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Old April 8, 2011, 12:20 PM   #51
Microgunner
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These are good arguments in both camps but I still believe it better to act than hope. Statistics only show a majority of armed robberies end without violence, not all. I'd hate to die with a perfectly good sidearm still holstered, and not knowing which side of the odds I'm going to fall on I choose to fight.
Each has to decide for himself.
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Old April 8, 2011, 02:36 PM   #52
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It is amazing to me how many keybpoard strategists seem to believe that their shooting of an armed robber will somehow so immediately and effectively disable the person shot that that person will not be able to squeeze a trigger at least once.
But I saw it in a movie once well a lot of times.....

I always thought that when a person dies they could lock the fingers in what was called a death grip. I would not wish to find out if it is true or not on someone might not have gotten hurt if the bad guy was left alone.

When a gun is pointed at you then do as you wish but when your actions may cause death or harm to the one you are trying to protect.......... oops hate it when that happens.
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Old April 8, 2011, 03:03 PM   #53
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Quote:
These are good arguments in both camps but I still believe it better to act than hope. Statistics only show a majority of armed robberies end without violence, not all. I'd hate to die with a perfectly good sidearm still holstered, and not knowing which side of the odds I'm going to fall on I choose to fight.
Each has to decide for himself.
Keep in mind that the whole premise of this scenario is that you are a witness, not an active participant.

Do you then escalate the situation to a shooting situation when the felonious actor has yet to discharge his weapon? Granted one may be authorized and even justified in using deadly force, but is that really the best option at this time?

That is a decision you, the investigators, local prosecutor, and judge and jury will have to make.

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Old April 8, 2011, 03:10 PM   #54
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The death reflex can be avoided by a well placed shot to the CNS for an instant shut down. Let's hope the BG is kind enough to announce a robbery, and then hold perfectly still.

I'm not going to tell people to shoot or not shoot; the circumstances will dictate the right action to take. I will say that maybe if people think there is the possibility it "could happen to them", that they train for it. Maybe tie helium balloons to strings on a breezy day and try to hit them with regularity, after drinking a triple latte and doing some jumping jacks.I'm not trying to be a smart ass, or down play anyone's abilities, but that would approximate the average persons response to being thrust into a deadly force situation. If the BG isn't hit by the first round and incapacitated, collateral damage is a strong possibility.
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Old April 8, 2011, 04:30 PM   #55
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I'd hate to die with a perfectly good sidearm still holstered
I think you would have absolute justification in this situation to have your sidearm unholstered. I don't think anyone on TFL will tell you that's wrong, as long as you discreetly unholster and come to the low ready in the direction of the threat without announcing yourself. I think that would be reasonable and prudent in most cases, as long as your presence in unknown. The opportunity to thwart an armed robbery (or a threat to you or another person) may well present itself, and then you can act MUCH faster. To shoot an individual while he has a gun pointed at another person is probably not the best COA, IMHO. And this is from someone who can't stand good people looking the other way while crime takes place.
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Old April 8, 2011, 05:10 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by OldMarksman
It is amazing to me how many keybpoard strategists seem to believe that their shooting of an armed robber will somehow so immediately and effectively disable the person shot that that person will not be able to squeeze a trigger at least once.
Well, I wouldn't be aiming at his butt. If I have a good shot opportunity at his brain, then he'll go down instantaneously--he won't even feel a thing. Whether he lives or dies is not up to me, but he'll be stopped. On the other hand, if I didn't think that I could hit him with sufficient precision (e.g. too much movement of his head, too much shaking of my hands), then I wouldn't take the shot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMarksman
As threegun has stated very well on more than one occasion here, the armed citizen who intervenes may well precipitate a tragedy that would not have happened but for his intervention.
It's hard to say which option gives one the greatest odds of survival overall because we'd have to judge how likely the perp is to senselessly kill the cashier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMarksman
So--what would make it a good idea for a person other than a sworn officer, who is not indemnified by the community, to try to draw and shoot someone because he may shoot someone else?
Legal considerations aside, what makes it a good idea for a police officer to escalate the situation? Does that improve the odds of the cashier's survival over surreptitiously waiting for the robbery to end first?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMarksman
Not much. Perhaps, if the perp and his M.O. resemble that of someone who has in fact been shooting his victims in the area; perhaps, if the shot is clear and close; the backstop is good; the perp's attention is drawn from the citizen who is the would-be hero; and the perp's gun is pointed in a safe direction... maybe, then....
Right, I'd have to be there to have any idea whether it would be worthwhile and whether I have the ability to make the shot. It's hard to go into the exquisite level of detail needed on a forum. I will say that for me it's an option I would not rule out ahead of time, and that it is actually preferred if (and only if) the situation calls for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMarksman
But then, no one has mentioned the likelihood that the perp has an armed accomplice standing behind you for just such an eventuality.
Like the perp, my situational awareness could let me down, that's true. But then I'd be in trouble regardless of whether I take the shot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gearhounds
I'm not going to tell people to shoot or not shoot; the circumstances will dictate the right action to take. I will say that maybe if people think there is the possibility it "could happen to them", that they train for it. Maybe tie helium balloons to strings on a breezy day and try to hit them with regularity, after drinking a triple latte and doing some jumping jacks.I'm not trying to be a smart ass, or down play anyone's abilities, but that would approximate the average persons response to being thrust into a deadly force situation. If the BG isn't hit by the first round and incapacitated, collateral damage is a strong possibility.
That's sort of how I train, actually--usually with Airsoft for safety and so that I can train against others, but I'll get paper targets to swing and bounce around (not hard to do) at the shooting range, as well (your balloon idea sounds like fun, though). If I had to, at this point I could almost certainly hit a slightly bobbing head-sized target from 5 yards out by point-shooting (indexing with the gun but not using the sights). Of course, I'd want more precision and certainty in a real scenario, so I'd use the sights and would only shoot as long as the target isn't moving too much, otherwise I'd forget about it due to excessive risk. The trick is knowing what one can and cannot do, and the only way to find out is to try all kinds of things ahead of time.
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Old April 8, 2011, 06:37 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by BikerRN
Keep in mind that the whole premise of this scenario is that you are a witness, not an active participant.
Well, I view this a little differently. Anytime someone would walk into a room that I occupy, brandish a firearm and start threatening to kill people I believe that I'm an active part of this dynamic situation by default. To believe otherwise would be foolish.
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Old April 8, 2011, 06:43 PM   #58
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Posted by Manco: Well, I wouldn't be aiming at his butt.
Right--you will not be aiming at any part of him. You aren't at the range.

