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Old March 30, 2011, 04:39 PM   #51
threegun
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An off-duty prison officer was assaulted yesterday after gang members tried to steal his Harley Davidson motorbike in Kaikohe.
Quote:
When the men left the saloon, they exchanged words with four men outside the bar, said Fairfax police Sgt. Chris Morin. One of the guards was then punched in the face, sending him falling backward.
Quote:
but said investigators didn�t believe the animosity had anything to do with his role as a prison guard.
Biker, Unfortunately not a single link you provided suggested that the bad guys were committing the act because of the CO job. Bar fights, robbery, cycle theft, and court testimony are some that come to mind.

In your mind how does ordinary crime that happens to a CO equal an increase in danger from former inmates?

Quote:
That should be enough to prove that CO's face danger on the outside.
BTW I never said CO's don't face danger outside prison. We all do. Crime happens to everyone.

So please provide proof that the danger CO's face on the outside is higher due to their job. Try reading the linked articles next time.
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Old March 30, 2011, 05:15 PM   #52
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Where's your statistics to prove that ex-cons only attack COs who abuse them?
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Old March 30, 2011, 06:43 PM   #53
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Back to the subject at hand, what's the reports on the Ruger SR9c?
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Old March 30, 2011, 07:14 PM   #54
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As I've stated in other posts...

I believe squairly that Corrections officers, and detention deputies are a level of law enforcement. Like off duty police officers, off duty corrections officers face similar if not greater personal danger as a result of their duties.

First off There are no good guys within the prison/jail population as there are in the community at large. Corrections officers are imersed in a society of people who have already served notice of their anti-social bend. Further corrections officers are outnumbered by the hundreds to one. In order to maintain a safe productive work envioronment for officers, staff, and inmates these officers must enforce rule's and laws and control violence without firearms for the most part.

Given the proliferation of gangs within the prison proper, and their reach and ability to effect peoples life outside the prison. I believe that Corrections officers should be allowed by law to be armed.

OK End of rant. As a corrections officer or detention deputy should make every effort to have the ability to protect himself and his family. I think the kind, calibre, or make of his weapon should be personal, and not taken lightly.

A poster mentioned that a corrections officer who had not abused anyone would have nothing to worry about. Thats just silly. As I mentioned a gang may want to send a message by harming a random or particular officer. Again I may have a better understanding of the criminal element based on my few years in law enforcement. Criminals DO NOT!!! follow the same linier logic that most of us would call normal. More than a few inmates suffer from various emotional, and or mental disorders and may be a danger to all law enforcement but particularly corrections officers. Remember... The only thing keeping these people in that big gray place and away from all of us is the corrections officers.

Keeping the post on track about firearms. I was fortunate to live in a state that recognized these issues, and corrections officers, local, county, and state were sworn peace officers. The local officers I knew and shot with mostly carried the same off duty .38 spl chiefs, det specials, and sp101' s as the local cops carried. (NYC department of Corrections) The Dept issued 4" HB model 10 revolvers to officers in transport, and I think 2" model 10's to investigators. But I believe all officers had the choice to use their own personal gun. They also had long arms, shot guns, and automatic weapons. Later when the NYPD transitioned to automatic pistols, so the the Department of corrections, and I saw Glock 19's as the replacements for the 4" model 10's. The State Dept of corrections I believe were also issued model 10's. Most of the guys I knew from State purchase their own model 10's. Not sure about the various counties.


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Old March 30, 2011, 07:26 PM   #55
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We are slated to transition to a Glock 23. Seems like an ok gun, little big for what I want and how I want to carry. I was thinking the Kahr, now I'm looking at the SR9c. I figure I'd carry the 10 round in the gun, and the 17 as a mag change. I figure the SR9c has a mag disconnect, one feature I do not like.
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Old March 30, 2011, 07:45 PM   #56
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Where's your statistics to prove that ex-cons only attack COs who abuse them?
Don't have any. As I stated in my post it was just my thought. I'm curious as I can't recall a single time in my life of ever hearing of a released convict attacking a CO he recognized while off duty. Still waiting for the stats to support the claim.

