The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: General

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old April 9, 2011, 10:06 PM   #1
Madball6
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 30, 2011
Posts: 156
6.5 Grendel VS. 6.8 SPC comparisons?

Been contemplating a new upper for my AR-15, with the application being deer hunting (I'm not comfortable shooting deer with .223 I know it can be done, I just dont like it) So, between the 6.5 Grendel and the 6.8 SPC does anyone have experience with both? Is there a preferred cartridge between those for reloading ammo? I know neither is going to be on the shelf at walmart, but expense wise is either significantly more cost effective? Lot of questions there i know but hoping for some experienced input, thanks!
Madball6 is offline  
Old April 9, 2011, 10:20 PM   #2
mc223
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 20, 2007
Location: n/w Wisconsin
Posts: 365
223 is fine for deer. The BS abounds on this subject.

Get a new upper because you have cash to burn, not an excuse of needing it for deer.

By the way loaded ammo is expensive for either of your choices.
__________________
.
I didn't say it was your fault, I said I was blaming you.

0° 5150
mc223 is offline  
Old April 9, 2011, 10:22 PM   #3
Blackops_2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 20, 2008
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 2,591
6.5 is going to have better sectional density and ballistic coefficient. Better penetration and retained velocity downrange. So in turn you have longer capability of shooting per say if you ever feel the need to shoot farther. IMO the 6.5 grendel is just a superior cartridge.
__________________
"Combined synergy of a man and rifle is matchless, the steadiness of hand and acuity of vision, and finally the art of knowing how to make the rifle an extension of the body, all equate to the ultimate synthesis of man and machine."

"Death smiles at us all, all a man can do is smile back."
Blackops_2 is offline  
Old April 9, 2011, 10:22 PM   #4
bedlamite
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 10, 2000
Location: WI
Posts: 1,056
This again?

http://thefiringline.com/forums/sear...archid=5190982

The Grendel has match bullets available with better BC, but they are not something I would even consider using for big game. The Grendel's hunting bullets aren't really better than the SPC, so when the target is meat they are about the same. Realistically, both drop below 1000 ft-lbs of energy about 300 yards.
__________________
A plan is just a list of things that doesn't happen.

Last edited by bedlamite; April 9, 2011 at 10:28 PM.
bedlamite is online now  
Old April 9, 2011, 10:30 PM   #5
glockcompact
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 22, 2010
Location: Colorado, United States of America
Posts: 396
I have spent hours and hours on the internet looking up these two cartriges prior to buying my 6.5 Grendel. To be honest I believe they are both excellent cartridges.

My short answer would be if you never intend to shoot past 300 yards then the 6.8 SPC might be your best bet. In my eyes the 6.5 doesn't do anything better then the 6.8 at these ranges. Infact at very close ranges (sub 25 yards) the 6.8 would be superior, not necessarily because of knock down power, but because of lack of recoil. The great thing about the 223/556 is the recoil is so low that you can get back on target very fast for multiple shots. I believe the same is true for the 6.8. The 6.5 kicks about 20% more than the 223 in my experience. Still a mild recoil weapon but you would be slower between shots. However if you intend to go beyond 300 yards then the 6.5 is an excellent choice. Both rounds will beat out the .223 at any range. The 6.8 does have the advantage of a major ammunition manufacturer backing it up. However the 6.5G is not that hard to get ahold of either. You will not find any 6.5G on the shelves as of right now though. I'm not sure about 6.8. I chose the 6.5G because it does still beat out the 223 at any range and I would like to have a long rang AR someday. I figure I can have one round that does both. I gambled a little and went with the 6.5G. It has since grown and now has Hornady making ammo and brass for it. I also believe Black Hills makes ammo for it now too. I have been shooting the Wolf Gold and have had good luck with it. I have about 500 rounds of the Wolf through my Alexander Arms 16" tactical and I have not had any failures. It's a great little shooter and I'm very happy with the weapon.
__________________
Look I like glocks. I've owned Sig's, HK's, 1911's, S&W, and other fine pistols but Glocks have been a favorite for me. Handguns without safeties are not dangerous. Idiots are dangerous.