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If I have a good shot opportunity at his brain, then he'll go down instantaneously--he won't even feel a thing.
Methinks you should invest in some high quality defensive pistol shooting training, and perhaps some interactive training with simunitions.

One is trained to draw fast and to shoot instantly and rapidly at COM. There's a reason for that. Targets in real confrontations do not stand still--they move and shoot back. The head is just much too difficult to hit with confidence.

Perhaps you should also look at some accounts of actual police gunfights (such as the one we had here in town yesterday, where one perp was hit in the hand and in the ankle and in the buttocks, and the other in the head twice, and in the wrist. Both have been released from the hospital, by the way).

Don't jump to any conclusions about police skills and training. All of the officers I've shot with are good. One hit a torso sized steal plate at fifty yards strong hand, weak hand, and strong hand upside down. That was just for fun; real tactical situations don't involve that kind of thing.

Your "good shot opportunity at his brain" is the stuff of pure fantasy. Seriously, do you think he will stand still for you?

Quote:
On the other hand, if I didn't think that I could hit him with sufficient precision (e.g. too much movement of his head, too much shaking of my hands), then I wouldn't take the shot.
Now that's some good thinking. And that is most likely the outcome.

Of course, if you do not have sufficient training to understand the likelihood that that head will move just as you fire, or that the CNS is a small portion of the head, you may make a very poor decision through overconfidence.

Quote:
It's hard to say which option [intervene or not] gives one the greatest odds of survival overall because we'd have to judge how likely the perp is to senselessly kill the cashier.
Yes we would, but it isn't that hard. If the guy orders the cashier into the back room, the game is on. But if he does not, the general likelihood that he will shoot is generally less than 25%, and that means that the likelihood that he will kill is around 2-3%.

But if you intervene, the likelihood that he will shoot really, really skyrockets.

Quote:
Legal considerations aside, what makes it a good idea for a police officer to escalate the situation? Does that improve the odds of the cashier's survival over surreptitiously waiting for the robbery to end first?
Nothing, but the officer is sworn to perform a duty, and he or she is trained. He or she will not shoot unless he or she has to and can do so, and if things go south and they followed procedure properly the mess is not on their nickel.

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But then I'd be in trouble [with the perp's accomplice] regardless of whether I take the shot.
How so? If he has remained in the background, your producing a weapon will alert him and he will surely shoot you.

Quote:
Of course, I'd want more precision and certainty in a real scenario,...
Get some real training. Precision and certainty is for snipers.

