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Old April 18, 2011, 12:53 AM   #26
moose_nukelz
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We have done training to see at what distance we could get a shot off from the holster when someone charges with a knife using airsoft and rubber training knifes. Less than 20 feet and the guy with the knife won, 20-30 feet was about half and half and over 30 feet we were able to draw and get a shot on target.
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Old April 19, 2011, 10:58 AM   #27
threegun
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Stonewall50, I understand your concern over target recognition. I agree that distinguishing between good guy and bad guy is extremely important. I just feel that the odds of needing this skill are much much lower than say the odds of needing to defend against a charging knife attack. Hence I would devote much much more practice time on the Tueller drill for example.
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Old April 19, 2011, 01:14 PM   #28
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I understand your concern over target recognition. I agree that distinguishing between good guy and bad guy is extremely important. I just feel that the odds of needing this skill are much much lower than say the odds of needing to defend against a charging knife attack. Hence I would devote much much more practice time on the Tueller drill for example.
Im not sure I see any difference between the two here.

Either way, you still have to ID that someone running to you does in fact have a knife (or gun, or what ever), and if hes amongst a number of people also running at or around you, who dont, you have to make a lot of instant decisions and deal with other things at the same time.

Threat assessment and ID is just a basic part of all this, and if youre carrying a gun, regardless of your purpose, its something you need to be able to do, especially under stress. One on one, or one on some.

Tunnel vision is hard enough to deal with, practicing to do so, just makes things worse. Working on anything that helps you stay in the big picture, especially when your brain is screaming to focus on one thing, is much more useful than constantly practicing one or two things of a more narrow scope, over and over.

One thing here with Tueller, since everyone is so caught up in its time space continuum thing, are you also practiced in your grappling (and since a knife is involved, bleeding ) skills to be able to deal with it if your timing is off? I know we're all gun people, but sometimes the gun "isnt" always the answer to the question, or at least, not immediately. Most of the "tests", assume the gun is, or will be the solution to the problem. Actually shooting/cutting each other, is really the only way to find out. Airsoft and a "chalked blade" help here too.
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Old April 19, 2011, 07:53 PM   #29
threegun
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Im not sure I see any difference between the two here
We carry concealed. We draw when we see a threat. This means that we have already had to acknowledge a threat just to be legal to pull much less fire. Unlike a LE officer who must take trouble head on.

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Threat assessment and ID is just a basic part of all this, and if youre carrying a gun, regardless of your purpose, its something you need to be able to do, especially under stress. One on one, or one on some.
For the civilian its more Situational Awareness than a true shoot don't shoot target selection like cops do. My SA identifies a potential threat. If the threat has the ability, opportunity, and intent to cause me death of grave bodily injury it gets a preventative action.

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One thing here with Tueller, since everyone is so caught up in its time space continuum thing, are you also practiced in your grappling (and since a knife is involved, bleeding ) skills to be able to deal with it if your timing is off?
Short answer is no. Long answer not in a very long time. My hand to hand has had to be set aside due to illness recently. I'm working things out but will probably not get back into hand 2 hand. Just to easy to get hurt nowadays and my family needs my pay check. So while I have the knowledge I lack the necessary practice to deal with a knife attack unarmed. If the guy knows how to use the knife all but the very best trained are in trouble anyway.
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Old April 19, 2011, 08:33 PM   #30
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We carry concealed. We draw when we see a threat. This means that we have already had to acknowledge a threat just to be legal to pull much less fire. Unlike a LE officer who must take trouble head on.
I still dont see any meaningful difference. Trouble is trouble, and if you have to deal with it, then you have to deal with it.

The threat may not be initially visible, but still fairly obvious or apparent, and you dont have to see it to have your gun out. I'll err on the side of breaking "the rules" if I feel it warrants it. Better to be wrong and deal with that, than to be right and be behind the curve. Besides, you can still be discreet with the gun upholstered if you need to be.

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For the civilian its more Situational Awareness than a true shoot don't shoot target selection like cops do.
Call it what you want, you still may have one from column A or one from column B, or even the possibility of one or more of each, all at the same time. Decisions still have to be made as things move along. In reality, everyone there is a shoot/dont shoot target at some point, no matter what.

I think we're basically on the same page here, its just we "see" things differently. Your more focused on certain things, and Im looking at it in a broader sense. The goal is the same, win at all costs, and hopefully youve had some varied forethought, and can keep the "costs" to a minimum. Better yet, just make the other guy pay.
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