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Old April 1, 2011, 11:27 AM   #51
Eagle0711
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This boils down to common sense, and knowing your gun. When carrying my Glock I'm always aware of anything touching the trigger. Even with the best holster your shirt can get wrapped up in the trigger guard and cause it to fire.

Practice is necessary for muscle memory, because if your stressed you will act as you've trainned.

I'm totally confident carrying a Glock with a chambered round. Just be aware.
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Old April 1, 2011, 07:22 PM   #52
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Steve,

There is nothing I or anyone else can say that you haven't already said to yourself. So I'll just let it go with, I'm very happy that you and your wife are both OK.
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Old April 2, 2011, 07:45 AM   #53
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I just did some experimenting with the soft holster I referred to earlier. This forum often leads me to do experiments, if not to any new revelations.

My holster is made of real leather and is an inside the waistband style. It has an extra piece of leather around the edge and in the area where the clip is attached but there is no metal except for the clip itself. I prefer clips over loops so it can be used without a belt (while wearing suspenders). The clip holds it very securely, believe me, but holstering the gun is problematic. That is enough to make me want a different one, which would probably be more expensive.

I tried this using the two and only guns I have that would fit and I wasn't able to get any movement in the trigger at all. One gun is a Ruger P345, the other a Walther P5. My drill for holstering them is to put my thumb behind the hammer, so it is easy to feel any movement. However, the reason I do that is mainly to prevent the slide from moving. I wouldn't expect the hammer to move and not the slide, but obviously it could happen.

Now, the funny thing is that the leather is soft enough to fold and get in front of the trigger but only vertically, not horizontally. There isn't enough spare leather for there to be a vertical fold, if you follow me. But, on top of that, the leather is not stiff enough at that point to offer enough resistence to the trigger, enough to move the trigger. The leather isn't all that thick but probably not as thin as some of the suede leather holsters you can buy. The holster is quite comfortable to wear and the .45 Ruger is more comfortable than the 9mm Walther. How about that! And it doesn't squeak, either.

The entire problem and possibility could be prevented with a holster that entended up another two inches on the inside, even using soft leather, and it might even be more comfortable.
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Old April 2, 2011, 07:56 AM   #54
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For me, this thread is an eye opener. And, for me, the evidence is strong. A Glock that is sans a manual safety it simply a dangerous firearm. I will never have one.
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Old April 2, 2011, 08:30 AM   #55
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If that holster had the doubled up reinforcement at the mouth, which keeps it open for re holstering, this probably would never have happened.

Single layer leather holsters are pliable and tend to collapse even when they are dry and in perfect condition, add dampness, and catch an edge with the muzzle on holstering, and you can see where it might go. Look at that pic again, and think about what I just said.

If youre using a holster made like that, especially one thats made for IWB, or under the belt carry, you may want to think about moving up.
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Old April 2, 2011, 08:34 AM   #56
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Quote:
And, for me, the evidence is strong. A Glock that is sans a manual safety it simply a dangerous firearm.
The only thing that makes the Glock unsafe, is its user.

What happened here, could easily happened with a SIG, Beretta, S&W, or any gun with a DA trigger. Could easily have happened to a 1911 with the thumb safety disengaged, which isnt all that uncommon.
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Old April 2, 2011, 08:49 AM   #57
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Not 'just as easily' AK103K. We'd need to know his trigger pull weight and that question has yet to be answered. If it was something like a 3.5 match trigger, it would require only half as much force as my issue G22, at 7.5 pounds.

Then there's the matter of travel. A full-length DA pull like the Beretta, Sig22X Series or the S&W Sigma simply requires a longer, more consistent (not to mention heavier) pressure stroke than a stock, Glock trigger.
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Old April 2, 2011, 09:06 AM   #58
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If the gun and he did what I think happened, even a "heavy" trigger pull probably wouldnt have stopped this if the trigger were to be caught up in the holster like the pic.

Youre thinking of putting light pressure on a trigger, like with control with your finger, Im talking of shoving the gun into the holster with your body weight, or at the very least, the force of your whole arm behind it.

If he was accustomed to doing it, he most likely wouldnt have hesitated, and just pushed the gun home, as he'd done it on a regular basis before.
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Old April 2, 2011, 09:08 AM   #59
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Quote:
Youre thinking of putting light pressure on a trigger, like with control with your finger, Im talking of shoving the gun into the holster with your body weight, or at the very least, the force of your whole arm behind it.
Nope, we're talking about the same thing.
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Old April 2, 2011, 09:17 AM   #60
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What happened here, could easily happened with a SIG, Beretta, S&W, or any gun with a DA trigger. Could easily have happened to a 1911 with the thumb safety disengaged, which isnt all that uncommon.
It's also easily avoided with those designs by pushing the gun into the holster with your thumb behind the hammer on a DA or using your thumb to hold the safety up on the 1911 as you holster.
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Old April 2, 2011, 09:44 AM   #61
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Thats true, and that is an advantage with those type guns.

