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Old April 4, 1999, 08:26 PM   #1
Mark M33
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You are in a restaurant with your weapon, you did not intend to carry your gun to a place that serves alcohol, illegal in most most states, but you were going to eat and then you are out of there. While waiting for your food, a perp enters and takes a gun out of his jacket, he announces a robbery. What do you do?M33
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Old April 4, 1999, 09:13 PM   #2
SB
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You pull out your knife....

As a good guy, the gun should have been left behind in the first place. Way too much legal hell to go through if the gun comes into play. Beyond that, how one responds really depends on the situation. An adequate reply is not possible without more information.

This thread reminds me of Pulp Fiction....

$.02

[This message has been edited by SB (edited April 04, 1999).]
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Old April 4, 1999, 09:28 PM   #3
Rob Pincus
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The fact that Alcohol is being served would be the last thing I would consider. It is not a tactical concern.. my objective as an off duty LEO and an armed citizen would be governed by the following:

#1. everyone's safety
#2. the stopping of the crime
#3. the stopping of the criminal (capture/other)

Far distant #4. Legal ramifications

(this is still valid for me to answer as an armed citizen as I spend a great deal of time out of my own jurisdiction to enforce the law)
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Old April 4, 1999, 11:52 PM   #4
Spectre
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2nd amendment protects my uninfringed right to have and carry weapons. I can define "infringe".

Personal safety of any friends/family is the top priority. Whether my pistola was produced and/or used would depend on many factors, including the apparent mental state of the robber, caliber and action style of PDF, distance, number of incidentals (friendlies) present, etc.

As I am not LEO, it is not my concern to hold criminals. Safeguarding my "circle of friends" (everyone ) is. Elimation of threat will often be the best way to ensure that protection.

[This message has been edited by Spectre (edited April 05, 1999).]
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Old April 5, 1999, 08:59 AM   #5
Rob Pincus
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Notice that "other" in item #3, Spectre ??

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Old April 5, 1999, 10:41 AM   #6
Jeff Thomas
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Gentlemen, with all due respect, we're not making much progress on this. And, it is a question I have considered lately myself, so I am truly interested in experienced opinions here.

Let's add a few more assumptions to Mark's hypothetical. The restaurant is reasonably full, you're seated near the cashier, at the counter, and the BG has a gun pointed at the waitress behind the counter. She stands near the cash register. He seems nervous and his finger is on the trigger. He's glancing around the room as he tells her to hurry up and get the cash out of the drawer. There are customers either standing or seated on the side of the BG away from you - that is, any stray or penetrating rounds would present a clear danger to others.

Now what?

My ignorant guess (based upon my current, very limited training): if I can discreetly do it, I place my hand on my gun and prepare to draw and fire only if he makes a clear move to fire his gun. I realize that means the waitress may die before I can take action. However, under the circumstances it seems foolish to provoke him when there is so much danger of injuring or killing innocent bystanders. If he fired I would try to drop to my knees and fire in an angle upwards to minimize danger to the others. Of course, this is much easier to consider now, in safety and comfort, than it would be then.

I also don't see the logic of considering the legality (of being in the wrong place with my gun) at the time of the crime. If necessary, and if I felt confident with my skill and circumstances, I believe I would have a moral obligation to save life in such a circumstance.

We have many experienced TFL members, including a multitude of LEO's and former LEO's. What is a citizen's proper response in such a difficult situation?

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Old April 5, 1999, 11:03 AM   #7
jimc
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let him walk out the door. the distance between you and him is to close to engage in any type of response w/out a fatal or serious gunshot to either you or an innocent bystander. in an instance where the bg is that nervous either from stress or the influence of some substance, any form of movement may seem to him to be antagonistic. and who know's if there is anyone else that is armed or an off duty or plainclothes cop in there either.
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Old April 5, 1999, 11:05 AM   #8
jimc
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let him walk out the door. the distance between you and him is to close to engage in any type of response w/out a fatal or serious gunshot to either you or an innocent bystander. in an instance where the bg is that nervous either from stress or the influence of some substance, any form of movement may seem to him to be antagonistic. and who know's if there is anyone else that is armed or an off duty or plainclothes cop in there either.
onne other thing nothing personal however WEAPON has a negative connotation to all the anti's out there.i found calling it a firearm throw's them off balance
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Old April 5, 1999, 11:18 AM   #9
cornered rat
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recguns.com used to have a feature called The Red Zone
http://www.recguns.com/TRZ.html
Would anyone here care to revive the concept...it would make for an informative discussion of topics like this.

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http://ddb.com/RKBA Updated March 20

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Old April 5, 1999, 01:09 PM   #10
James K
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If you are not a LEO, your concern is not with stopping the crime or arresting the perp.

If you are carrying with a CCW license, you are limited by law to self-defense, which means that you may defend yourself and your family against an immediate threat of death or serious injury. (I would probably defend an innocent person regardless, and take my chances.) In doing so, I would not worry overmuch about the liquor issue.