Last edited by glockcompact; April 9, 2011 at 10:42 PM.
glockcompact is offline  
Old April 9, 2011, 10:36 PM   #6
glockcompact
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 22, 2010
Location: Colorado, United States of America
Posts: 396
Quote:
Realistically, both drop below 1000 ft-lbs of energy about 300 yards.
The 123 grainers will hold above 1000 ft/lbs for past 425 yards in the Grendel.

Edit: Correction, I looked it up in my data sheet. According to my data a 123 gr lapua with the initial velocity of 2600 ft/sec and a bc of .547 will hold above 1000 ft/lbs for over 550 yards.
__________________
Look I like glocks. I've owned Sig's, HK's, 1911's, S&W, and other fine pistols but Glocks have been a favorite for me. Handguns without safeties are not dangerous. Idiots are dangerous.

Last edited by glockcompact; April 9, 2011 at 10:46 PM.
glockcompact is offline  
Old April 9, 2011, 10:44 PM   #7
Madball6
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 30, 2011
Posts: 156
Quote:
This again?

http://thefiringline.com/forums/sear...archid=5190982

The Grendel has match bullets available with better BC, but they are not something I would even consider using for big game. The Grendel's hunting bullets aren't really better than the SPC, so when the target is meat they are about the same. Realistically, both drop below 1000 ft-lbs of energy about 300 yards.
Today 11:22 PM
Sorry, tried looking in old posts didnt see anything directly comparing. Clicked your link and got a "post could not be found" so i guess its lost somewhere in the interweb :P I'm not trying to rehash old discussions but as a new member to these forums (3 weeks) There is alot of old posts to sift through and im am sure i will post other questions that have been previously answered. I only ask that the more senior members here bare with me and my inexperience and help with their knowledge when they can. Thank you for your replies and honestly I'm hoping for more of them, as I can afford shooting as a sport, I can't afford to make big mistakes on new purchases. As such I look for as much input as i can get when looking for information on a new purchase.

Thanks again for your help and knowledge.

-Keith
Madball6 is offline  
Old April 9, 2011, 10:44 PM   #8
bedlamite
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 10, 2000
Location: WI
Posts: 1,056
Quote:
The 123 grainers will hold above 1000 ft/lbs for past 425 yards in the Grendel.
Those are match bullets, not intended for hunting.
__________________
A plan is just a list of things that doesn't happen.
bedlamite is online now  
Old April 9, 2011, 10:51 PM   #9
glockcompact
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 22, 2010
Location: Colorado, United States of America
Posts: 396
me:
Quote:
The 123 grainers will hold above 1000 ft/lbs for past 425 yards in the Grendel.
bedlamite:
Quote:
Those are match bullets, not intended for hunting.
Fair enough then I looked up the Hornady 123 gr A-max. With initial velocity of 2600 ft/sec and bc of .510 they hold 1000 ft/lbs till 550 yards.

I also made a correction in my post #6
__________________
Look I like glocks. I've owned Sig's, HK's, 1911's, S&W, and other fine pistols but Glocks have been a favorite for me. Handguns without safeties are not dangerous. Idiots are dangerous.
glockcompact is offline  
Old April 9, 2011, 10:52 PM   #10
BusGunner007
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2001
Location: Upper Left Coast
Posts: 2,061
WHY isn't this cartridge getting more attention?

http://www.sskindustries.com/6_5mpc.htm

6.5 MPC...

The 6.5 MPC (Multi Purpose Cartridge) is a SSK development urged by Brian Hormberg (USMC) based on the 5.56 cartridge shortened and opened to 6.5 MM and the same OAL as the 5.56. In the M-16-AR-15 rifles it utilizes the 5.56 bolt and magazines as well as all other parts except the barrel itself. Its design adapts it to a short Close Quarter Battle rifle with a 12” barrel moving a 107 6.5 SMK at 2400 FPS with superior full auto controllability and excellent accuracy. The 12” barrel model easily puts it into the realistic 300+ yard combat category and longer barrels stretch that realistic combat range considerably further.