Understand it doesn't matter to me which way this goes. If I'm wrong so be it. I will be enlightened. However when folks call me names for asking a question it becomes somewhat personal.
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Old March 31, 2011, 12:40 AM   #57
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There was a video of a NJ CO sitting on the front steps of his brownstone when an ex-inmate attacked him. CO was armed, killed ex inmate. No, I don't remember where the story was from except the state and I don't have a link. Was actually shown it in briefing once. I also knew a murderer who did 25 flat who would NEVER attack a female CO - he'd wait until the next male officer came by to attack. He's been out for a few years now, left the state, have no idea what he's done since then.
1700 inmates on one yard? I'll believe it - last yard I ran as a Sgt had 1200 with 32 staff, including me.
We have always had the same carry authority as any LEO in AZ, but the law changes makes that pretty meaningless except when I go to school for my son.
Carry what you are comfortable with and can shoot well. If a 38 revolver is what you do best with, then carry it. Better six well aimed shots than 32 randoms into a condo behind the BG. practice reloads with good speedloaders.
For those who haven't been inside the wire involuntarily, contact your local DOC for a tour - they can be arranged.
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Old March 31, 2011, 05:48 AM   #58
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Yep, all locks open, free movement. Often my yard 2 was pulled, leaving me alone. Responders available if called? Sure. Do you know how long two minutes can be?
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Old March 31, 2011, 04:28 PM   #59
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Quote:
Where's your statistics to prove that ex-cons only attack COs who abuse them?

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Don't have any. As I stated in my post it was just my thought. I'm curious as I can't recall a single time in my life of ever hearing of a released convict attacking a CO he recognized while off duty. Still waiting for the stats to support the claim.

Understand it doesn't matter to me which way this goes. If I'm wrong so be it. I will be enlightened. However when folks call me names for asking a question it becomes somewhat personal.
Yep, and when you imply that (potential) victims are somehow to blame for whatever trouble may find them, they take it personally as well.

I expect that there are no readily available statistics to prove the point one way or another. The folks that actually work in that situation probably have a better grasp of what really goes on than someone who never has, I suspect.

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Old April 1, 2011, 12:05 AM   #60
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morel of the story is we all need to be prepared.god bless anyone that works in any form of law enforcement.
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Old April 1, 2011, 07:04 AM   #61
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Yep, and when you imply that (potential) victims are somehow to blame for whatever trouble may find them, they take it personally as well
Sorry you took it like that. I was simply asking a question and giving the only reason I would have (if I was incarcerated) for wanting to get back at someone doing their job as an CO.

I suspect that the danger of an ex inmate seeking revenge on a recognized CO in public is very low. This is why we have only one account (and here-say at that) of this actually happening. We have many more (here-say) reports to the contrary, reports of released inmates being polite.

The evidence provided in fact does suggest that CO's are just as likely as regular civilians to be victims of crime. This alone is reason enough to justify carrying everywhere.

GarryC's encounter which ended his going to town unarmed seems more to do with the up tick in crime and gangs than it does with animosity due to the CO job as evidenced by the vast majority of former inmates who do nothing after release.

As to answer the OP's question.....
Quote:
What say you to a KAHR CW9 or CW40?
I owned a CW9 and it was a good little gun. I currently own a PM9 and it fits a good niche. That said if I was facing potential gang threat I would opt for a hi capacity firearm like my G19. Since gangs often hang out in numbers the higher capacity could come into play.

It would be unnecessary to change anything as far as preparation against an ex inmate who does wish to exact revenge as I would already be prepared for the gang risk. This provided that I already use excellent situational awareness and remain in condition yellow as often as possible.
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Old April 1, 2011, 10:59 AM   #62
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Sorry you took it like that. I was simply asking a question and giving the only reason I would have (if I was incarcerated) for wanting to get back at someone doing their job as an CO.
Yes, but you are thinking like a straight person.

Someone that thinks like you is despised and seen only as a "mark", victim, or other terminology in the mind of a criminal. They really don't think like you and the non-criminal world. It's a very warped, self-centered, way of thinking that occupies the criminal mind.

Kindness is a weakness.

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Old April 1, 2011, 03:45 PM   #63
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Biker, I understand what you are saying. Kinda like trying to understand why a serial killer does what they do. If your brain isn't disfunctional its hard to understand.

