didn't even know that I knew catch until pretty recently. I learned from a friend of the family who was a small time pro/amateur/whatever back in the old days, but we just called it wrestling.

I was swapping some e-mail with a guy from another forum who made some observation that rang a bell, I did some quick checks and was quite suprised really. I don't know much about the scene, it's just something I happened to pick up in my zany misadventures.

But after I get a few of my other projects cleared away, I'm thinking about seeing what everybody else is doing, and especialy looking for training halls/partners.
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Old September 7, 1999, 07:10 PM   #28
awl556
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Snickersnee, Could you explain El Cuchillo. Are you simply refering to the knife or a particular system? If so, do you have a info source? Thanks
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Old September 8, 1999, 01:28 AM   #29
Snickersnee
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El Cuchillo is a Spanish knife art that also pops up in it's former colonies and was an influence on American knifework.

It, like most Western arts, is not as rigid as people expect when they think of martial arts. There are certain principles, concepts, movements and such that form it's base, but most every practioner tailor's his style to suit his needs and abilities. More ecclectic if you will. Think about the familial styles of FMA for example, incedentaly a former Spanish colony... Forget I said that. It REALLY ****** off FMA-er's.

Anyway, James Keating's ABC(American Blade Concepts) series have an El Cuchillo flavor; and are available at www.combattech.com

If you're looking for a historical manual, try Manual del Baratero, O Arte de Manejar La Navaja, El Cuchillo, Y La Tijera De Los Jitanos, dating from 1849, if you can read Spanish that is. Even it's reprints are out of print, but you can get an authorized photocopy from www.barataria.com , it's not an item they regularly stock, so you have to e-mail them with a request.

www.thehaca.com Go to their Reading and Research page, and then online manuals.

They should be getting some Marozzo up soon too, and he teaches some dagger work. Not El Cuchillo in the strictest sense, but in the same veign.

[This message has been edited by Snickersnee (edited October 12, 1999).]
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Old September 15, 1999, 05:15 AM   #30
Byron Quick
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Skorzeny,

"Lastly, I personally think that if one had to learn one martial art for civilian self-defense, the "best" one is Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu/Vale Tudo (the "anything goes" version of BJJ)."


"I agree that BJJ is not the be-all, end-all of martial arts and that it is not the "ultimate" martial art good for all situations, but I tend to believe that it is the most effective one-on-one, unarmed combat system that truly requires (and takes advantage of) superior skill than brute strength"

Skorzeny,

I have only seen BJJ in UFC videos and would agree with you on the second quote.

I've been in a lot of fights, unfortunately. My first truly serious fight was at fifteen when I was attacked by an adult. Choked him unconscious with a jujutsu choke.

However, most of the serious fights I have seen or participated in didn't have the luxury of one on one or unarmed. The caveat that it is the best one on one and unarmed is a very, very serious flaw.

When I am in situations where I think fighting may occur I bring armed friends. I bring weapons to brunch. Catching me alone and unarmed outside of the dojo is going to be quite a trick. I don't really care who defeats me in a dojo or with what as long as I learn something.

I've fought four opponents successfully on two occasions- real fights not dojo. I've fought eight successfully but that was a special case: they were unarmed, I had a three foot sawed off shovel handle and made a preemptive strike. I would have been stomped real good in those three fights with BJJ.

While I agree that BJJ is probably supreme in one on one with a disarmed opponent, I cannot agree with your suggestion that it is the best for the average person. Based on the fights I have been in and the fights I have seen, BJJ is a recipe for disaster for the fight on the street. Basically if someone takes my friend down with BJJ, I'm going to kick their head in.
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Old September 17, 1999, 12:14 PM   #31
Rocco
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Well, being a Brazilian myself, I confess to reading through this whole debate with great attention.

Although I don't feel like I have anything worthy to add to the posts in terms of bare-handed bodily weaponry, but it came to my mind that over here there's a quite strong Krav-Maga movement, school, or whatever name there's to it.

In fact, Krav-Maga has been introduced and taught to several LE forces throughout the land these past few years, up to and including the President's own security teams.

Fully acknowledging beforehand that I do not actually know nor purport to know anything even near RKI-status in terms of physical martial arts skills, I'd like to hear your opinions on Krav-Maga.

