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Old December 23, 1998, 12:04 AM   #1
GLV
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On another board, there has been a discussion about dogs, some trained in family protection, some attack trained, and just plain junk yard strays.
What is the best way to defend yourself?
Can you defend yourself from a trained attack dog? Stray dog packs?

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Old December 23, 1998, 05:38 AM   #2
SB
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The general concensus based on different threads I have gleamed suggests the following:

Against untrained/feral dogs:

1. Run away if possible.
2. If not, stand your ground.
3. Place your back against a wall or a tree if possible.
4. Wrap your offhand with your shirt/jacket/coat if time permits.
5. Be sure to have your defensive tools ready.
6. Pray that they back off.

Defense against a trained dog is essentially the same except that rather than praying, you scream for the owner, who is hopefully nearby, to command the dog to stop. Otherwise, don't bother waiting for the dog to get too close. Just attack at the first opportunity.
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Old December 23, 1998, 10:08 AM   #3
fal308
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First of all I believe that you must attempt to determine whether the dog(s) in question are feral or trained. Feral dogs tend to run in packs. Many, but not all, trained dogs are recognized species quite often associated with these type duties. Most trained dogs will go for the arm. Training a dog to go for the jugular could carry severe legal liabilities, I would imagine. As posted above move to a backstop, wrap your leading arm (hopefully off or weak hand) then go for the throat when they latch on. If you can access your weapon use it. Feral dogs would be very different as many are rabid. If in doubt, beat feet. Most rural people I know shoot unknown dogs (and cats) on sight b/c city folk don't want that cute little puppy they got for Christmas that grew into a big dog. They think they are doing it a favor by putting it back in it's "natural" environment; the wild.
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Old December 23, 1998, 12:45 PM   #4
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Grab the dog preferably from behind with both hands along the meaty skin on both sides of the neck. Grab alot and hard and be prepared for the dog to swing to one side, then wedge the body between your legs and push down to the ground and hold. You can maybe even guide the dog to a gate or something or to an avenue of escape.

This works for one dog only, obviously, and you still have to get away but this will buy you some time.


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Old December 23, 1998, 02:33 PM   #5
Rob Pincus
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Dogs are bad little beasties. I would avoid HTH with any P.O.'d dog before just about any human. I seen what trained and wild dogs can do to humans when they decide they want to.
Azone gave good advice, if you have to mess with a dog... tie it up and pin it down. Use your advantage in wieght to pin it to the ground and stay away from the chompers.

btw- I have a Shepard that has had some Shutzhund training, she is my burglar alarm and home defense weapon all at once.
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Old December 23, 1998, 08:21 PM   #6
Ed Brunner
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Fluency in German helps. Quite often a trained dog will not attack if you stand still.Do not turn and run.
A pack of dogs will kill you.
I know two people who have punched out attacking dogs with head shots.
I kicked one once with good results.
I dont like dogs.

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Old December 23, 1998, 11:46 PM   #7
GLV
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Some good replies and advice, what about using a knife or gun against an attack trained dog? We know that some dogs are in our society that have supposedly been deprogramed. How do we know one of the former attack dogs is not living next door?
There is an excellent article on the subject of dogs in Gung Ho, June 1982, written by Ayoob.
According to the experts that Ayoob interviewed for this article, an unarmed man has about a 25% chance of prevailing against a trained attack dog. George
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Old December 23, 1998, 11:53 PM   #8
Rob Pincus
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I sorta took it for granted that it was an unarmed guy. If I have a gun, I would try to shoot the dog, yes.

I would only try to use a knife after having pinned the dog. Rather like wild hog hunting, but the animal has, IMHO, a much better thought process for killing and definitely is more dangerous.

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Old December 24, 1998, 12:20 AM   #9
Jeff Thomas
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Actually, I've always loved dogs. Of course, mine don't go for my jugular, unless I miss their feeding!

Seriously, I always carry pepper spray now, so I have it out if I pass a suspicious dog. We also have packs (yes, they sometimes do run in packs) of coyotes around here from time to time. However, they generally seem smart enough to avoid us humans - they're out for cat and doggy hors d'oeuvres.

I also look for something I can climb up on if need be. At least with dogs, they don't climb worth a darn. It's mountain lions and bears that have always made me wonder what the heck I would do!