Quote:
Someone that thinks like you is despised and seen only as a "mark", victim, or other terminology in the mind of a criminal.
Now this suggests that I don't fully understand what criminals are capable of. Remember my question of why, followed by my answer of abuse, in no way means I don't think that bad guys do crap for no reason. As I said in my entire life, much of which has been spent dealing with guns and less than stellar pawn clientel, I don't recall ever hearing of a CO being targeted by a released inmate simply because they remembered them from inside. No evidence to indicate otherwise has been presented. I'm left wondering why all the worry by off duty CO's about this particular threat?

BTW to date I have yet to be victimized by those you speak of.
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Old April 1, 2011, 04:22 PM   #64
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Threegun,

It seems that you are a "thinker". Be careful, or they will promote you to warden.

I don't much care about the why, as it holds no interest to me. I would much rather deal with the here and now and then move on. There were a few cases of CO's being targeted on the outside, IIRC, in the links I posted. Not that there isn't a "bad apple" in the CO Barrel now and again, I just don't think abuse or being "dirty" is the reason for a lot of things inmates do to staff on the inside or the outside.

I've managed to make enemies on the inside. Thinking like a straight person, I don't think anyone is after me. That does not mean however that an ex-inmate won't take the time to settle the score on the outside if the opportunity presents itself.

All one can do LEO, CO, or John Q Public is to be prepared as best they can. Given the nature of the people CO's are around daily increases the danger and liklihood of something happening, even if it never comes to fruition.

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Old April 1, 2011, 04:45 PM   #65
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Unfortunately, unlike a cop, I have to follow all the restrictions. Fact is, off duty I'm in more danger than a cop. A lot more criminals know me by face.

Why would any former jailbird want to harm the guards after they have been released? The only reason I can think of is to get paybacks for abuse.
Or perhaps paybacks for perceived "abuse". Perhaps Billy the ex-con has a grudge against Mr. CO becuase Mr. CO confiscated his Playboys or because Mr. CO is the one that caught him with the weapon that got another few years tacked on to his sentence. What you or I are willing to get violent about and what the average inmate is willing to get violent about are probably very different things. Remember, these are people who have already demonstrated that they have trouble being a productive member of society (hence the high percentage of repeat offenders). What you and I would probably perceive as Mr. CO just doing his job might very well be perceived by Billy the ex-con as having been "wronged". Whether you intended it that way or not, your initial statement did come off as a veiled accusation.

I suspect that you're thinking the same as I do: if I were an ex-con, the last thing I'd want to do is something that will get me sent back to prison. Indeed, this is how most normal people think, but then again most normal people don't get thrown in the slammer to begin with.
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Old April 1, 2011, 05:31 PM   #66
garryc
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I don't recall ever hearing of a CO being targeted by a released inmate simply because they remembered them from inside.
Who said "targeted", target of opportunity maybe.


Back to the subject, I'm taking a shine to this:


Last edited by garryc; April 1, 2011 at 06:36 PM.
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Old April 1, 2011, 06:40 PM   #67
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Garrry,

I carry a Colt Combat Commander in .45 ACP. In it there are eight rounds counting the most important one that's up the snoot. The load is a 200gr Hornady HP-XTP, 6.1gr of Winchester-231 and a CCI LP primer. I've chronographed this load at 832 fps. I don't care how big the bad guy is, two of these just above the belt buckle and he will be a gut holding, quivering mass for a little while. Then he will be real quiet, just like a good boy should be.

There are three rules to follow. Your better judge by twelve than carried by six. Do it right and there will only be one liar in court. Your number one job is to go home at night.

Do it right.
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Old April 1, 2011, 06:47 PM   #68
garryc
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I've carried the commander in a jackass rig, or my GP-100. That requires an outer garment, which I don't like to wear if I don't have to. I'm a T-shirt and jeans type. That and the jackass rig takes a minute to put on, I want to just tuck and go.


Likely I'll get it them Ruger will come out with an SR40c, the way it works

Last edited by garryc; April 1, 2011 at 07:11 PM.
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Old April 3, 2011, 06:45 AM   #69
threegun
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Who said "targeted", target of opportunity maybe.
Garryc, Never heard of a CO being attacked off duty by a former inmate they were charged with babysitting while the former inmate was free in public.

Hope thats better for you.


Quote:
There were a few cases of CO's being targeted on the outside, IIRC, in the links I posted
Nope. There was a single case in which a former inmate did a drive by shooting. Problem here is officials were unsure whether is was due to the CO's job or the pending testimony someone else in the house was about to give.