The 1911's, only if youre aware the safety was off though. A proper 1911 holster usually protects the thumb safety from your body/clothing, and wont let you get your thumb on it, until its come clear. Still, they always seem to find a way to get knocked off, even in the good holsters.

I really think the problem here was a poor choice of holster, and complacency that comes with familiarity.

He obviously did "something" wrong in holstering the gun at some point, to get the side caved in like that. Having tried similar holsters early on, I know what they are like and what problems they generate, especially if you are the least bit active. I was always readjusting the gun (pushing it back down) throughout the day, as every time you sit or squat close to something, the muzzle can catch and force the gun up, and even out of the holster. Do it enough, and it becomes second nature, and done without thought. Not good with something that needs attention paid to it, and especially if youre constantly handling it.
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Old April 2, 2011, 11:36 AM   #62
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Incidents such as this remind me why I carry a 1911. I have two mechanical safety devices, either of which would have prevented this from occurring.
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Old April 2, 2011, 11:52 AM   #63
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NEGLIGENCE

The failure to use reasonable care. The doing of something which a reasonably prudent person would not do, or the failure to do something which a reasonably prudent person would do under like circumstances.


Was the fold in the holster noticeable?
Is it reasonable to notice the condition of your holster?
Would a prudent person who noticed the fold in the holster continue to use the holster?

If all the above answers are yes, then using the holster would be negligent.

As the OP said:
Quote:
This truly brings home the importance of taking care of your equipment and ensuring it’s in proper working order. Hopefully you can learn from my situation and prevent an accident like this from happening to you
Regardless, this post is an opportunity for readers to learn that they should inspect their equipment, not just the firearm and ammunition; for proper condition and function on a regular basis.
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Old April 2, 2011, 12:08 PM   #64
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Quote:
Incidents such as this remind me why I carry a 1911. I have two mechanical safety devices, either of which would have prevented this from occurring.
If youre relying on them simply because they are there, and dont check them both for function on a regular basis, and dont use a proper holster as well, you very well may have the same issue as this boy did.

If you werent paying attention, and the thumb safety were off, the grip safety would be of no help here, as it would be disengaged if you were gripping the gun, and that light, SA trigger is even more unforgiving.


Quote:
Regardless, this post is an opportunity for readers to learn that they should inspect their equipment, not just the firearm and ammunition; for proper condition and function on a regular basis.
There ya go.
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Old April 2, 2011, 01:00 PM   #65
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Threads merged.

There are many pistols on the market with either no external safety at all or some sort of trigger safety as the sole external safety of the firearm. When these guns are being carried, the holster is part of the safety system of the handgun and should be treated as such.

When carrying a pistol like the ones described above, the holster should be carefully chosen.
  • It should completely cover the trigger and triggerguard. That will allow the edge of the holster around the trigger guard to be supported by the gun and will keep it from being pushed inward and folding/creasing. That will not only protect the trigger, it will also help the holster maintain its integrity over time.
  • It should be stiff enough in the region of the triggerguard to completely prevent the trigger from being manipulated by the holster or an outside influence. The edge should be reinforced or should be thick enough that it can't be folded or pushed inward enough to contact the trigger.
  • It should hold the gun securely enough that the pistol can't easily be bumped/pushed/squeezed up out of the holster far enough to expose the trigger/triggerguard.
As part of the safety system, it should be checked occasionally to make sure it is still "operational" in all the above respects.

Holsters WILL wear out and it's best to determine that a holster is at the end of its duty life during a regular inspection as opposed to by hearing an unexpected loud noise--either an unintentional discharge or the clatter of your gun hitting the floor after a fall from a worn holster.
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Old April 2, 2011, 03:48 PM   #66
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The holster in question here, is one of those "one size fits most" types, and that in itself, is part of the problem. Most things advertised as do all, or fits all, dont do, or fit, to many things, well.

Your best bet is to get a holster made and fitted for the gun.

Glocks arent the only gun to have accidental discharges, and if anything, its probably more of a numbers thing with them than anything else.

At this point, not even counting those in civilian hands, with all the police and other agencies that issue/authorize them, there are probably just more of them floating around, many of which are in the hands of people that arent "gun" people, and its just another tool on their belt.

