The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old March 1, 1999, 10:53 AM   #1
Harry Humphries
Staff Alumnus
 
Join Date: October 13, 1998
Location: Huntington Beach, CA, USA
Posts: 59
How about optical assistance for ligted, low lighted, no lighted or no vision lighted i.e. fog - sand storms, etc.

There are some great products out there that come to mind.
Harry Humphries is offline  
Old March 1, 1999, 05:14 PM   #2
Byron Quick
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: November 13, 1998
Location: Waynesboro, Georgia, USA
Posts: 2,361
There is a lot out there that I have never had the opportunity to assess. Harry, I would appreciate your assessment of various products in these categories. Do you think the price of night vision equipment will continue to decline? Are there any moves afoot to ban them?
Byron Quick is offline  
Old March 1, 1999, 09:57 PM   #3
ATM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 8, 1998
Posts: 141
Seems to me that for anything over about 50 yards, optics would be a help. Closer for precision shooting. however optics do limit my field of vision, something I do not need at night or low light situations. Lasers do not have any redeeming use to me, except when the opponent knows I am there, and vie versa. Then the laser will help me hit first.

Just some random thoughts from a temporarily drain bead shooter.

------------------
Freedom is not Free
ATM is offline  
Old March 3, 1999, 06:33 AM   #4
Hilton
Member
 
Join Date: October 14, 1998
Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL
Posts: 69
I fail to see how a laser will allow a faster hit under the conditions prescribed above. The laser has no place on a tactical weapon. It does not allow target ID in low light, and in bright light, it is more difficult to see than red dot reticle scopes or iron sights.

The ideal sighting system allows for target ID in any light conditions and fast acquisition at varied and realistic ranges. A white light system with a red dot optic backed up by in line iron sights has the above features as well as the redundant safety of an additional sighting system -- good from 0-300m.
Hilton is offline  
Old March 3, 1999, 09:23 AM   #5
Byron Quick
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: November 13, 1998
Location: Waynesboro, Georgia, USA
Posts: 2,361
Rob mentioned a new Nikon scope a few weeks ago that has an integral range finder in it. What do y'all think of this concept?

At the time, I thought that it would not take very much in the way of additional electronics to turn this scope into an electronic version of a Leatherwood scope. One that adjusts the point of aim for elevation to the range. This would have the added benefit of being programmable to the specific powder charge and bullet weight being used. Opinions?
Byron Quick is offline  
Old March 3, 1999, 10:16 AM   #6
Rich Lucibella
Staff
 
Join Date: October 6, 1998
Location: South Florida
Posts: 10,166
Spartacus-
Sounds like a neat toy, but I see little application outside the sniper world. Naturally, more gadgets mean more likeliehood of failure.

For the typical hunting or defense situation, the range is probably not critical for most rifle caliber trajectories. Cooper describes this as the "Morning Glory Effect": at distances where we begin to wish we had selected a flatter shooting caliber, the error introduced by the marksman's skill is generally greater then the error corrected by the flatter shooting rifle.

As usual, I'm with Hilton. Quick target acquisition and backup iron sights seem to be the key. I am coming to appreciate the benefits of a low or no power Intermediate Eye Relief scope for defense rifles. As I speak to people who know far more than I, the answer always seems to come down to the Trijicon Reflex or Aimpoint Comp M.
Rich
Rich Lucibella is offline  
Old March 3, 1999, 09:35 PM   #7
ATM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 8, 1998
Posts: 141
Hilton -

Take note, I said the opponent knows I am there and vice versa. Thus target ID is not an issue when I would like a laser. As far as visual pickup, versus ironsights, or red dot; and usable distance I agree with you. Mea culpa, I forgot to say when in lowlight such as a house at night. This is the only place a laser has a use to me.

------------------
Freedom is not Free
ATM is offline  
Old March 3, 1999, 10:17 PM   #8
Byron Quick
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: November 13, 1998
Location: Waynesboro, Georgia, USA
Posts: 2,361
Sure, Rich, I agree. Not much application aside from snipers... But I know where some deer hang out about 800 yards away from me. I'd sure like to reach out and touch one. They are standing there all season going Yanananana, yanananana, you can't get us.