Is it a viable alternative for someone with "rugby-bust" knees and 150 kilos of mass? Perhaps it's fit to volunteer that the above mentioned "someone" is me.

TIA,

Rocco

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Old September 24, 2005, 11:45 PM   #32
Brian@ITC
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I think that if you can find one that is well rounded and the school trains realistically you would be off to a good start. In that I mean an “art” that teaches striking, grappling, takedowns, ground fighting, as well as weapons training.

Personally, I take taijutsu which is the fighting art of the ninja and we cover practically every aspect of “self-defense”. I am confident with my taijutsu skills, however, I train in other arts (BJJ, judo to name a few) simply to learn their approach to throws, wrist locks, and ground fighting. Is there an ultimate martial art… I believe there are some flaws with most arts, but I have to say with my personal experience I will choose taijutsu as my ultimate art.

Now, not all “Ninjutsu” schools are the same! But I am NOT about to get into a political ******* match. All I can tell you is who I will and won’t train with and the “why” is going to remain a mystery. But, I will tell you this, I am VERY picky about who I will train with and so should you!!!

Good luck in your search!!!
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Old September 25, 2005, 12:20 AM   #33
Harley Quinn
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BB Kali, FMA, JKD, Good stuff

Hi,
I like the FMA myself. One of the best I have studied under is Rick Faye.
He is part of the Kali Group of Dan Inosanto. Dan Inosanto is a legend in his
own time 70 and still going strong.
I also like Gokor and Gene Le Bell, and Larry Hartsell for the grappling gig. Richard Bustillo is very good and a real nice person, they all are. IMB is Richards location in Torrance CA.

The 'Armenian Assassin' is Gokor he is very good, Sambo is his specialty. He and Gene Le Bell and Larry Hartsell teach out of Gokors studio in the Silver Lake district of Los Angeles CA.

Rick Faye has Filipino Boxing, Sticks, American Boxing, Muay Thai and JKD along with the grappling. Good stuff. He heads the Minnesota Kali Group.

Anthony Davis is also good, he teaches Angel Cabales Escrima, Kajukenbo and American Boxing, a good combination.

I think the main thing is to be in good physcial condition and the rest is technique and lots of time doing it. If you work hard at any of it you will be better than most. I don't care what martial art it is, the person is who makes the difference.

Harley
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Old September 25, 2005, 10:24 PM   #34
coolridelude
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i was a brown belt in tang soo do but if can fight blackbelts. i just did not go for my test for a blackbelt because in texas you have to register your hands. (it is not a chuck norris system) my instructor is a 4 degree in tsd and did not learn it form chuck. he learned it in Korea . now i am going to learn boxing. i think boxing is a must or kickboxing. need to be fast with the hands also.
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Old September 26, 2005, 12:05 AM   #35
blackmind
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I don't want to weigh in heavily here, as I have only limited- and long-ago experience in martial arts (some shorin-ryu karate and some Americanized jujitsu), but I am surprised that no one has mentioned KRAV MAGA, which (I thought) had earned respect as a no-nonsense, defend-yourself-on-the-street "style."

My brother has taken some instruction in it up on Nantucket, but we haven't discussed the techniques much.

Any commentary on Krav Maga? Anyone experienced with it?

-blackmind
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Old September 26, 2005, 12:17 PM   #36
Derius_T
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Well, all this is just my opinion, as I am not any kind of professional anything.

I have had military training in hand to hand combat techniques, and a bit of several types of martial arts instruction. (Very limited) Most of my fighting experience in my youth was from bouncing in bars, and personal security for uhhmmm.....escort services. Ahem.

That being said, I never put much stock in martial arts alone. Not to say they are not extremely effective in some instances, but in most close quarters situations they never worked very good for me. I have seen ALOT of people fight, and most people are lucky not to hurt THEMSELVES in the process. It is truely amazing just how little most people can actually FIGHT.

I found that in close quarters, the most simple, direct techniques were the best. Alot of guys like to beat their chests, throw out their arms, and get up in each others faces to show off or try to punk each other out. A very swift hard knee to the groin, a shot to the throat, or even a very unexpected hard SLAP into someones face will disorient them and suprise them long enough to deal a more devistating blow.

The only rule of fighting outside competition, is that THERE ARE NO RULES.

