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Old October 25, 1998, 04:53 AM   #1
HS
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Is kicking the bad guys testicles somewhere to the region of his larynx un-gentlemanly ? Or say, hitting him in his adam apple a no no ? These are the only guaranteed ways of Winning I know of. Any other (dirty) tricks worth considering ? I am really talking small person vs big person here....HS

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Old October 25, 1998, 07:20 AM   #2
Macoute
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A quick rake to the eyes is usually startling to your opponent and will by you time for a follow up blow or time to beat feet.
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Old October 25, 1998, 08:54 AM   #3
Rich Lucibella
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Right thumb thru right eye socket tends to get their attention.
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Old October 25, 1998, 09:57 AM   #4
fal308
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Raking down the side of the leg with your foot works if already in contact. Can work if opponent is in front or behind you. Could also try kicking out the kneecap at an angle.
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Old October 25, 1998, 11:58 AM   #5
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HS,
If he's real, real close, a good head butt to the nose can buy you some time( followed of course with a strike to the adams apple and a front kick to the privates ) You can use the head butt is he's facing you, or if he's got you in a bear hug from behind. It usually results it the perp not being able to see clearly for a few seconds cause of the agony in his nose( dont forget the complimentary kick to the ribs, groin, or face while he's down )
Take care,
01paw
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Old October 25, 1998, 05:23 PM   #6
Kodiac
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This is why we all have a one hand opening knife clipped to a pocket...

If we are talking less than leathal - The legs are the hardest part of the body to defend. Target knees for a quick and painfull take down. One that will leave them limping badly for a long time.
I also like strikes to the eyes... As Rich pointed out - They will have something other than YOU on thier minds after such a hit.
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Old October 25, 1998, 05:54 PM   #7
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If my life was depending on it, I would do do whatever nessisary to live. (I.E. kick groin, punch adams apple, bite, pull hair, dig in finger nails) When it comes to your life, I dont think fighting nasty is against the rules.


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Old October 25, 1998, 10:06 PM   #8
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Each individual has a different threshold of tolerance for pain which may vary for that individual depending on their state of mind or narcotic influence. A kick to the balls does not guarentee dropping a man nor does a blow to the adam's apple (there may be enough O2 in the brain for him to continue fighting).

Shaded Dude is right. In a streetfight, there are no rules and the most important thing for you is to come out in one piece. Everything is fair game. Oh, don't pull hair when you can do a hair takedown instead.
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Old October 26, 1998, 02:06 AM   #9
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Kodiac....I agree about the Knife clipped to the pocket. There was an article in a magazine a while back about Ernest Emmerson. They discussed the fact that he teaches a knife fighting course in addition to making the knives. Along with the article were a couple of pictures of various techniques that he teaches. The one that they showed to counter a rear bear hug type of attack made me cringe. After being grabbed from the back the victim removed a pocket folder from its position clipped to the front pocket of her jeans. She opened the knife one handed and reached behind the leg of the attacker slashing the tendons behind the knee. It was a staged demonstration, but just the thought of that shook me, I can just imagine how disabling that would be. I think it is a good one to keep in your bag of tricks. I have practiced this move many times since reading the article.
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Old October 26, 1998, 06:52 AM   #10
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Hmmm, thanks for ALL the suggestions guys. There were a few I didn't think of that would came in handy. Guess the best thing to do is be aware of your surroudings and don't get into the hole in the first place. But having a plan of what to do is helpfull...HS
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Old October 26, 1998, 10:04 AM   #11
Harry Humphries
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All fights go to the ground if continued long enough. In our AFCQC fighting system we work with three disciplines: The gun, edged weapons and grappling.

If the encounter has closed to a point where presentation of the hand gun or availability of a hand gun is not a reality than one must be prepared to deal with the edged weapon, hopefully, legally carried. We espouse to the combat style folding knife which can be carried by men or women. The key feature of the folder must be that it has a liner lock, blade locking system that is not readily contacted in stressful situations. That is to say that any blade locking system that can be compressed by grip pressure should be avoided as the obvious potential outcome is not satisfactory. Blade shape, metal or polymer type, blade configuration - all of these things are more personal taste issues and not critical. Safe and sharp is where it's at.

If the edged weapon is not available or practical than one must be prepared to get inside of the kicking and punching distance- close and hang on to neck or chest area keeping the head down or protected.. Techniques easily taught all require this basic step. Kicks, limb locks, eye nose mouth attacks are all very effective once one has been properly exposed to their execution. Simply hanging or pulling / pushing to get the opponent off balance will work provided there is ferocity in the counter movement.