To be perfectly honest, those people are probably better off with the Glock, than a 1911. I'd be willing to bet, you'd see a lot more unintended discharges with condition 1 1911's in the hands of the nations police forces, than you do with Glocks.

Regardless what the gun is, if you arent properly trained, assuming youre even trainable at all (its not just your basic lay people, Ive seen some pretty scary "trained" cops and military people with guns), its not going to matter what you have. Add to that, being cheap, and buying one holster, for all your handguns, and the race is on.
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Old April 3, 2011, 09:47 AM   #67
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Yes, its obvious the holster was badly worn/creased and should have not been in use.
It's also obvious that if it were to have been a style of pistol with an external safety, this probably wouldn't have happened since the safety would have had to not be set and the trigger also pulled.
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Old April 3, 2011, 10:41 AM   #68
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Its plain that if this guy had paid the least bit of attention to his gear this wouldn't have happened. Im sure he crammed is pistol in the holster without a second look or though.

Stupid hurts and sometimes kills, its not the guns fault or the holsters the operator was clearly careless in checking his equipment and in verifying that he had placed the gun into the holster correctly.
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Old April 4, 2011, 10:48 AM   #69
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Quote:
Incidents such as this remind me why I carry a 1911. I have two mechanical safety devices, either of which would have prevented this from occurring.
Absolutely right. Those Glocks without safetys do not seem safe to me. Stuff happens. The Army and Colt knew what they were doing when they designed the safety system on the 1911. A slide safety at a minimum.
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Old April 4, 2011, 03:38 PM   #70
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Quote:
Could easily have happened to a 1911 with the thumb safety disengaged, which isnt all that uncommon.
Have to squeze the handle on mine it has 2 safeties.

Did he get a new holster? Anyone owns glocks recommend a good one for this person?
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Old April 4, 2011, 05:41 PM   #71
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Quote:
A slide safety at a minimum.
Can you explain?

Quote:
Have to squeze the handle on mine it has 2 safeties.
Gripping the gun disengages the grip safety.

Now youre down to one.

Pushing the gun into the holster takes the grip safety out of it, unless you do something out of the norm.

Quote:
Anyone owns glocks recommend a good one for this person?
I would recommend that anyone not use that holster. This isnt a "Glock" issue, its a holster issue.
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Old April 4, 2011, 11:23 PM   #72
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I find it annoying that someone will buy a gun for conceal carry and then cheap out on a holster. Sure i could buy a $700 gun and a $16 holster. But i'd rather buy a $656 gun and a $60 holster. I mean its a very important part of your conceal carry combination, so it should be quality make and generally if you spend in the $60-80 range for a holster your going to get quality/comfort/long life out of it. Im a huge crossbreed fan, and while your not gonna find a 20 dollar holster from them, you know when you get a holster from them its going to last and its going to be comfortable. Not to mention great retention and its going to fit your gun like a glove.
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Old April 5, 2011, 02:23 PM   #73
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Quote:
Pushing the gun into the holster takes the grip safety out of it, unless you do something out of the norm.
Dont have to push it down after it is in mine and the retention that goes over the gun is snapped, it dont ride free and move around.

Quote:
I would recommend that anyone not use that holster. This isnt a "Glock" issue, its a holster issue.
Didnt say it was a glock issue, I asked if anyone recommended qa holster for his glock, the one I use wont work for him and I dont have any glocks but if I did I would get a holster made for that gun. Own a glock? ok with me, I dont have any plastic fantastics in my safe I prefer all metal. it is just me it dont mean they are inferior or unable to do the job. Just not my pref.

Heck you even said tha same thing:

Quote:
Your best bet is to get a holster made and fitted for the gun

chill pill in order
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Old April 5, 2011, 03:15 PM   #74
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Quote:
I find it annoying that someone will buy a gun for conceal carry and then cheap out on a holster.
I see it every day. Holster, belt, and ammunition are essential parts of the setup. If any of those elements is lacking, the whole setup is suspect.

So, when I hear someone saying they want to carry a gun, but they "don't want to spend a lot of money" on ammunition or the holster, it makes me worry.

Furthermore, as others have mentioned, it is the responsibility of the owner to verify that all those elements are in good working order on a regular basis.
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Old April 5, 2011, 05:19 PM   #75
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lessons learned... carry a pistol that has a mechanical safety, preferably two like a 1911

I know tons of people carry "safe action" pistols like Glock's but this isnt the first time I've heard of them going off without direct intervention of mr finger or mr brain dead handling.
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