The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old March 27, 2011, 07:10 PM   #26
ltc444
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 3, 2011
Location: Vernon AZ
Posts: 1,195
First Thank you for your service. COs have a thankless, dangerous job and recieve little of the respect they deserve.

1st Allways carry at least one spare magazine. It is the simplest and fastest way to clear a malfunction. Drop the Mag, clear the jam, insert the new mag and get back into the fight.

2nd. Survival is 90% will to survive and training.

3rd. Use the weapon you are most comfortable with, have the most training with, and are confident with.

My preferred carry is a 1911 GI issue. I have fired thousands of rounds through rack grade 1911s. I have total confidence in the weapon, the round and my ability to hit whatever I aim at.

You must establish that same level of confidence in what ever you carry.

Good luck, God bless and once again thanks for your service.
ltc444 is offline  
Old March 27, 2011, 10:28 PM   #27
garryc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2005
Posts: 2,314
Quote:
Gary C... Does your department provide any firearms training?. If so what is the service pistol/revolver issued to armed officers? I'd recomend that if you just want a firearm and have no plans of a dedicated training/practice regimen go with what ever you qualify with at work. Other than that the world is your oyster. A good service size/style pistol would be a Glock 19, or a 2" round butt model 10 revolver.
We use a S+W 64, most 30 or more years old. Let me say I don't feel under gunned with a 9 and the right loads. The two I speak of are the CCI short barrel +p's and the Remington Saber. I've shot enough of those, and dug them out of clay, to be impressed.

Te training at the prison is not to be considered, it's a joke and no better than minimum training for a CCW. There are no tactical considerations in either. My experience is with auto's, and tactical movement add situational awareness. The dynamics of groups are a specialty of a C/O, or they better be.

I've watched these CCW classes, basically they make someone feel ready, right up until they get killed. I actually spoke at one, and went into use of obsticals, demeanor and awareness, ****** the instructor off. He said 'I teach the NRA way!" Well, if that's the NRA way, the NRA way sucks.

What he teaches is intro. Without tactical ability, combining UASD with the gun, and situatioal awareness, that person is lost with a gang banger. Guess what, gang bangers practice these days.
garryc is offline  
Old March 28, 2011, 10:39 PM   #28
irish52084
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 28, 2011
Location: Washington, the state, not that "other" one.
Posts: 514
From my own experience, I have pretty much given up on "small" carry guns. A good belt and holster take care of hiding and distributing the weight of a larger gun. I also carry 2 extra mags with me when possible. Mags at the ready make clearing malfunctions much easier.

My typical load out is a Springfield XD in 357SIG with 2 12 round mags on my weak or reaction hand side and the loaded XD on my strong, right for me, side. This allows me 37 rounds of 357SIG and doesn't really carry worse for me than just the pistol without the extra mags.

My secondary carry gun is a CZ SP-01 with 19 rounds of 9mm at the ready and a spare 18 round mag, soon to carry 2 spare mags for it as well. It's big, but my state laws on carry allow for open carry or concealed carry. So no big worries if my gun prints. Different states obviously have different laws, so be aware of them as they can impact your gun and gear choices.

More important than the gun is how much you train with the weapon and how well you handle it under stress. Just drawing a pistol from concealed can be a chore if you don't practice. Get the Magpul dvd set "art of the dynamic handgun" and practice all the drills till you can't stand it anymore, then practice them again the next day. Lots of dry fire practice really helped me and since I don't have the money to train under a professional the dvd's really were excellent for me.
irish52084 is offline  
Old March 29, 2011, 12:55 AM   #29
jrothWA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 11, 2006
Posts: 1,935
Get any training availabe, you KNOW what you have to deal with.

Carry what you are comfortable with and PLACING rounds where needed.

Sound out other fellow CO's and determine what they are doing, maybe somebody from the field LEO's can be a coach for you.

For my personal carry, it varies from a J-frame with two speed-loaders to BHP, M39-2, or .45, all with two spare mags.