Happens that I know a couple of former police snipers. They used very good scoped rifles, and they had spotters and someone to tell them whether to shoot.
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Old April 8, 2011, 08:11 PM   #59
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for those who say they will hit the head, butt, ankle or whatever... do you have any very good training? or just watch youtube and shoot straight at the range? seriously....

or is that just the super rambo boy or "super I"....

I am no an expert shooting or LEO...but even for a LEO that would be hard, unless you already know how you are going to react and control the stress...

but as far as I know the people I know who teach SD or are expert in SD, the last thing they want to do is to shoot..

the more one read the law, the less one want to get involved in that situation, EVEN if you are in your right...

to shoot straight at the range with the target in front is one thing but to shoot behind cover in a not very comfortable way is not that easy... and even worst if the target is moving...or shooting at you....

but if you are an expert and you have a lot of training, so excuse me and good luck.. and please let us know where you got that training, for sure it would be very useful for us..

or are you a master shooting USPSA/IDPA?
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Old April 8, 2011, 09:16 PM   #60
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Ok. I have been following this with great interest. Now let me change it up a bit. Let's put you behind the counter. Or let's put you in an alley somewhere. A BG approaches you with a gun pointed at you and demands your wallet. Are you going to hand it to him or are you going to say something like "sure, just relax. No reason for anyone to get hurt." Then you say "my wallet is right here." as you reach behind towards your pocket. Do you pull your 45 and shoot him (as you make an evasive move) or do you pull your wallet and no longer have an excuse to reach for your back pocket. Now the BG either will plan to leave with your wallet, but may first shoot the witness (you). And if you again reach for your back pocket because he is really going squirley, (no longer under the guise or reaching for your wallet) he will likely pull the trigger for sure.

As I see it, you are now trying to figure his intention. Now the law in KS says if he is pointing the gun at you (even if it is a toy and looks real), that you have reason to fear for your life and you are justified in using your weapon for self defense.

And you aren't likely to trade pointed guns and say "freeze." You had better shoot first.

In the case of the store clerk being the victim, in my opinion, you need to quietly assess the situation and decide whether to protect him. I doubt your decision will be perfect. And I imagine it will be impossible for us to predict all situations and outcomes here. It will be easy to Monday morning quarterback, however.

This whole thread is full of intrique and is thought provoking. We need to be alert, on our toes and make the best possible decisions when called to act. We won't be perfect. And we might need help to live with the outcome. But we will have done what we thought was best at the time.

Pray that it was -- that you will not be tried for murder or sued for deadly assault on the BG. That is all part of the responsibility of CC. If you do not want the responsibility, quit the game.

Old story: In Vietnam, we did not always recognize the enemy. We were not perfect in all of our decisions, but were forced to live with the outcome. Sometimes the enemy was a mother or a child. Sometimes we were right. Sometimes we were dead wrong. USMC, 1st MAW, 3rdMarDiv, KheSanh, DongHa, PhuBai, '68-69. Life is not always easy. Be responsible and work with the information you have. Live with your decisions.
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Old April 8, 2011, 11:41 PM   #61
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The man who attempts to take a gun away from some one who's armed, is a fool.
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Old April 9, 2011, 03:00 AM   #62
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Who goes around WANTING to be THAT KIND of hero?

Quote:
GoOfY-FoOt

Not to play devil's advocate, but what if, it was a toy gun that looked real, had no bullets in it, and the 'robber' just went through some sort of trauma like he lost his job and his wife, and felt he had no choice but to 'steal' some cash so that he could feed his kids?
There are hundreds of circumstances that could cause a good person to do something bad. Should they lose their life for it?
Could you sleep at night, knowing that 3 kids would have even more to deal with and live through, because you wanted to be a 'hero'?
Frankly, if an armed civilian has the attitude of wanting to engage in heroism that involves gunplay, I would definitely stay behind that person, WAY behind.

Most of us are not law enforcement, and if we sport delusions of such, we could drift over into vigilantism. Not a good thing.

There is a saying among (tv cops, at least), "If you want to be a hero, join the fire department."

The riskiest heroism I SEEK is donating to my local Blood Bank.

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Old April 9, 2011, 05:09 AM   #63
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I posted this along time ago in another thread.

Someone very close to me(I'll refer to as Jack) was going out gambling one night and was supposed to meet up with a friend at a Cols.Ohio bar called the O.K. Cowgirl Saloon located on S.High St. After they met, they were going to a big poker game out on the east side of town.