[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited 12-24-98).]
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Old December 24, 1998, 11:57 AM   #10
David
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I did two things to overcome a dog that the owner swears wouldn't bite.

He kept jumping up (the dog, not the owner)
like he was trying to grab my forearms or wrists. Everytime he jumped, I kneed him in the chest. This would flip him over and slow him down. I didn't try to run. I haven't seen too many people that can flat-out outrun a dog, especially if they're over 30 years old. If they can, they should be in the Olympics!

He finally did get my right hand, and, for whatever reason, I didn't try to pull away, I jammed my hand down his throat as hard as I could, and he started gagging and choking immediately. I guess I figured that if he wanted some of me, he was going to have to eat all of me at once. I got him in a sort of headlock and continued to "feed" him my hand and forearm until his life mission was to get away from me. I got two scars on my hand and a tetanus shot out of the deal, but the ole' hand down the throat trick changed his mind quickly.

Not pretty or graceful, but effective in that particular scenario. Oh, the dog was a 6 year old Doberman.

As far as packs of dogs, I can only recklessly speculate on that. The problem is maintaining any kind of offensive mindset while several dogs are chewing on you. The few times I have seen any kind of pack attack, it appeared there was a "lead" dog that was most agressive, with the other dogs being somewhat less agressive. Maybe if you could eye gouge the most agressive one, and work your way down the line??? I don't know. That's a tough one.

[This message has been edited by DAVID (edited 12-24-98).]
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Old December 24, 1998, 10:30 PM   #11
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If attacked by a single dog, let him go for your arm, then go for his throat. You can take him, but you WILL be bitten. A pack? As Jeff Thomas said, climb a tree, a fence, or shoot!
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Old December 24, 1998, 11:07 PM   #12
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I would not wish to come across as bragadocious, but I believe I am meaner (and, thank god, smarter) than any dog I'll meet. I believe some of the better advice I've seen advocated shoving the "reaction" side forearm deeply into the dog's jaws when it attacks, placing the other arm behind the dog's head, and "rolling" the arms to break the neck. Of course, one gets fewer punctures if one has had time to wrap the forearm!

If I have a knife (and, I always do), I might feed the dog my left, and gut him w/ my right hand. If an option, I would prefer to keep dogs at distance, but I feel that I could take any single dog-or two, on a good day- regardless of weaponry.

In the martial art I train in, we often do shinai drills, where the student must face an instructor, who cuts at him with a bamboo training sword. The key to doing this well is waiting until just the right moment. I would tend to believe that most dogs will spring, unless they are ankle biters (which would place them in the "annoying but not really dangerous except for potential diseases" category). If one has an impact weapon, or even just knows how to deliver a good blow, I cannot see having trouble defeating a dog my weight (140 lbs) or less.


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Old December 25, 1998, 10:11 PM   #13
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Spectre, I have the greatest respect for your training. Jim Arvanitis, world recoginized martial artist, was raising attack Dobes in the early eighties. He states that he would give the average black belt a 30% chance of defeating one of his Dobes, and even with his special knowledge, only would give himself a max of 70% of not being killed. Yes, weapons will make a difference. A side step with a strong kick to the ribs might work -- but Dobes can almost change direction in the air. Timing is everything. A kick in the genitals may work, but won't stop a trained attack dog. Another poster mentioned grabing by hide along side and under the ears, and lifting the dog off of the ground and throwing the dog. May work on untrained dogs. George
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Old December 25, 1998, 10:50 PM   #14
Rob Pincus
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Spectre, my friend, you have all my confidence and support. But, for now, my money is on the attack dog.

(I can't wait 'til we get together in February... Don't scare my friends )

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Old December 25, 1998, 11:50 PM   #15
Michael Carlin
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Spectre,

You are the MAN! I think it possible to defeat a dog bare handed, but it is not something that I wish to do.

There are some good points made here!

In the series of books by John Ambrose Hunter there is a reference to a letter from his contemporary, the tiger shooter from India, Jim Corbett. Corbett writes that it has been sometime since he last wrote, and that he is sorry but that he has been recovering from a run in with a tiger.

A man eater was preying on a village, so he went up there and baited the tiger with a goat. Shooting from a machan in a tree he somehow wound up on the ground, with a wounded tiger who bounded in an acacia thicket. His gun bearer ran off, so he fired up a lantern and entered the thicket with a 12 gauge shotgun in search of the tiger.