A good strong shot to the solar plexus area will make even the toughest guy a little weak, when he can't breathe.

Remember, if he can't SEE he can't fight well. If he can't BREATHE he can't fight well. And if his mobility is hampered he can't fight well.

All that other 'fancy' crap is for the movies.
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Old September 27, 2005, 01:40 PM   #37
sreising
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Yeah...so...I'll get on this one too...

For what it's worth, I don't particularly like the stylization of the Gracies work. I tend to like more traditional formats. But that's just a little lady's opinion.

Also, to me, it's not jsut the type of art that one "learns", I whole-heartedly believe the "best" style to use is individualized to the body type. What may be deadly to use for one, may be a here-let-me-stub-your-toe-for-you for another.

I have to disagree that Aikido is useless in the "field". Not the various defensive actions, but the fluidity of the form makes for better ingraination of balance and control. Believe me, I was a semi-professional dancer for over 20 years (yes without the pole get your mind out of the ditch) and I can distinctly say that I personally trained plenty of "persons" involved in other art forms, but did not have to work as hard with TC, TKD, and Aikido.

I also agree that the USMC's LINES is a great start. it's a great combo of basic martial artforms, hand-to-hand, and S.D. But, don't go looking for the average day Joe to train you (even if they say the "know" it). However, if it is of interest, it's pretty easy to find a current or former belted Marine to show you a few "tricks".

All in all, I believe what is best is what each individual person feels comfortable with, both mind and body. If it doesn't feel right, don't do it...as the old saying goes.



Shan
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Old September 27, 2005, 02:13 PM   #38
ReconDoc242
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in my opinion

I wanted to give you guys my opinion, but I will give you some background on myself. I have been a professional MMA fighter for about 5yrs and have established a decent record(13-0-1). I have been invlved in martial arts for the past 20 years. I have trained with many different styles and instructors in the U.S., Ecuador, Phillipines, Japan, Israel, Brazil, Korea, Russia, and Holland. I also served as a member of Naval Special Warfare for 5 yrs and learned various systems. After being exposed to various systems/styles I can truly say, that it is not about the system, it is about the technique and how it works for you. After my 20 years training, i can truly say I only use about a dozen techniques. The countless rest I have found either tactically useless to me. So I recommend explore as many systems as you can and find what ever works best for you.(a word of warning, avoid flowerly or difficult moves, in real combat it is best to keep it simple and quick)
-Doc
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Old September 27, 2005, 02:28 PM   #39
npcolin
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I take anything that I come across and I put my whole heart into it. Then I analyze what works best for me in terms of self defense and discard the non-sense stuff.
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Old September 27, 2005, 02:44 PM   #40
leadcounsel
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If you have the time and money to commit, I think that the best fighting styles mix pratical "hard" and "soft" arts. Everyone needs to know how to throw and block punches and kicks. Kickboxing is great for this. However, everyone also needs to know how to grapple because that's where fights are generally won or lost (unless you cannot block a punch and get KO'd). For grappling, look to Jujitsu or Judo. You will learn throws, how to fall without getting as hurt, and how to choke someone effectively. Also, you will want to study pressure points, which take very little strength but are very effective.
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Old September 27, 2005, 04:30 PM   #41
kungfucowboy
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In my opinion the teacher you have will make a big difference, possibly bigger than the art. For quick learning of self defense i would stay away from aikido, i personally love training it and it does become an effective means of self defense after you have deveolped the proper balance timing and relaxed strength needed, but thoose can be (very) difficult to learn.
I personally am fond of Wing Tsun. it is simple and fairly quick to become proficeint with if you practice enough. It is fairly close range and teaches you a range that most people are uncofortable with, too close in for aikiodo,karate, ect. to far for grapplers. the main problem is it takes a while to genrate power from WT strikes
I have just started BJJ wich is good but(sofar) doesn't take into account bitting and eygougeing wich i think are one of the main weaknesses of ground grappling.
theese are the main arts i have had personal experiense with. from other stuff i have seen, ritualised martialarts (like traditional shaolin kungfu, ba qua, hs'ing yi ) will take a long time to become effective. Boxing, kickboxing, muay thai seem to take much much more stamina and toughness. and point style/ olympic karate or TKD i have no faith in. (note this is all my very biased personal opinions)
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