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Old April 1, 2011, 01:54 PM   #1
Jack_Bauer24
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1919A4 & M2HB Trigger System

I've been wanting an answer to this question for some time so I'll start here. If you had a 1919A4 or M2HB Semi Autos could you install a electric type motor to control the trigger function like replacing the trigger or butterfly lever with a hand crank? My personal feeling is no since with a flip of a switch you could fire more than a round with one flip. The part that kinda ties all this in is the hand crank as there is only your hand movement and the rate of fire can reach that of full autos and the crank is legal. So there you have my question.
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Old April 1, 2011, 05:24 PM   #2
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The hand crank is legal, because a certain degree of crank movement equals one pull of the trigger. An electric motor, would not be, unless you set it up so that each press of the button only fired one round.
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Old April 1, 2011, 10:39 PM   #3
chasep255
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I thought of that once. I personally like the idea of setting a hand crank up to a pump which turns it really quickly for you. Another idea I have had is making it so that the gun forcibly reset the trigger after every shot for you. This would make it so all you have to do i maintain pressure and the gun will keep on firing and resetting the trigger to the forward position.
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Old April 1, 2011, 10:55 PM   #4
JT-AR-MG42
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That last idea sounds kinda close to the Akins 10-22 stocks that ATF retroactively shut down. No modifications to the gun at all.

I have always wondered if making a 'recoil operated' firing system for personal use is different than marketing them for sale. Just can't afford to be the test case. They win.

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Old April 2, 2011, 10:43 AM   #5
Willie Lowman
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Quote:
if making a 'recoil operated' firing system for personal use
Is it something the ATF would/could identify as a machine gun? Then it's a machine gun.

Is making a machine gun (without being a SOT) illegal? Yes.

If you have an idea, submit it to the tech branch and hold your breath.

Last edited by Willie Lowman; April 2, 2011 at 01:05 PM.
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Old April 2, 2011, 01:34 PM   #6
JohnKSa
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Quote:
Another idea I have had is making it so that the gun forcibly reset the trigger after every shot for you. This would make it so all you have to do i maintain pressure and the gun will keep on firing and resetting the trigger to the forward position.
This would not be legal. Since the gun is doing all the work and you're only "maintaining pressure" it's not going to get approved.

The various bump-firing add-ons are legal because the shooter is actually pulling the trigger for each shot--albeit by pulling the gun forward rather than pulling the trigger backward. The Akins went a tiny bit too far and had a spring pull the gun back foward and when the ATF finally caught on they reversed their initial decision and banned it.
Quote:
If you had a 1919A4 or M2HB Semi Autos could you install a electric type motor to control the trigger function like replacing the trigger or butterfly lever with a hand crank?
I think you will find BATF highly resistant to the idea of installing an electrically operated trigger/motor to operate the trigger in a semi-auto.
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Old April 2, 2011, 06:16 PM   #7
chasep255
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Quote:
This would not be legal. Since the gun is doing all the work and you're only "maintaining pressure" it's not going to get approved.
So what. If the definition says that 1 shot per pull of trigger and since the trigger is moving back and fourth for each shot how would this not fit the definition.
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I have mostly non-sporting firearms
In NJ, technically speaking, ALL guns are illegal
Also in my state there is such thing as a Class III BB gun :barf:
Happy to say that despite the NJ AWB I still manage to make my guns look scary
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Old April 2, 2011, 07:29 PM   #8
PTK
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We just explained that to you - if "maintains pressure" is all a shooter needs to do, that setup is, essentially, an auto-sear. It's a machinegun, plain and simple.
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Old April 2, 2011, 09:44 PM   #9
JohnKSa
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Quote:
So what. If the definition says that 1 shot per pull of trigger and since the trigger is moving back and fourth for each shot how would this not fit the definition.
Because it doesn't fit the definition as it has been and is interpreted by BATF and the courts. You can contact the BATF and get an official read directly from them if you wish.

From past rulings the BATF says that the key is that the SHOOTER must be what operates the trigger once for each shot. If a spring or or some other mechanism is what operates the trigger then it's not going to be legal.

The shooter must do something each time the gun fires--he must physically operate some part of the firearm by manually moving it a noticeable amount for each time a shot is discharged.

If you can make a single movement and then remain motionless while the gun continues firing then it doesn't matter how the mechanism accomplishes that operation--doesn't matter if the trigger moves each time the gun fires or stays motionless against your finger. The firearm is a machinegun if it fires more than one shot without your having to do anything other than move once.
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Old April 3, 2011, 09:47 AM   #10
chasep255
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Quote:
If you can make a single movement and then remain motionless
I don't think you really understand what I am describing. The device would actually force the trigger along with the shooters finger forward when the bolt comes back for each shot. This way the shooter need only maintain backwards pressure on the trigger while the gun takes care of the moving your finger forward part. Maybe the rate of fire won't be quite FA and your finger might get a bit sore.
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I have mostly non-sporting firearms
In NJ, technically speaking, ALL guns are illegal
Also in my state there is such thing as a Class III BB gun :barf:
Happy to say that despite the NJ AWB I still manage to make my guns look scary
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Old April 3, 2011, 09:57 AM   #11
Willie Lowman
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I see what you are saying but I don't think the ATF would let it fly.
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Old April 3, 2011, 12:17 PM   #12
chasep255
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It would make more sense if they declared this stuff as an AOW since they are technically semi-auto. At least then someone could get one at a reasonable price. Also I think it is complete BS how they regard even semi-auto open bolt guns as machine guns.
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I have mostly non-sporting firearms
In NJ, technically speaking, ALL guns are illegal
Also in my state there is such thing as a Class III BB gun :barf:
Happy to say that despite the NJ AWB I still manage to make my guns look scary
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Old April 3, 2011, 12:56 PM   #13
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Quote:
Also I think it is complete BS how they regard even semi-auto open bolt guns as machine guns.
Its because of the phrase "easily converted to..." in the law. Open bolt guns are more easily converted into full auto than closed bolt guns.
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Old April 3, 2011, 10:37 PM   #14
JohnKSa
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Quote:
This way the shooter need only maintain backwards pressure on the trigger while the gun takes care of the moving your finger forward part.
If YOU take care of moving your finger forward then it's not a machinegun. If the gun does it for you then it is.

If you can maintain pressure on the trigger and the gun takes care of everything else that needs to happen for the gun to keep firing until you release pressure then the gun is a machinegun.

Again, you can contact BATF for an official read, but the Akins case should be ample evidence that what you're describing isn't going to get past BATF.
Quote:
Its because of the phrase "easily converted to..." in the law.
This is also why electrically fired semi-autos won't get approved.
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