Factory ammunition is not yet available for the 6.5 MPC; however we are working on that. Ready to load brass and dies are in stock.

The 120 grain BT is near maximum bullet weight for good performance. 85 grain is about the least weight for good performance. Some 140 grain bullets may be used but ballistically are counterproductive.
__________________
"...if you're not havin' fun, you're workin'..."
BusGunner007 is offline  
Old April 9, 2011, 11:01 PM   #11
bedlamite
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 10, 2000
Location: WI
Posts: 1,056
Quote:
Fair enough then I looked up the Hornady 123 gr A-max. With initial velocity of 2600 ft/sec and bc of .510 they hold 1000 ft/lbs till 550 yards.
Another bullet intended for paper ...
__________________
A plan is just a list of things that doesn't happen.
bedlamite is online now  
Old April 9, 2011, 11:07 PM   #12
Madball6
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 30, 2011
Posts: 156
Quote:
Another bullet intended for paper ...
Other than zeroing it, i have absolutely no plans to put any of these rounds through paper, just deer (well and maybe hog though i still like the .223 for that) and in my hunting area there is little to no chance of a 300 yard shot on anything. I would expect most to be sub 150 yd shots.
Madball6 is offline  
Old April 9, 2011, 11:08 PM   #13
glockcompact
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 22, 2010
Location: Colorado, United States of America
Posts: 396
Quote:
I would expect most to be sub 150 yd shots.
Then I would say the 6.8 would be a serious contender for ya!
__________________
Look I like glocks. I've owned Sig's, HK's, 1911's, S&W, and other fine pistols but Glocks have been a favorite for me. Handguns without safeties are not dangerous. Idiots are dangerous.
glockcompact is offline  
Old April 9, 2011, 11:11 PM   #14
glockcompact
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 22, 2010
Location: Colorado, United States of America
Posts: 396
Quote:
Another bullet intended for paper ...
I'm not so sure about that. I wouldn't recomend it on say an elk out of a Grendel but from what I've read it ill drop a deer with no problems.
__________________
Look I like glocks. I've owned Sig's, HK's, 1911's, S&W, and other fine pistols but Glocks have been a favorite for me. Handguns without safeties are not dangerous. Idiots are dangerous.
glockcompact is offline  
Old April 9, 2011, 11:25 PM   #15
cornbush
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 29, 2008
Location: The retarded place below Idaho
Posts: 1,390
55 grain V-max, 750 grain A-max, 180 grain Partition, 250 grain Grandslam, no difference at all if it's in the wrong spot.
I would much rather punch a match bullet into the exact spot I want it than a "hunting" bullet into the chest.
__________________
The best shot I ever made was an accident
cornbush is offline  
Old April 9, 2011, 11:25 PM   #16
Madball6
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 30, 2011
Posts: 156
keep in mind im talking about georgia deer here, not exactly what i was used to in northern new england when i lived there. Deer here hardly deserve the name, 15o lbs is a monster down here.
Madball6 is offline  
Old April 9, 2011, 11:56 PM   #17
glockcompact
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 22, 2010
Location: Colorado, United States of America
Posts: 396
In my eyes anything under 25 yards the 6.8 wins. Anything over 300 yards the 6.5G wins. Anything in between is a wash.
__________________
Look I like glocks. I've owned Sig's, HK's, 1911's, S&W, and other fine pistols but Glocks have been a favorite for me. Handguns without safeties are not dangerous. Idiots are dangerous.
glockcompact is offline  
Old April 11, 2011, 08:22 AM   #18
thesheepdog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 12, 2010
Location: DFW Texas
Posts: 1,996
I say 6.5 because of the choice of bullets for reloading. And I own one. But I never have shot it past 120 yards because I don't have a good 500+ yard range nearby. Soon I will test it and see how much better it is ballistically than my 16" DD M4 at 400 yards. We shall see!
__________________
Krav Maga/Judo
Qualified Rifleman/Marksmanship Instructor/Lic. Medic
"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit" Romans 8:1
thesheepdog is offline  
Old April 11, 2011, 09:06 AM   #19
tirod
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 21, 2009
Posts: 1,232
Both calibers are certainly more powerful than 5.56, which makes them a legal choice in some states.