Quote:
Be careful, or they will promote you to warden.
Biker, I wouldn't do your job for anything in the world. I made a trip as a high school student to Raiford Penitentiary for a criminal justice field trip. It was the spookiest thing I have ever done. We witnessed the carnage via photos of the violence they do to each other (and I'm sure you guys as well). They showed us the improvised weapons used. We toured a cell block with guys whistling and wanting to have a piece of your angus.

Between this experience and some reality tv shows depicting prison life, I would never voluntarily place myself in that environment for any amount of pay.

While I suspect your concern over inmates coming after you (in society) is over rated I commend your courage and watermelon sized man jewels for being able to do a job so dangerous.

Remember I have no skin in this game. This started as a question I asked. Then I was attacked with name calling and such. What started as a simple question has become a quest to prove that I'm not the things posted and in fact am correct in my opinion. It was not intentional on my part to insult anyone.
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Old April 3, 2011, 07:55 AM   #70
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Get More and never go hungry again!

I live in the midwest so we have alot of variation in our clothes over the year. I need to carry deeply concealed for my specific scenario so my requirements may be different from your and I need different tools for the job.

Best way to break it down is get at least 3 pistols over time tailored to your needs.


1. Sub-Compact:
For those summer days you want a muscle shirt and shorts.
Good Options - KelTec P380, Ruger LCP. Throw these in your back pocket in a Nemesis holster and you'll forget you have it (looks just like your wallet).

These things are smaller and lighter than most of our wallets and .380 with 7 shots is better than nothing. Revolvers would be in the 38 Spcl size here.

2. Compact: For fall and spring when I'm wearing pullovers throughout the day. Typically I'm going to carry IWB and not in a pocket so i can afford a little thickness. Good Options - Just about any Compact under the size of a full size combat pistol...Glock 23 etc, 1911 Officer Type. You can go full size here but I'm more about comfort so shave an inch off the barrel, mag, and lose 10 oz. Ruger SP 101 is an awesome revolver in here.

3. Full Size: For Late Fall through early spring. I know i'm going to have lots of layers to comfortably carry concealed OWB.

Full size Glock 22 etc, 1911 Full Size, you name it. These can be stowed away under T-shirts and the like during summer even, but for me this is just a break down of what I'm comfortable with. Break out that Anaconda and practice your best "that's not a gun, this is a gun" line.

Point is, if you have the right tool to fit different applications that fit YOUR needs, you will be more likely to use it day in and day out. You can't drive a nail with a screwdriver, you need a hammer for that...know what I mean?

Never got into the pocket pistols "shoot and run", 32's and 25's. I'd rather just run.

Last edited by Chainman; April 3, 2011 at 08:02 AM.
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Old April 3, 2011, 04:20 PM   #71
garryc
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Re-evaluate

I have a 3" GP-100 stainless. It does seem to tuck well even without a holster. So, what about that gun in a Cross Breed Holster? Does that holster tend to flatten things out?


It has a black sight held on with a drive pin. I wonder if I can get orange for it. It's not a regular GP-100 sight.
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Old April 4, 2011, 07:36 AM   #72
threegun
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Garry how about a fanny pack? Conceal whatever size gun you want.
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Old April 4, 2011, 09:40 AM   #73
garryc
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Garry how about a fanny pack? Conceal whatever size gun you want.

Around here we call that a faggy pack. Stands out like a sore thumb, no men wear them, kind of like a purse.
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Old April 4, 2011, 10:39 AM   #74
threegun
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At my age and with 2 kids and a pretty wife, I could care less what others say. My coworkers rib me also BTW. I have found that it is the most comfortable and convenient way to carry no matter the attire. Plus it holds all my money, coins, id, credit cards, so meds, checkbook, and the all to important spare mag. It takes literally 5 seconds to bring all the above with me. Access is both fast and discreet should you need to access without spooking someone.

Once I got past the ribbing its been wonderful. Plus I get to carry larger than normal guns given some attire.

BTW, I have only been "made" twice in over 15 years.
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Old April 4, 2011, 11:01 AM   #75
Bernie Lomax
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Around here we call that a faggy pack. Stands out like a sore thumb, no men wear them, kind of like a purse.
Epic Beard Man wore a fanny pack.

Respect the fanny pack.
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