Unless the perp fires, you sit tight and let him walk. If you cut loose you may turn a robbery into a massacre and then you will be responsible, and be held responsible, for the deaths or injuries that result.

A CCW does not give you police powers or allow you to take police action. Period.

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Old April 5, 1999, 01:15 PM   #11
James K
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BTW, I wonder if LEOs responding on this kind of issue could identify themselves as such. Problem is that a poster who is an LEO will talk about apprehending a criminal or stopping a crime, and some folks with CCW licenses think they are authorized to do things like that. To avoid confusion, would be nice to know who is an LEO so we understand better where coming from.
Thanks.
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Old April 6, 1999, 12:36 AM   #12
Art Eatman
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Rep. Susanna Gratia-Hupp of the Texas Legislature saw her parents killed in the cafeteria massacre at Killeen. In order to obey the law as it existed before we got a Concealed Handgun License system in Texas, she had left her pistol in her car.

Granted that the perp crashed his truck through the plate-glass window, and jumped out shooting, but I'd bet that CHL or no CHL, she will lose no more family members...

Unless it's quite obvious that our hypothetical perp is not going to shoot, or that my action could readily harm some Good Guy, I'd have to follow my own moral code about protecting others as well as myself, and damn the technicalities. "April Fool, Bleep-bleep."

It ain't easy...
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Old April 6, 1999, 10:30 AM   #13
David Wright
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IMHO,let him have the money, and move on...
Money is always easier to replace than the alternatives. If your only tool is a hammer, all problems begin to appear to be nails.(
Sometimes doing nothing IS the right move.

After that, be an accurate witness for the LEO's.
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Old April 6, 1999, 10:03 PM   #14
Mark M33
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I agree with doing nothing if the BG walks away, if he starts shooting, then the weapon is used to stop the threat. We also have to be aware if there is another BG, and a good cover. Thanks guys, good learning experience.:4M33
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Old April 7, 1999, 11:52 AM   #15
Byron Quick
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I let a BG walk out of a situation where he had threatened my life. Allowing him to live caused no end of grief to his next victim. Something to think about.
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Old April 7, 1999, 02:26 PM   #16
James K
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Let's put the shoe on the other foot. You are having dinner with your wife when a BG sticks up the cashier. Some one (LEO or not)at another table pulls out a gun and blasts away, putting a .40 Corbon through your wife's heart.

Anyone want to tell me how he was right and you will gladly help coach him to improve his marksmanship?
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Old April 7, 1999, 10:40 PM   #17
Art Eatman
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Mr. Keenan, Sir, you're absolutely right. My understanding of Texas law is that were I to hit a good guy, I'm in deep doodoo. If I kill an innocent bystander, it's a murder charge on me.

I've always followed the rule that if you can't be sure of your hit, don't shoot. Doesn't matter if it's Bambi or Badguy...
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Old April 7, 1999, 11:51 PM   #18
Dennis
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Right on, Art! I don't think any of us would be so dumb as to start a firefight in a crowded restaurant. Let the BG take the money and flee.

Just get a good description of the BG so the police have something to work with; including (if it is safe to do so) a description of accomplices, vehicles, etc.

If he begins shooting people, a la Killeen, anyone has the right in Texas to use force or deadly force to prevent or stop the unlawful commission of deadly force. (OK, OK, don't start with the "what if the BG is a LEO?" arguments.)

But, "justified" does not mean "required" (to use force or deadly force).

It is usually best to stay out of the fray. What if the BG has unknown partners in the crowd? What if the off-duty 21 y/o deputy constable and/or a poorly trained, hypercop wannabe see you with a gun and think you are the BGs buddy?

The possibility of unwarranted death, injury, property damage, criminal charges, civil suits, etc. is just too great unless the BG starts shooting.

Frankly, even if BG shoots one person, the crowd is still there, your other problems still exist, etc. I probably would not open fire until my family, friends, or I were under the immediate threat of imminent serious bodily injury or death; to BG begins to assassinate people.

If he begins shooting a number of people, and I have a clear (safe) shot and those I am responsible for are safe, then I'll Mozambique him and BG will mean "Been Greased".

BTW, I'm only talking about non-LEOs. LEOs have their own rules, customs, policies, obligations, etc.

As y'all pointed out, if your use of force negligently injures an innocent party, immediately check both shoes -- you done stepped in it, big and bad.

For Texans, I recommend a careful reading of the Penal Code, especially chapter nine.
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Old April 8, 1999, 10:33 AM   #19
James K
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Thanks, folks. I see too many people on this site who seem to have carried CCW to both absurdity and extreme danger. One guy says he carries two big Glocks, two little Glocks, two extra mags each, two bowie knives, etc., etc. (Don't ask me how he can walk, ask him.) This macho type would probably blast away with both hands at anything or anyone for any reason. He is the kind of person the anti CCW people just love to portray as being representative of us.