The inside of this bar was very long and narrow with a main entrance door off High St. and a rear entrance door from an alley in back. With only 6 or so local patrons sitting at the bar, Jack had no trouble finding a place to sit.

Jack sits down at the bar and orders a beer. He never got that beer half drank till a hooded man and woman entered the front door and another hooded man came in the back door. All had guns. Both men had handguns, woman had sawed off shotgun.
They announced they were robbing the place and ordered everyone against the wall with hands up on the wall. Robbers quickly took register till, all wallets, jewelry and for no more people present, the robbers scored fairly well. They were in and out in minutes. You could tell this wasn't their first rodeo.

Jack lost close to $600 and a very nice old Bulova watch given to him by his Uncle. The robbers missed several thous. $'s he had divided and hidden in his boots along with his pistol in an ankle holster.

Jacks biggest concern through the whole thing was that one of the patrons would try to be a hero. Since the bar was so narrow and with everyone lined up against the wall, one blast by the woman welding the shotgun would be devastating for several people down the line. Thankfully that never happened.

For those that think they would 'blaze away' or just 'shoot the BG in the head" if given the opportunity, I hope you really think about what you're doing. You may get some innocent people killed. You're scared and more than likely so is the BG. The money/valuables can be replaced.
Course, if the BG starts pulling the trigger, we have to do what we have to do.

PS. Jack really missed that watch. It had special meaning.

Oooops... forgot to mention, Jack also lost his wedding ring. Didn't take him long to get over that though, he soon divorced.

Last edited by shortwave; April 9, 2011 at 05:33 AM.
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Old April 10, 2011, 10:53 AM   #64
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Maybe tie helium balloons to strings on a breezy day and try to hit them with regularity, after drinking a triple latte and doing some jumping jacks.I'm
Try shooting one of those skinny balloons used by entertainers to make different figures as this would simulate the small instant kill area inside the head or the upper spinal cord. Better yet try to hit that skinny balloon while its concealed inside the head sized round balloon. Now make it move erratically. You also have angles that can change where you need to impact the target for the bullet path to cross the desired instant stop zone. Reality has it much more difficult to instantly stop someone than most folks understand. Once I learned this it became very clear what the correct course of action is in this scenario.

Quote:
Of course, if you do not have sufficient training to understand the likelihood that that head will move just as you fire, or that the CNS is a small portion of the head, you may make a very poor decision through overconfidence.
Now this is well said.
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Old April 10, 2011, 12:56 PM   #65
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A BG approaches you with a gun pointed at you and demands your wallet.
If my situational awareness failed me and I was at gun point, I would ride the odds and comply. I'm pretty fast but not faster than a trigger finger. If at some point I felt that I was going to be shot anyway then I would go down fighting if my body and mind allowed it.
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Old April 10, 2011, 02:40 PM   #66
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Posted by Eagle Eye: A BG approaches you with a gun pointed at you and demands your wallet...Do you pull your 45 and shoot him...
NO! I suppose there may some people who are in superb condition who have extremely fast reflexes and who practice all of the time who might be able to pull that off, but I am not one of them.

There was once a Border Patrol agent who probably could have gotten by with that, but whether he would have tried is another question. There were some TV stars in the fifties and later who could do that, but they depended upon the director's instruction that the other guy lose; they used single actions loaded with blanks and carried in special fast draw holsters; they got more than one try; and just to make the fiction look convincing, they needed training from Arvo Ojala and later, Thel Reed.

Quote:
Now the law in KS says if he is pointing the gun at you (even if it is a toy and looks real), that you have reason to fear for your life and you are justified in using your weapon for self defense.
Is there any jurisdiction in the country in which is that is not true (assuming, of course, that he is not an officer who is lawfully arresting you, and a few other things)?

However, being justified in doing something does not give you the ability to do it.

I recently saw Massad Ayoob demonstrating something on Personal Defense TV. The scenario was different: the perp has not yet drawn when he meets you at arms length, but his hand is on his gun. However, the question was the same: "Do you pull your 45 and shoot him (as you make an evasive move)...". Actually, it wasn't a .45.

The answer was no, because you cannot outdraw him. The recommended move was to get your other hand on his gun hand to prevent him from drawing and go for your gun as you do that.