He just realized that the tiger had doubled back on him and turned to be struck by the tiger as it leaped upon him. He was upon his back and the tiger was attempting to disembowel him while seeking the base of neck bite that that species kills with. Drawing his knees up, Corbett thrust his left arm into the tiger's mouth and every time the tiger released it to spit it out in order to get the killing bite he wanted Corbett thrust his arm in deeper.

Finally the tiger gagged and stepped back freeing Corbett's right arm and the Greener shotgun. Thrusting the barrels up under the tiger's chin he fired both barrels killing the tiger instantly. The shot also amputated his left hand above the wrist! The delay in writing was due to the fever and infection that he had as he recovered from this experience.

When I was a child, I watched the neighbor man deal with a dog that growled at him as he shagged it out of his garbage can. When the dog showed his teeth he reached towards the dog, and as the dog went to bite him he grabbed the dogs lower jaw and twisted it turning the animal over onto its back in one quick motion. This was a shepard of about 70-80 pounds. When the dog landed on his back the neighbor kicked him solidly in the ribs with a vicious kick. That dog left for parts unknown in one hell of a hurry.

Couple years later my brother was bitten by a large Irish Setter on his paper route. John quit delivering the lady's paper as she refused to pay his forty dollar doctor bill.

She then would call the newspaper up and complain that her paper was missing and they would deliver one and charge John about 2.50 for it. (In those days one deliveres 100 dailies for about 14.00 every two weeks).

My father spoke to the woman and she was adamant, her dog NEVER bit anyone, and she wanted her paper! On sunday Dad delivered her paper with a mattock handle under his arm. When the paper hit the screen door the dog attacked jumping from the porch to my dad's position on the steps. He had the mattock handle in the middle with his hands about 14 inches apart. He offered the dog the small end and as the dog lunged for it he smacked the cur with the big end, and then he lit into that dog with both ends of the handle alternately. He knocked out at least two teeth and the dog had had more than enough inside of 5 or 6 seconds.

Never had any problem with the dog again.

A brick in your paper sack makes on hell of a dog whacker. You hold the sack out in front of you fairly high, and as the animal goes to grab it you swing it violently in a loop back towards you, he moves in to discover the brick descending sqaurely on his head.

I like dogs, if yours bites me, or looks like he is going to bite me, he is going to be toast.

When I was wrenching for the City of Minneapolis, a burglar was holed up in a warehouse and the cops ordered him out. He did not respond, so they loudly announced that they were sending in the dog.

He responded that he was not coming out if there dog was present, and if they sent it in he would kill it as he was deathly afraid of dogs. They sent the dog in, the burglar was bitten terribly, the dog was stabbed, slashed and disemboweled. The burglar survived. The dog did not.

One dog, Spectre, like taking a knife from someone, you can figure on being injured. Two or more dogs, better have a good shotgun.

just my .02

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Ni ellegimit carborundum esse!

Yours In Marksmanship

michael


[This message has been edited by Michael Carlin (edited 12-26-98).]
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Old December 26, 1998, 12:05 AM   #16
Rob Pincus
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For every "I survived a vicous dog attack" story there has got to be 10 people who have visited the hospital, probably more.

Micheal,
Your last point is probably right on. A capable fighter can probably survive an encounter with any dog... but at what cost?

The only way I am tangling with a dog is if I absolutley have to, or if someone else is in danger of being lunch, should I scoot.