Make the opponent sorry he dealt with you it is a mind thing much more than a size issue. But avoidance is the real key keep aware of your surroundings and the confrontation will probably never happen.

HH


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Old October 26, 1998, 11:52 PM   #12
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HH and HS,
You are correct. Situational awareness is by far the important key to going home in one piece. HS, be aware that striking the throat will probably be considered lethal force (it is in GA), so be sure your life or health is on the line before taking such an action. My personal opinion would be that I DO NOT want to go to the ground with an attacker, unless (possibly) I've managed to get behind them. I have been actively training in a combat art for 4 years, but I believe in getting in, doing something nasty and traumatic, and getting out in a hurry. If they have to think about whether they want any more, it may be a good time to run.


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Old October 27, 1998, 09:44 AM   #13
Rich Lucibella
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Harry-
I know you're close with Ernie Emerson, who makes some of the finest tactical folders going. Several of us are Emerson knife owners.

But I'm curious as to the recommedation of carrying a folder, without mention of fixed blades. I don't want to turn this into a "what's better?" thread, as the answer is obvious. But I am curious about the lack of reference to the fixed blade alternative.

With the alternatives available today, from neck knives (which I deplore) to acceptable exposed carry belt knives, I would think you'd see more and more of these in your classes, especially among civilian students.
Regards,
Rich

[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited 10-27-98).]
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Old October 27, 1998, 10:11 AM   #14
Kodiac
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Sun Tzu had something to say about that, Spectre. He said (paraphrase) to strike first, and to strike hard enough that your enemy will not be able to strike back.
He was talking about large scale force on force battles... but you can see how this is easily applicable to a solitary man. Either on the street - or in business as a matter of fact.
The Art of War is the best book on the subject... seems like all other books just reiterate what he said ages ago - translating it in modern terms.
Kodiac's recomended reading list, number #7.
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Old October 27, 1998, 01:58 PM   #15
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I can't speak for Mr. Humphries, but for me the folder is more likely to be with me, even though, given a choice, I'd prefer a large fixed blade.

The reason is, I live in CA and on a day to day basis, at work and in public, a folder in a pocket won't draw any attention. A fixed blade of any kind has to be carried in the open. I can see people just moving away with a stare everywhere I go. That would make me inclined to leave it at home.

With a folder I know it will ALWAYS be with me and I think that is something that is true for a majority of people who chooses to follow that path.
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Old October 27, 1998, 02:12 PM   #16
Rich Lucibella
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Mute-
No argument from me. The knife that saves your life is the one that you have with you.

However, of late, I see fixed blades with increased frequency, both concealed and open. I now carry one daily, usually with the handle exposed, and people don't seem to give it a second glance. That's why I asked the question.

I recognize that you California residents are somewhat hobbled by the absurd gun/knife laws out there. You have my deepest sympathies.
Rich

[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited 10-27-98).]
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Old October 28, 1998, 05:50 AM   #17
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About folders, just a quote fom an Aussie," That's not a knife, THIS is a KNIFE"..grin...HS
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Old October 28, 1998, 09:17 AM   #18
Kodiac
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How come I knew he was going to say that?
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Old October 28, 1998, 11:28 AM   #19
Harry Humphries
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All good points with respect to the edged weapons discussion. Rich I too am a fixed blade aficionado, but if one considers the edged weapon as a defensive device, that device needs to be at hand at all times. It need be out of reach only that one time rendering all choices mute points.

While I will carry any one of my favorite Randall fixed blades in tactical or woodland gear, I certainly can't go to dinner or the office with a sheath hanging from my belt and it really causes havoc at the airport. So my folder of choice is one that is innoxious to the eye. Legal length and configuration is a must if you want to get it on an airplane. My personal choices are Emerson's custom knives, any one of them, as number one. From the production folders,(and there are many very good ones provided they are liner lock types), my first choice is Emerson's "Commander" which is designed to deploy as it is withdrawn from the scabbard or pocket, it is the fasted deploying folder I know of. Chris Carrachi's design that is or was made by Benchmade was also a very good folder, for my taste.