Any time deadly force is used, there is a threat to innocent persons, including the user of the force. It is best used, by LEOs or citizens, with extreme care. Even the killing of the bad guy in a clear case of self defense does not automatically result in the killer being cleared, even if a LEO.
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Old April 9, 1999, 05:02 PM   #20
SB
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There seems to be a bigger issue at work here, one that I am not adequately prepared to answer: What is the strategic role of the armed citizen? Whatever the exact answer the general perception is, I'm sure it would be proactive and pro-safety.

Narrowing down to just this one scenario, and assuming that the scenario details are all true, I agree that the best thing to do is to let it go. What ever the robber would take is only a drop in the bucket next to the human lives that would be at stake in such a volatile scenario.

Again, I still think that without knowing more details, this scenario would be hard to respond to. Just the same, there are a few constants that I would most likely do in such a situation. 1. I would take cover. 2. I would do everything I can to contact the police. 3. I would only fight if lives are clearly being endangered.

Red Zone scenarios. Combat Hangdun magazine has something very similar to that and it's actually quite a lot of fun playing it out. This is just me, but if anyone plans to revive such a thing, diagrams are a must. Straight text is a waste of time.
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Old April 9, 1999, 09:11 PM   #21
Art Eatman
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SB: No great argument with your viewpoint, but a bit of a "Devil's Advocate" position with respect to your second paragraph: Letting him go means an armed bad guy still "out there". Texas law does not demand you be facing a perp if you shoot him, if you "have reason to believe he poses a further threat to the community", or words to that effect. (It's in Vernon's Annotated Civil Statutes [V.A.C.S.] for Texas.)

Granted an anti-gun DA might rain on your parade, and the legal expenses might go outta sight, but I guess I'm talking about "The Law", here, not "reality"...

I agree with V.A.C.S. When you take up a weapon against society, you just declared "Open Season" on yourself.

Where I have no quibble with you whatsoever is your view that it is a very complex subject, requiring rational thought. And pro-safety is paramount.

Best regards, Art
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Old April 9, 1999, 09:43 PM   #22
James K
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Yes, talking over various scenarios, and playing the games in the magazines is a lot of fun.

WAKE UP!

If you choose to carry and use deadly force, you are not in the playground any more! We are talking about killing people, maybe innocent people, and that is not a game. I love gun "nuts". You (we) are great people, but most of us are not killers. We practice a lot; we know our guns. But..

There is a lot of difference between punching holes in a target and watching blood spray out of a dying man's chest as he screams and screams.

There is a lot of difference between imagining the calm, cool way you will explain the situation to the cops and throwing up all over your new chinos.

There is a lot of difference between being hailed as a hero and being arrested for murder.

Guess what? A Glock or a SIG doesn't look so neat when a hard-faced cop is pointing it at you! It just looks dangerous!

If you fire at anyone, even the most bad of bad guys, as anything less than the last resort, you will be in lots of trouble, even if you hit no one.

Of course you have the right of self defense; you have that right whether you are armed legally or not, or not armed at all. But the key is SELF defense, not a general right to play Action Comics hero and defend the public in all situations.

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Old April 10, 1999, 11:01 AM   #23
Art Eatman
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Jim Keenan: One of the better parts of your posts is "...you are not in the playground anymore!" Implicit in all your arguments is the fact that there is a very high degree of personal responsibility in the carrying of deadly force.

Some of us may well not have thought about it as much as others. Nor reviewed the pertinent laws, and maybe not even considered the issue of bystander-safety. I think you and others have done well in bringing these issues into the discussion.

That said, I don't believe that taking action of your own volition in protecting the community is by definition playing Action Comics hero. It seems to me, and I could well be misunderstanding you, you are saying that if some armed action (omitting defense of yourself/family) is not sanctioned by government, you should not take that action.

(I recall a deer-hunter who center-punched a cop-killer with his .243. He didn't know the officer was already dead, but the perp was no longer a problem to any community...)

I guess that my point (if any) is that there are no hard and fast "rules" beyond common sense and safety. Yes, it may well be the best decision to let the perp take the money and run. For me, depending on circumstance, I would be rationally (I hope) proactive.

Okay? Best regards, Art

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Old April 10, 1999, 12:59 PM   #24
James K
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Art, you are right, there are no hard and fast rules. The point I am trying to make is that a CCW license allows the legal carry of a concealed weapon. Period. No police powers. No defending the community from runaway skateboarders. No patrolling the streets looking for bad guys.

Let's say a CCW guy sees a big man hitting and wrestling to the ground a much smaller man. Defending the helpless, he shoots the big mugger. Small detail - he just killed an FBI agent and let a serial murderer get away to kill again. Anyone think he's a hero?

You are right that I don't see my job as protecting the community. I would defend myself and my family against an immediate, real threat without much concern about possible accidental danger to others. Under similar circumstances, I would also defend a person I know to be innocent.

Anything else, I will/must leave to the cops, either as a practical matter or as a matter of law.
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Old April 10, 1999, 01:41 PM   #25
Kodiac
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"DODGE THIS"

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