Good luck!
jrothWA is offline  
Old March 29, 2011, 01:16 AM   #30
freenokia
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 28, 2011
Posts: 138
I like the 9mm. If I felt like I needed more power than that I'd move up to a 357. A g26 with g17 mags for reload is a force to be reconed with
freenokia is online now  
Old March 29, 2011, 09:03 AM   #31
skifast
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 19, 2008
Posts: 226
I live in the city to the South that Garry refers. I carry a FNX-9 with a backup mag in a AIWB holster. When I run or wearing clothes without a belt, I carry a Taurus 709.

My advice is to carry a high cap 9mm. The 9mm with modern HP ammo(Win ranger T-series 147gr is my choice) does everything a 45 does, if put in the same place. If you are faced with 4 gang members, a 1911 gives you 2 rounds per guy without reloading, a high cap 9, you have 4+ per assailant. Considering the potential ineffectiveness of any handgun round,more is better.

Learn to get off the X and make head shots.
skifast is offline  
Old March 29, 2011, 09:43 AM   #32
COSteve
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 6, 2009
Posts: 473
Small town, suburb, or city it really doesn't matter. Remember, when seconds count, the police are only minutes away. You need to be prepared to protect yourself and your family. CCW is a state of mind as much as anything else.

BTW, a Glock G23 with TruGlo TFOs and 180grn Speer GDs sits on my hip ready.
__________________
Steve

“Remember, no matter where you go, there you are.” - Buckaroo Banzai 1984
"When you find a find a big kettle of crazy, it's best not to stir it." - Dilbert 2009
COSteve is offline  
Old March 29, 2011, 09:54 AM   #33
tlm225
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 21, 2004
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 661
I tried the CW40. It didn't work for me due to reliability problems even after two trips back to the factory. After much thought I bought a Kahr K-40, so far it's been great. It seems that the CW9 has been far more reliable than the CW40, I just prefer the .40 cal.

You might consider the Glock 26/27 for carry. Good capacity, reliability, and accuracy. I have a G-23 that used to carry as my primary off-duty (after I got the Crossbreed Supertuck). I got the Kahr for off-duty because it fit my hand much better than any other auto I've tried.

Be safe.
__________________
All that is neccessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
Edmund Burke
tlm225 is offline  
Old March 29, 2011, 10:22 AM   #34
BRE346
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 11, 2011
Location: Victoria, TX
Posts: 158
From left field

I don't envy the Corrections Officer, or any other peace officer for that matter.

There is lots of good advice in this thread.

IMO, they need the biggest gun they can carry, with all the ammo they can manage.

I'm old and growing feeble, so I must limit myself to a 9mm, but there 13 rounds in it and another dozen in a mag on my belt. I may carry my snubbie too, when I figure out how. The day may come when it is all I can manage.
__________________
Ancient Airman
BRE346 is offline  
Old March 29, 2011, 02:33 PM   #35
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
Quote:
Unfortunately, unlike a cop, I have to follow all the restrictions. Fact is, off duty I'm in more danger than a cop. A lot more criminals know me by face.
Why would any former jailbird want to harm the guards after they have been released? The only reason I can think of is to get paybacks for abuse.

Quote:
I've watched these CCW classes, basically they make someone feel ready, right up until they get killed. I actually spoke at one, and went into use of obsticals, demeanor and awareness, ****** the instructor off. He said 'I teach the NRA way!" Well, if that's the NRA way, the NRA way sucks.

What he teaches is intro. Without tactical ability, combining UASD with the gun, and situatioal awareness, that person is lost with a gang banger. Guess what, gang bangers practice these days.
NRA first steps or basic pistol course is just what it says basic. Its not designed to be anything more than that. In my first steps course we follow the book per NRA demands. After we are done in my class I ask if the student wish to stay for extra. Those who choose to stay get a crash course in the how to fight with a handgun from the importance of Situational Awareness to tactics like firing from the retention position, shooting your way to cover, maintaining distance, shooting on the move, weak hand shooting and much much more. Guess what? My students are no more ready for a shootout. Nope not until they begin to practice the tactics and live in condition yellow are they better ready to face an armed confrontation.