The bigger differences are in smaller things. They use the same lowers, uppers, BCG, sights, triggers etc. In hardware, the barrel, bolt, and magazine are what is different, and you can get them from the same makers, to boot.

What it boils down to is what incremental increase in ballistic performance do you want? The focus of the 6.8SPC development was more lethality than 5.56 at combat ranges, from a 14.5" barrel. The 6.5G focus was more precision at long ranges on a competition range, using 20"+ barrels. The case design was optimized to promote these different goals, and is exactly why they are so different.

Long case, short bullets in a larger diameter carry more initial energy, and in the typical 16" carbine AR, offer a short, light handy package. Short fat case, long bullets in a smaller diameter carry slightly less energy,even from longer barrels, but the bullet carries it further due to it's aerodynamic efficiency. That starts showing results, but it's mostly beyond combat ranges.

The important factor is where you want the power, and the break is about 250-350 yards depending on load. I chose the 6.8SPC because ballistic efficiency doesn't contribute much inside 350 yards, which is a long shot hunting whitetail. The .30-30 didn't become the nation's #1 deer cartridge for 100 years knocking them down out beyond 300 yards, and I've never had that shot hunting in the last 30 years.

Since I wasn't going to carry a caliber that was set up for a small percent shot, I got out of .30 cal battle rifles and went to the AR in 6.8. It matches what most hunters shooting whitetails and hogs in edge environments actually need. Power under 350 yards in a small light carbine.

That's why it's the #1 alternate caliber and has dozens of suppliers. Just get the SPCII stuff, which is largely all that is offered. And you can buy ammo off the shelf, even if it is Rem 115 OTM at the local Academy Sports. What you can also buy is full power tactical loads, and for the price of a decent scope, enough equipment to make handloads. Those are capable of reaching 3,000 fps from a 16" barrel.

Bill Wilson of custom 1911 building has no problem knocking down hogs on his Texas property with the 6.8, and offers his for sale. Check Bison, White Oak, and ARPerformance for uppers, barrels, bolts, and accessories. The guys at 6.8forum have lots of experience and shoot BOTH calibers, you'll find straight answers there on it's performance. It's also easier to search, it's ALL 6.8.

Choose which you prefer, I built mine to hunt, and set it up for that.
tirod is offline  
Old April 11, 2011, 09:14 AM   #20
taylorce1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 18, 2005
Location: On the Santa Fe Trail
Posts: 5,588
After shooting with a 6X47 Rem in a bolt action I wouldn't discount the 6X45 cartridge for deer at the ranges you are talking about. I'm able to meet the ft-lb and bullet diameter requirements here in CO with a short 20" barrel. I'm running a 1:12 twist and it will stabalize up to 80 grain bullets.

I took a pronghorn at a little over 300 yards this last season using a 70 grain Nosler Ballistic tip (varmint bullet), however at the speeds (3060 MV) I'm shooting at they don't have the explosive expansion at 200+ yards. However I do need to make sure that I don't get too close using this bullet, luckily pronghorn like to keep their distance. I'm looking into some GS custom bullets in the 70 grain range to use for hunting that should give me a bullet that will hold up to close range impacts much better thant the NBT.
__________________
NRA Life Member
The Truth About Guns
taylorce1 is offline  
Old April 11, 2011, 09:21 AM   #21
tirod
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 21, 2009
Posts: 1,232
Nice suggestions, but wildcats not available on the open market don't seem to be the OP's intent. Both the 6.8 and 6.5 at least have industry support and parts on the shelf, today.