I like long range shooting for the enjoyment too.

It also fits one of my strategic concepts,i.e, get outside their maximun range and hammer them...aka get above them and drop big rocks.

Of course, the increase in gadgets increases the possible failure points as you stated. However, modern electronics are getting to be pretty darned tough.
Byron Quick is offline  
Old March 5, 1999, 06:13 AM   #9
Hilton
Member
 
Join Date: October 14, 1998
Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL
Posts: 69
ATM,
In a low light situation, a white light is going to be a prerequisite. That same white light will wash out a laser dot, making hits *slower*. Your prescribed "pre-identified" target situation sounds luxurious and unusual. You MUST positively ID your target before firing. If your adversary knows you're there, then why does the laser help? Please help me understand, I'm sure I'm missing what you're trying to convey.
Hilton is offline  
Old March 5, 1999, 10:04 PM   #10
ATM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 8, 1998
Posts: 141
Hilton -

I apologize I thought I was clear when I wrote my post. Looks like my fingers could not keep up with my thought process.

I see the usefulness of a laser for home defense, especially in lowlight. If a strange person comes into my home and gets to my bed(safe)room, I am not stopping to ask for id. If the person is LE, then I should know that before he gets to the room. Two things play here, one, I am not doing house searches/clearings on my own even in my own house. Two, I can see where time would not be on my side and thus being in wait for the person would not be possible. This means no lights on blinding him, and psosibly no glasses on me. I cannot see real well without correction, however I can see color differences and some fuzzy shapes with only my Mark 1, Mod O eyeball. A laser is very useful for showing me where I am targeted, in effect giving me a longer sight radius.

I am not sure I am totally clear here, but this is my thought process. By the way it is just me and my wife, no kids or others in the house.

I am not to sure about washing out the laser in a bright light. Just for kicks I took my Surefire and my pocket laser pointer, and shone them together on a dark wall, under normal room lighting. I had no problem seeing the laser on the wall at 15 feet. I also tried this with no lights on, still saw the laser. Was this a bad test, I do not know the power difference between a gun laser and a laser pointer, so maybe the test is invalid?

If he knows I am there, I want him to know I will hit him if I shoot. I believe psychology still works, and I want every bit of it I can on my side.

Hope this helps,

------------------
Freedom is not Free
ATM is offline  
Old March 5, 1999, 10:38 PM   #11
Rob Pincus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 1998
Location: Hotels
Posts: 3,677
Rich,

I agree that in 95% of the typical hunting situations the rangefinding scope (moreso the self-adjusting rangefinding scope) is going to cause more problems with creating second thoughts in the shooter than it is going to solve.

I still think it would be a neat toy to have and would be useful in the extreme shooting that Spartacus mentioned (read: any 500 yard+ stuff).

Rob Pincus is offline  
Old March 6, 1999, 04:48 AM   #12
Jeff Thomas
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 9, 1998
Location: Texas
Posts: 4,753
Harry et al, as an over age 40 shooter, with tired eyes, does the various optical equipment also offer the advantage of potentially helping correct vision during shooting? That is, it seems scopes can be adjusted for your own focus (to one'e own eyes), and I wonder if that is true with optical sights as well?

If so, that is a big advantage for those of us a little concerned about our sight. For that matter, does night vision equipment adjust to one's own eyes?
Jeff Thomas is offline  
Old March 6, 1999, 06:42 PM   #13
Hilton
Member
 