HH
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Old October 28, 1998, 03:06 PM   #20
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Speaking of knives and airports, I was recently not permitted to take my folder past security because it was considered a "melicious knife". Do you want to know what made it qualify as melicious? The lady actually told me that it was the point on the end of the knife and the serrations on the blade. Unbelievable! Apparently this is a new policy because she showed me their little procedures manual and under the 'Knives' category, the word 'serrations' was penciled in as not being allowed. (I think she was making up the part about the point at the end of the blade). Come on now, almost all 'emergency knives' have serrations on them don't they?

Oh, I travel very frequently and I still take my knife past security. They just don't know it.

I feel my rights being chisled away every day...
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Old October 28, 1998, 04:19 PM   #21
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"i know this isn't really the right thread for this, so please forgive me" mr. black, you're right. the government is taking more of our rights away everyday. it's
causing people who are normally law abiding
citizens to become outlaws, having to sneak a knife on a plane, etc.(glad i don't fly) it's a damn shame
that almost anything we do today can be against the law one way or another. it's begining to sound kinda like a police state.
i skirted the line of law and order in my day, that was by choice. now it's by necessity.

[This message has been edited by longhair (edited 10-28-98).]
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Old October 28, 1998, 07:36 PM   #22
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Kodiak, I would personally, after doing everything reasonably (per Sun Tzu, who advised that winning the battles without fighting was the mark of the great leaders) to avoid conflict, use lethal force immediately...except for the fact that our legal system is SO screwed, that I would rather take a little more risk initially-risking death or serious injury- and lessening my chance of dying a lingering death after downing my first three attackers and being raped by the other twelve in prison. The percentage of HIV-infected inmates is incredible, and those are only the ones who test positive. (FYI- the HIV virus cannot currently be detected in the body. The HIV test is actually testing for antibodies your body puts out to fight HIV. It can be up to 10 years before the HIV goes active and your body starts to combat it.)
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Old October 28, 1998, 08:11 PM   #23
Kodiac
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WHOA Spectre - I wasn't advocating galloping straight off to the far end of the "Use of Force" spectrum...
That would be awfully messy if I killed every one I tusseld with... would have killed more people than the plague...
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Old October 28, 1998, 10:35 PM   #24
Spectre
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Perhaps I overspoke, Kodiac. What I meant was, if I felt my life was in danger, (after doing my best to avoid dangerous situations, not escalate, etc) I would use lethal force immediately-EXCEPT for the current "PC" environment that may not take kindly to my having shot the individual who demanded my money in the alley. With the political situation as it stands, I am willing to face more immediate risk because I am SCARED TO DEATH of my skinny, boyish little white *ss going to jail.

[This message has been edited by Spectre (edited 10-28-98).]
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Old October 28, 1998, 11:38 PM   #25
Rob Pincus
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okay, I noticed this new Forum when I got back from Texas and managed to sit it out for 48 hours, BUT, kodiac.. The Plague?? that is bold my man.

CQC should be quick and brutal. I don't think any of us want to get into a greco-roman wrestling match with Bubba Badguy down at the honky-tonk. But Knives to me are one tiny baby step on the polite side of guns. Personally, I'd rather face the average punk with a gun than someone who knows how to use a knife. I know that a lot of you carry both a knife and a gun regularly, but I can't really think of a scenario where I would use the knife but not use the gun.
If I've got a knife and a gun, the knife is a tool, the gun is my defense. If a problem can be dealt with by the quick use of a grapple, push, pull, twist, or strike, great! Easier for everyone involved, but if it comes to weapon play, its the gun everytime. Knives are messy. Knife fighting is arguably harder to learn that unarmed techniques though. I'd rather spend the time training on gaining time/distance to draw and use a firearm.

Does anyone know cases where use of a knife has been considered less than lethal force?

If the situation is one where you can only carry a knife, then that is the situation.

As far as California goes, I was once pulled out of car at gunpoint during a routine traffice stop because the officer on the right side of the car noticed the clip of a SpyderCo on the outside of my jeans pocket. The knife had a 1.5" blade and I had specifically bought it *Because* I was going to be in southern California for an extended period of time. I still got hassled. It went from "why were you speeding" to.. "Get out of the car slowly, keep your hands where I can see them...". Then their search of my wallet turned up my valid CCW permits from other states, which made things worse instead of better. They became obsessed with the wherabouts of my handguns. They couldn't grasp that they could've been 1500 miles aways and I would still be carrying the permits.
Personally, I know that I never would've been
bothered if I'd've had a PPK in an IWB holster under my jacket. (or if I hadn't been speeding


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