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Old December 26, 1998, 03:06 AM   #17
Marcus
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I`ve had a few bad experiences with dogs,in one a friends dobbie (who`d never met me at the time) attacked me. It ran at me and leaped off the ground aimed at my throat mouth agape. I reacted without really thinking,when it`s feet left the ground I nailed it in the chops with a hard right. It landed on the ground with a thud and went and hid in the corner,which is a good thing cuz I don`t have the foggiest what I would have done next if it hadn`t. In another notable encounter 4 mangy strays surrounded me on a suburban street one night. I backed up to a chainlink fence so they couldn`t get me from behind and pulled out my Sm.Kershaw DWO (although they weren`t called that then)and faced them,determined not to show them how scared I was. The biggest,a black lab,started to close in,snarling and such. I crouched down a little and faced him,staring right into his eyes while minding my peripheral vision for movement. He closed to just out of my range and stopped,I took half a step toward him and he stepped back. I did the same to the dog to my right,the smallest ,and it moved back too. I used this to give myself and opening and worked my way down the street away from them,never turning my back. In that case all the old standbys seemed to work. Boy am I glad I didn`t have to face 4 dogs with a 2.5" folder!!! Marcus
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Old December 26, 1998, 02:00 PM   #18
Spectre
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I hope I have not come across as swaggering and foolhardy. I don't want to fight anything. I do feel that everyone who has a chance should read Capstick's books. He has stories of hunters who used holding onto a lion's tongue to save them, another of someone who used kicks in the crotch to discourage a leopard who had him pinned down, among others. The idea I took from this is that the WILL to survive is by far the most important attribute. Also, as Eastwood said, "Every man's gotta know his limits." Anyone (presumbably) can be ambushed, but I feel that I can hit anything my weight or less hard enough to stop it. I would prefer to hit it with 00 buck.
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Old December 26, 1998, 03:22 PM   #19
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Spectre, again, I have no doubt about your ability or resolve. I think we tend to look at dogs, junkyard dogs, even trained family defense dogs, not at the hard trained attack dogs. Hopefully none of us will ever run into one of these attack dogs, when master/owner is not there to call off the dog.
Ayoob says the best medicine is a .357 Mag with nuclear ammo.
If a handgun is used, try to shoot into the mouth and up into the brain pan. Shots to the sloping skull may deflect.
The hard trained attack dog will quit only when dead, and can do a lot of damage after taking a fatal shot. George
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Old December 26, 1998, 09:44 PM   #20
Spectre
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I had the chance to talk to a neighbor of Spartacus a few weeks ago. Years ago, this man had a "disagreement" with one of S's Dobermans. The neighbor shot the dog 5 times with #4 Buck...
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Old December 27, 1998, 11:08 PM   #21
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I'll just throw out some knowledge and idea's n stuff.

Where I came from, if ever attacked by a dog, you treated it almost as you would a person. Punch it right in the face, if it bites your hand...ram it down the dog's throut, try to get the dog down with you in the power position, and if you must...try to break its neck.

Now I just wish to tell you that twice this year, Rotwielers went nuts in Atlanta, and went after children. Both had to be killed to make them stop. One of them took 4 bullets from a .44 mag to stop it. I do not recall what they did to stop the other one.

The type of dog would make a big diference in how I aproched the situation.

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Old December 28, 1998, 09:36 AM   #22
Spectre
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Good point, SD. A Rotty might have the weight advantage on me! I would prefer to use some tool that could keep the beast at distance, if possible. A cane might be a good choice. A good stroke from an ASP to the brow might be effective, as well. (followed by strangulation from behind while the dog is stunned?)
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Old December 29, 1998, 03:16 PM   #23
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Let us not forget that a large dog's throat/neck area is massively surrounded by muscles. I wouldn't be so sure that strangulation is feasible.

However, dogs are usually pretty self-conscious in regard to their balance. My own Fila Brasileiro bitch gets quite frantic whenever she finds herself on unsure ground such as the kitchen tiles and I've seen other dogs do as much.

FWIW, she weights 175 lb and on her hind legs she's a bit taller than me, at 5'9"...


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Old December 29, 1998, 06:14 PM   #24
Edmund Rowe
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Gentlemen:

I see one flaw in all the comments up to now. Although it IS in line with the original post's question, what would we do if there were more than one dog attacking us?

If that were the case, I think the best solution would be shoot and keep shooting until all within range are incapacitated, or get inside a vehicle, phone booth, (anyone seen a phone booth lately?) or other enclosure.

If the above fails, I'd say the best option (only option?) would be put on your best war face, do your best war howl, attack and keep attacking in the best berserker tradition with whatever's at hand until one side wins, keeping in mind if/when one dog latches on, your mobility will suffer and the rest will probably pile on.

...ya suppose the sight of an overgrown Korean ("dog-eater!!!") charging while howling all out would make some dogs flee?
I wouldn't count on it, but might as well go down fighting.

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Old December 29, 1998, 06:26 PM   #25
motorep
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I agree with Edmund - shoot the son of a bitch. I can't run faster than an attack dog, neither can my kids. I'd retreat if possible but treat it, or them, just like any other potentially lethal threat.
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