Join Date: October 14, 1998
Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL
Posts: 69
ATM,
Ah, I understand now the situation you describe. Your needs and application sound valid, but there are a couple sticking points that might be food for future thought. First, if you needed to shoot, but wasn't able to clearly ID your target in the dark (other than that it was an intruder), anything that might turn out vaguely questionable about the shooting will become more problematic in the ensuing legal hassles. Second, I continue to question the popular notion that the laser dot will intimidate an opponent. This implies that your opponent will stop what they're doing and for no apparent reason look at themselves. The illuminated laser diode is not always apparent from the business end of the weapon. Yes, it's bright and red, but it's no guarantee that the person will see the dot on their person. A bright white light will both ID the target and cause noticeable and predictable distraction to the recipient.
Hilton is offline  
Old March 7, 1999, 09:21 PM   #14
ATM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 8, 1998
Posts: 141
Hilton - As to an intruder stopping to look at the laser, you are right. Some will, some won't, so if it helps on the one I have to face I will take all I can get. I do not count on it, that is why I will always yell " Freeze I have a gun". when I am taken by surprise (this means no time to find the glasses or call the police on the cell phone). Anyone who can get to my bedroom, at night when I am sleeping, is not a casual burglar. Too much stuff one would take on tbe way up to the bedroom.

Will I have trouble after the shooting, because I shot without my glasses and or in dim light? I sincerely hope I never find out!

By the way, I do not use a laser at this time, but I have thought about it alot. This thread has confirmed my own feelings, that I am better off with a flashlight. Now if someone would just make a flashlight that fits on a 4"/6" revolver I will be in clover!

Thanks for the discussion Hilton.

------------------
Freedom is not Free
ATM is offline  
Old March 13, 1999, 07:24 PM   #15
HankL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 11, 1999
Location: The Sunny South
Posts: 2,174
I'm getting a little mixed up here. If it is dark "as pitch" then your lazer will only be making little red streaks on the walls because you can't pick up a target in total darkness. If you have a white light "flashlight" then you can illuminate "sorry" the situation. In most home situations there will be ambiant light enough to see a target glasses or not. My wife and I live alone and have the only keys to our house. If I have one hand on her and the other on my PDW and can see the unannouced figure framed in the doorway of our bedroom the point shooting drill comes to mind. Lazers are fun.
Just my 2 cents. Hank

------------------
HankL is offline  
Old March 27, 1999, 06:46 PM   #16
Kodiac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 16, 1999
Posts: 1,173
I had fun a couple weeks ago playing with a SBR version of the AR-15. On it was a OEG sight...

Strange sight - you dont through the scope - you look past it, at the target.

It worked great. I shoot like that alot - open sighted, pistols and carbines... This "Sight" is designed for that kind of shooting.

Trijicon made them - but I dont think they are being produced anymore.

------------------
"I got a bad feeling about this..."


Kodiac is offline  
Old March 27, 1999, 08:09 PM   #17
El Chimango Pete
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 11, 1999
Location: Sierras de Cordoba - Argentina
Posts: 352
Agree a laser pointing device is not very useful in most scenarios. I have a Beamshot on my 12 gauge pump shotgun however: In a mountain area, far from 'civilization' the most forseeable situation is an intrusion - beginning at about 200 yards, that may or may not be innocent. I have had one such, repelled boarders with the 'snick-snack' sound of a lever action carbine... The Beamshot would have a similar function: to intimidate if the situation is 'go-no go'; and wouldn't necessarily use it to fire if I had to (from partial cover - always): Intimidate first if its possible to avoid shooting.
El Chimango Pete is offline  
Old March 28, 1999, 09:30 AM   #18
fal308
Staff Alumnus
 
Join Date: October 12, 1998
Location: Missouri
Posts: 1,986
Kodiak
To see what Trijicon currently makes go to www.trijicon-inc.com . The current sighting systems are the ACOG series.
Didn't Armson make the OEG originally though?
fal308 is offline  
Old March 28, 1999, 09:34 AM   #19
fal308
Staff Alumnus
 
Join Date: October 12, 1998
Location: Missouri
Posts: 1,986
Forgot to mention that the latest issue of SAR has an article on the IDFs use of the Falcon sight for front line combat units on M16A2s and M4s. This is similar to the Colt Scout Sight. Very intteresting article.
fal308 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:23 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.11778 seconds with 9 queries