My point is take a course tailored to your needs rather than pooh poohing an instructor teaching a course properly.
threegun is offline  
Old March 29, 2011, 02:43 PM   #36
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
threegun...

... I used to work out in a dojo with some CO's. They used to tell horror stories of the things over which inmates would get violent. One of the guys was supervising a road crew, and occasionally shooting the bull with a trustee, a guy he thought he got along with. However, when it came time to put the guys back on the bus, he made the trustee put out the cigarette the trustee was smoking.

Apparently the trustee thought the CO had made him look like a bitch, so he decided to attack the CO with a bush axe (one of the tools the road crew had been using). Luckily, the CO had been training at the dojo with bokken and staff take-aways; he was uninjured, the trustee ended up knocked out, and lost his trustee status.

My CO friend's point was that most of the inmates were not in there because they had good impulse control.

My cousin, a Massachusetts corrections Lieutenant, is on medical leave with a separated shoulder, because he got attacked by an inmate while he was supervising a change of cells.

A friend of mine who recently retired as a San Diego deputy sheriff told me that their department starts all new deputies in the jail, because they want the guys to recognize the bad guys when they are out on street patrol. SDSO seems to feel officer survival goes up when the deputies know many of the bad guy's faces. (Because a lot of the guys who were in jail, will do things to earn their way back to jail once they get out.)



Another
MLeake is offline  
Old March 29, 2011, 05:16 PM   #37
WC145
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 18, 2008
Location: Downeast Maine
Posts: 1,437
Quote:
Why would any former jailbird want to harm the guards after they have been released? The only reason I can think of is to get paybacks for abuse.
Seriously? You don't think that any CO is at risk unless they've abused a prisoner that then recognizes them on the outside? That's incredibly ignorant. Do you think that guards get harmed on the inside only becaused they've done something to "deserve" it? Spare me.
__________________
“Never give in. Never give in. Never, never, never, never—in nothing, great or small, large or petty—never give in, except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force. Never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.”
WC145 is offline  
Old March 29, 2011, 06:42 PM   #38
garryc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2005
Posts: 2,314
Quote:
Why would any former jailbird want to harm the guards after they have been released? The only reason I can think of is to get paybacks for abuse.

An attack on a C/O is generally an attack on the system. Kind of like "It ain't personal." Same as randomly shooting a cop.

Last edited by garryc; March 29, 2011 at 07:15 PM.
garryc is offline  
Old March 29, 2011, 06:43 PM   #39
adn258
Member
 
Join Date: May 12, 2010
Location: Montana
Posts: 39
I think my only advice to the gentleman who said his P63 is inadequate, how about a glock? A Glock 20 10mm to be exact. This has quite a bit of punch for an auto loading handgun that doesn't weigh too much. There is some great 10mm ammunition out there as well.

Also of course since it's a glock they are extremely reliable. The 20 if I've heard correctly HAS some of the best muzzle velocity of any of the other 10mm glocks. In any case 10mm is decent against anything with 2 legs. Do remember that even if youuDO have to defend yourself with a firearm that you are responsible for other people.

The bigger the gun the better chance it can go through walls etc.
__________________
Democrat For Gun Rights!
People's - Personal Rights Advocate!
For Empowering People, Not Corporations!
adn258 is offline  
Old March 29, 2011, 07:13 PM   #40
garryc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2005
Posts: 2,314
I have no question as to the effectiveness of a 9mm with the right load. CCI short barrel HP's or Sabers.

Tactically, I'm shoot and scoot. My objective is to extract myself from the situation. If a perp pursues me and I shoot him, that show to my advantage in the scene invest.
garryc is offline  
Old March 29, 2011, 07:23 PM   #41
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
Quote:
Seriously? You don't think that any CO is at risk unless they've abused a prisoner that then recognizes them on the outside? That's incredibly ignorant.

To give you the courtesy of an answer......no I don't think that a former inmate while free in society would harm a CO without a reason. A CO cannot arrest them.