Most hunters want industry support, meaning ammo on the shelf. That's already problematic with the 6.8 and 6.5, not many gun stores even carry it yet. It will get better, what is interesting is all the jockeying to come out with others loaded straight off the 5.56 case. The .300 Whisper/Blackout goes back to the 70's, and it hasn't made as much impact.

You can only churn the market so much, 6.8 and 6.5 are about the only ones with serious traction right now. Cutting the pie in smaller pieces isn't going to appeal to mainstream hunters new to the AR.
tirod is offline  
Old April 11, 2011, 09:31 AM   #22
Xfire68
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 31, 2010
Location: Communist State of IL.
Posts: 1,428
Quote:
keep in mind im talking about georgia deer here, not exactly what i was used to in northern new england when i lived there. Deer here hardly deserve the name, 15o lbs is a monster down here.
If your legal to shoot deer in your state with a 5.56 and are using hunting ammo stick with your 223/5.56 caliber. You said your using it on hogs and hogs are much tougher than a 100lb deer.

I don't see a reason to spend the money unless you just go ahead and spend it on a AR 10 and you problems is solved. You won't have any trouble finding ammo at a good price either!

Unless you reload I say stay away from the expensive "Hard to find" calibers.
__________________
NRA Life Member, SAF Member

www.aac300blackoutbrass.com A Veteran owned Business.
Xfire68 is offline  
Old April 11, 2011, 10:36 AM   #23
Wyosmith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2010
Location: Shoshoni Wyoming
Posts: 1,241
I have LOTS of experience with the 6.8. I and 7 friends of mine have used them for hunting in Montana, Wyoming, Michigan Idaho and Nevada for the last 6 years.

I have only a little experience with the 6.5. I have only built 2 of them and only one of the two has been hunted with my the man I made it for. He lives in Montana and owns 3 ARs I made for him, a 5.56, a 6.8 and a 6.5 Grendel. That 6.5 is a super good shooter, but he has said to me that the 6.8 kills have been better then his 6.5 (he's killed only 2 deer and one antelope with the 6.5. The 8 of us mentioned above have 70 kills now total made with the 6.8s)
It seems "Glock" is correct,--- the bullets that are used in the 6.5 are not as good as the 6.8 bullets for KILLING, but they are better for flight and targets. Not that the 6.5 is bad, but from about 350 yards and back the 6.8 kills better.
Here is a wound made by me with my 6.8 on a Wyoming Antelope. That's my fist in the pic. The 6.8 works VERY well and is VERY deadly.


If someone would bring out a 120 gr. 6.8 bullet that would not come apart, but that would also expand well, I think the 6.5 would be equal to the 6.8, but so far, it's not working out as well.
The Speer and the Remington 120 grain bullets should work wonderfully, but my man in Montana says they are not as good as the .277" 110 grain Sierra, the 100 grain Remington, and the 110 grain Barnes in the 6.8.

Hornady brought out some red plastic tipped 110 grain .277s a few years back and I tried them along with my friend Cas. They were not very good. They were erratic and didn't perform well on game even though they were SUPER accurate,. Some came apart and a few seemed to act like solids. So just shooting a 6.8 is not going to be magic either. There are some bullets in the .277" size that are not very good either.
It's good to ask those that have used the calibers and avoid making the same mistakes they did.

A normal man learns from his own mistakes
A wise man learns from the failures of others.
.
Wyosmith is offline  
Old April 11, 2011, 10:53 AM   #24
jimbob86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 7,112
Quote:
Hornady brought out some red plastic tipped 110 grain .277s a few years back
110 gr V-Max, intended to detonate inside prairie dogs when launched from a .270 WIN at 3,000+ f/sec ...... bad choice for hunting something you want to eat w/o picking bullet and bone fragements out of.....