If one cannot beat a man who has his hand on his gun, I cannot see how one could believe for a moment that he could beat a man who has his gun already pointed.
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Old April 10, 2011, 03:18 PM   #67
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There were some TV stars in the fifties and later who could do that...
Sammy Davis Jr. comes to mind.
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Old April 10, 2011, 05:18 PM   #68
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I posted the scenario in order to make you all think. I wanted you to decide if you would act differently if it was you at risk instead of the store clerk. I actually think you would have been safer pulling on the bad guy who was threatening the store clerk (and yes, that would likely pass muster with KS law as well -- I don't want to research all other 49 states in which I do not live).

But by the way, the scenario was somewhat true. The victim acted calmly and reassured the BG that he could have his wallet. The BG relaxed a bit as the intended victim reached for his "wallet" in his back pocket and pulled a 45 instead. The BG was not shot but was held as police were summoned. This happened last fall in Kansas City.

I think the fact that the victim encouraged the BG to relax helped the situation. But the victim had to constantly read the BG and interpret his most likely responses. This would not be much different if the victim was the store clerk. Every scenario is different. Cool heads can prevail, but yes there is risk.

I would never engage in a quick draw and dodge contest unless I knew it was my only hope. And I hope it will never be.

Good comments. Keep thinking. Keep cool. Stay safe.
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Old April 10, 2011, 05:52 PM   #69
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I'm a cashier at a small convenience store. Not only is there always one armed cashier (usually two) let me just assure you of this. I don't want ANYONE shooting in my direction.
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Old April 10, 2011, 05:56 PM   #70
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armed cashier WOW! I am staying away from your place LOL. Good for the fella that restrained himself and did not take a life. I kinda like my dad's idea in that situation. If you are unarmed then just toss the money in his direction and run the other way.
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Old April 10, 2011, 07:17 PM   #71
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Luckily this is a privately owned non chain store. You'll never see a 711 clerk packing.


My boss is a 60 year old Korean guy who wears his NRA jacket and hat to work every day.

He takes his son and I shooting once a week, even pays for ammo.

He was in the army in Korea, very good trainer
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Old April 10, 2011, 11:40 PM   #72
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We have some mom and pop shops locally whom allow the clerks to be armed. Had 3 legit SD shootings during robberys in my county last year. All of them had good results. I still couldn't shoot someone who had a gun already pointed at another person.
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Old April 11, 2011, 01:40 AM   #73
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I hope you don't mind if I get in here with an other thought. If you want to be really impressed see if you can find a book titled "Fast and Fancy Shooting"
by Ed McGivern. I'm not real positive on the spelling of the name of the author
but that should get you there. I won't tell of some of the things that Ed has done with all sorts of handguns. But everything he has done has been documented.

I think I was pretty fast at one time, and I worked at it. But I wouldn't think of disarming a man by hand, and I've been trained to do so. Sure we all see the TV hero do fantastic things but let me clue you in on something. It happens because that is the way the script writer wrote it. If they killed the hero off, that would be the end of the show.

I liked John Wayne just as most of us did. I had a little extra reason. I saw him on a TV talk show one night and the MC asked him if it was possible for anyone to live up to his stature, to which Wayne said, " No man could ever measure up to his image.". When ask why, Wayne replied "I have two stunt men, four writers, a directer and a retake to redo it to make it better.".
At a time when most people were projecting a big image, John Wayne told it like it was. That goes a long ways.
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Old April 13, 2011, 03:43 PM   #74
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Quote:
A BG approaches you with a gun pointed at you and demands your wallet.
Well I would hand it over. But hell will be upon him if he turns his back on me. Some old timers use a "dummy wallet" with like 10 or 15 bucks and some old id stuff.

Some say toss this over the BGs shoulderm then when he turns to get it draw and shoot. hope you hit him and stop him before he shoots ya back.

If he wants only money let him have it, maybe he will OD problem solved.
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Old April 13, 2011, 10:48 PM   #75
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This whole thread is full of bravado and speculation.

Let's think about the laws (thinking KS here -- you research your own state):

You cannot use lethal force unless you justifiably fear for your life or that of others.

So as one suggested (I paraphrase): All hell breaks loose if he turns his back on me... Really? Shoot him in the back? The threat to your life will be hard to justify after he turns his back.

And another says you don't have a chance of shooting him if he even has his hand on his gun (paraphrased again, so don't nitpick me). So if he produces a gun you do not have a chance, so just comply with his wishes and hope he does not shoot (one writer suggests he will only shoot 25% of the time). Don't even try in this case, since he will always outgun you.

And if he does not produce a gun, you can't produce yours?

Hell, none of this makes sense. You can't use your gun unless he goes first, but you don't have a chance, so don't dare try.

So will someone please enlighten me. Just why in the world do you bother to carry?

I remain confused.
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