I think LE officers are much more at risk of attack than any CO.

Quote:
Do you think that guards get harmed on the inside only becaused they've done something to "deserve" it? Spare me
We aren't talking about on the inside. Again my question was why would a former inmate want to harm a CO after he has been released?

Maybe produce some evidence suggesting you are correct instead of hurling insults. Heck a reasonable answer to my question would be better than name calling.
threegun is offline  
Old March 29, 2011, 08:25 PM   #42
JN01
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2005
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 497
Quote:
Why would any former jailbird want to harm the guards after they have been released? The only reason I can think of is to get paybacks for abuse.
Short answer: because they are scumbags.

A CO may have a particular inmate in his cell block all day, every day, for years. Perhaps the CO enforces the rules, and because he does, the inmate develops a long simmering resentment. Maybe the inmate doesn't do anything about it inside because if he does, there is no where to run, and eyes are everywhere. Now, he gets out and sees the CO on the street and he feels its open season. And since he now has unrestricted access, perhaps he is under the influence of his drug of choice, inhibiting whatever trace of reservation he might have had.

Maybe he just hates COs as a general principle.

Why do these creeps go back to prison 5, 6 times? Because they feel entitled to do whatever they want to whoever they want whenever they want. They don't give a crap about anyone but themselves.
JN01 is offline  
Old March 29, 2011, 11:21 PM   #43
armoredman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2007
Location: Arizona
Posts: 3,752
They do attack us, but the rate of COs off duty hurt by assault as cops on duty is much smaller - we don't go looking for them, and MOST of the time they don't go looking for us. Some do. If you've never been inside and seen some of the empty suits of skin walking around pretending to be human, you have no idea what you are talking about. I have worked maximum, close and medium custody, sex offenders and GP, plus a bit on Death Row. Some of the inmates in there believe killing a person is the same as turning off a light, and it doesn't matter who it is. I have seen inmates attack staff simply because they were the next person in brown to be walking by. Yes, that's inside, but when you couple this attitude with the fact that 95% of all inmates are released some day, it can get your attention. If you believe we are just making this up, fine, believe what you want, but walk inside the wire sometime - might change your mind.
My Dept issues the Glock 17, but I don't like it, even after qualifying Expert or Distinguished Expert every year with it, so I carry a CZ P-01 with two spares off duty, and may be moving to the CZ SP-01 Phantom with the 18 round mags, two spares. Yes, they run in packs, and many of them know me by face. I enforce the rules inside, and they don't like that. Too bad.
Oddly enough, I have had several ex-inmates come up to me to brag about how they are staying clean and gainfully employed, and I always give them as much positive feedback as possible.
Just goes along with being the red-headed step-children of LE.
__________________
http://czfirearms.us/ same original CZForum, new location.
armoredman is offline  
Old March 30, 2011, 01:07 AM   #44
BikerRN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 11, 2007
Location: "State of Discombobulation"
Posts: 1,333
Quote:
To give you the courtesy of an answer......no I don't think that a former inmate while free in society would harm a CO without a reason. A CO cannot arrest them.

I think LE officers are much more at risk of attack than any CO.
Having been on the inside, I cannot begin to tell you how stupid your statement and belifs are.

Armored Man did a much better, and nicer, job of explaining it than I could. I will choose to ignore you, as you clearly are either very naive, intellectually challenged, or a substance abuser that has had one too many hits at the crack pipe.

Truth be told, after an arrest, street cops have less to worry about from someone they put away than those that keep them incarcerated.

Biker
BikerRN is offline  
Old March 30, 2011, 06:21 AM   #45
garryc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2005
Posts: 2,314
Quote:
Oddly enough, I have had several ex-inmates come up to me to brag about how they are staying clean and gainfully employed, and I always give them as much positive feedback as possible.
Just goes along with being the red-headed step-children of LE.
Bingo!!

Many times I've come on a former inmate trying to do right. I shake their hand and talk to them some. They call me Mr. C, I tell them it's Garry out here. The last guy I ran into at Giant Eagle I actually gave a recipe to, wrote it down for him. Running straight with a record is tough, real tough.