Anybody tried Berger VLD's for hunting in either 6.8 or the Grendel round?
__________________
TheGolden Rule of Tool Use: "If you don't know what you are doing, DON'T."

http://nefirearm.com/
jimbob86 is offline  
Old April 11, 2011, 11:41 AM   #25
Longdayjake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 11, 2009
Posts: 619
I own and shoot both the 6.8 and 6.5. I have yet to take any large game with the 6.8 as I built it right before deer season and had no luck. However, I was able to get a cow elk with the 6.5 and a 100 grain Barnes TTSX loaded with 28 grains of AA2230. Those rounds had a chrono reading of about 2795-2800 fps. I could have probably put another grain or two of powder into them for another 100fps out of my 20 inch barrel. My shot was HORRIBLE. I hit the right rear femur as the elk was running at an angle away from me. The bullet broke the femur and passed another 2-1/2 to 3 feeth through the body and finally stopped just under the hide on the left front shoulder. Luckily the bullet caught something vital and she died after she layed down on the opposite side of the hill that I shot her on. The bullet penetrated a lot better than expected after hitting the femur. You can see where I cut the bullet out of her shoulder in this picture.



I think the bullet would have opened up a little more had it not hit the femur right off the bat.





Now, I believe that either round is capable of taking most game at reasonable distances. The 6.8 is a fine round and it is great for killing anything that you want it to. As Bedlamite points out, the 6.8 basically focuses mostly on various hunting rounds to load for it because the match bullets really don't have the best of BCs. The SPCII chamber was not designed for match accuracy either so you should not expect to get totally amazing groups (though some guys do). I personally think that the 6.8 is a perfectly good round for hunting. I think that the best bullet for the 6.8 right now is the 95 grain TTSX.

However, I personally prefer the 6.5 Grendel. It is true that most of the high BC bullets that the 6.5 Grendel can use are not designed for hunting. That said, the 6.5 range of bullets gives one plenty of hunting bullet options, though they don't have the high BC of the match bullets. The 6.5 bullets do seem to work pretty well on game. I personally don't think I will use anything but the Barnes TTSX 100 grain bullet because I think you get the most bang for you buck from that bullet. There are a lot of guys using the new 123 grain AMAX which will probably work as well as most hunting rounds. There are already a few guys reporting good results on deer.
The reason I like the Grendel is because my rifle can double as a long-distance, high-accuracy range toy AND it will kill a deer or elk as well as the 6.8. There are some that contend (stupidly) that the 6.8 is as good of a long range caliber as the Grendel, but in all actuallity BC really does mean something -especially when wind is added as a factor. So, when I want to shoot it for accuracy I can load some match bullets with high BC; when I want to shoot animals I can load it with some good hunting bullets.

Both the 6.8 and the 6.5 are going to cost about the same as any other good hunting load if you are buying factory ammo. Now that Hornady is producing brass for 6.5 grendel, both 6.8 and 6.5 reloading components are readily available and similar in price. I have found that the 100 grain TTSX 6.5 bullets are easier to come by than the 95 grain 6.8 TTSX, but that could just be in my area.

Also, the 6.5 grendel is short on makers of magazines but I have found that the 6.8 mags acutally work really well in my 6.5 Grendel and vise-versa. So, if you want to buy a high dollar 6.8 mag and use it in the 6.5 grendel, it should work well.

I won't tell you what to buy, but I will say that if I was to start all over again and I could only get one, I would definately go with the 6.5 Grendel. It's just more fun for me and does everything I want it to do.

Just for more information here is an article that I found kind of interesting.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.htm...=202148&light=
__________________
If you need bullets for reloading give my website a look.
www.rmrbullets.com
Longdayjake is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:15 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13940 seconds with 7 queries