And I never said a C/O was in more danger off duty than when a cop is on duty. More danger off duty than a cop is OFF duty. It simply is based on recognition. A cop might deal with a hand full of felons in a weeks time, me, 1750 a day when I was a yard officer.

As far as the gun, I really don't need a High Cap. I simply don't go very many places. Round the corner stuff. Mostly I'm a home body. I really don't go anywhere at night. We haven't really been to a restaurant in several years. No clubbing, no theaters except for an early matinee.

Last edited by garryc; March 30, 2011 at 06:34 AM.
garryc is offline  
Old March 30, 2011, 06:39 AM   #46
ojibweindian
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 20, 2000
Location: Huntsville, Alabama
Posts: 1,179
Gary

I'd most definitely think you'd need a "full cap" gun because, though you're not looking for trouble, someday trouble, and a butt-load of it, might come looking for you. It'd be a lot easier to fend off several attackers with 32 on tap or available out of a Glock 19 or an XD9. And, either one of those two are pretty easy to conceal and get up and running in a hurry. Also, with 16 or 17 round mags, you have a better chance of not going to slide lock while exposed in the middle of a gun fight.

I think the latest edition of American Handgunner has an "Ayoob Files" article that highlights the advantage of having more rounds in your gun than the opposition.
ojibweindian is offline  
Old March 30, 2011, 06:39 AM   #47
jkgruet
Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2011
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 18
Good thread. Most importantly, I have come to have a much better appreciation for the correction officer job. I'd not really thought about it before very much. Thank you.

I've long been a believer that there really is such a thing as a stupid question. But I also think that puts a higher burden on the one answering the question, since, in most cases, the questioner doesn't realize that it's stupid -- but at least realizes that he may yet have something to learn. And that's a good thing.
jkgruet is offline  
Old March 30, 2011, 07:20 AM   #48
Bernie Lomax
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 13, 2010
Posts: 155
Quote:
Moving will do little good, the whole country is in decline, with all the jobs moved overseas.
That's absolutely correct. Also, Section 8 programs have been used to transplant miniature ghettos into just about every (formerly) decent neighborhood in the country. Not even places like Westchester and Marin County are safe anymore:

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/...ity.cnn?hpt=C2
http://issuesviews.blogspot.com/2009...tegration.html

I live in a neighborhood that's recently been "enriched" with Section 8 "diversity" and was considering moving, but then I realized that there's really nowhere left to run to. It's time to cowboy up and start fighting back.
__________________
"People in Arizona carry guns. You better be careful about who you are picking on."--Detective David Ramer, Chandler police spokesman
Bernie Lomax is offline  
Old March 30, 2011, 09:15 AM   #49
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
Quote:
Having been on the inside, I cannot begin to tell you how stupid your statement and belifs are.

Armored Man did a much better, and nicer, job of explaining it than I could. I will choose to ignore you, as you clearly are either very naive, intellectually challenged, or a substance abuser that has had one too many hits at the crack pipe.

Truth be told, after an arrest, street cops have less to worry about from someone they put away than those that keep them incarcerated.

Biker
Until I see statistics that show a CO at a higher level of danger while offduty from a former inmate now a free civilian I will disagree.

If you are correct then there would be stats and stories to prove such. Providing them would certainly prove me all the things you called me. Until then you have proved nothing with your tirade except that CO's job turns them into impolite humans.

Quote:
Oddly enough, I have had several ex-inmates come up to me to brag about how they are staying clean and gainfully employed, and I always give them as much positive feedback as possible
Quote:
Many times I've come on a former inmate trying to do right. I shake their hand and talk to them some. They call me Mr. C, I tell them it's Garry out here. The last guy I ran into at Giant Eagle I actually gave a recipe to, wrote it down for him. Running straight with a record is tough, real tough.
Seems the evidence provided so far is exacelty opposite.

Last edited by threegun; March 30, 2011 at 09:21 AM.
threegun is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:37 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14622 seconds with 7 queries