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Old March 25, 2011, 10:08 PM   #1
Aristides
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New Sig P290: "Non-Restrike" Design...Explain?

A Guns & Ammo Magazine review of the P290 tells us that it is a "non-restrike" design, and the author expects Sig to eventually bring out a "restrike version" as well.

Why wouldn't everybody want a restrike capability...? I guess there must be some advantages to the non-restrike design. Can somebody explain to me the relative advantages and disadvantages of the two different designs?

Thanks!
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Old March 26, 2011, 09:02 AM   #2
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I thought the P290 was a DAO and did have restrike capability.

In a pocket gun, with a low round capacity, I'd rather have the feature than not, for a misfire or lightstrike.

Last edited by PSP; March 26, 2011 at 09:09 AM.
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Old March 26, 2011, 10:29 AM   #3
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I dont see any advantage, and its not "bad" if it doesnt have a second stike capability.

If it didnt go off the first time, its not likely to go off on a second strike, and youre just wasting time trying.

Either way, if the gun doesnt go "bang" when you expected it to, you do a TRB, and move on.
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Old March 26, 2011, 10:35 AM   #4
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I agree with AK. If you train as you should with your guns, your first response to a non/misfire should be a TRB or similar, not pull the trigger again. If I wanted "second strike" cpapability....Id carry a revolver.
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Old March 26, 2011, 11:13 AM   #5
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Two kinds of misfires

First, let me dispell a misconception: Revolvers are strictly speaking, not "restrike-capable", as your followup strike is a new strike on a fresh cartridge. To the operator, though, the manipulations are the same, so I do get your point.

The relative advantages of "restrike" or "non-restrike" designs is probably best examined by dividing misfires into two types. Those which will fire the second time struck and those which will not.

A defective primer (one with contaminated priming compound, no anvil or no priming compound) will not fire on the second strike, third or fourth, no matter what. The TRB (tap-rack-bang) drill is appropriate.

A poorly seated primer will quite often be seated with the first strike, and quite often fire (let's say, for the sake of analysis, 50%) on the second strike, which is MUCH faster than a TRB..

What kind of misfires does your ammo give you? What do you seek to protect against?

Please note that second-strike capable guns are also amenable to the TRB drill. Also note that non-second-strike-capable guns can be made to give a second strike (e.g. a Glock's slide, drawn back a fraction of an inch will reset the trigger without ejecting the faulty round).

Here's my drill with a semi-auto with second strike capability, I will take the second strike before I do the TRB.

The fraction of a second it takes to try the second strike has a 50% probability of saving me the several seconds it takes to empty my off-hand and do the TRB. Plus it may save that one round.

I have another question: What do you gain by giving up the second strike capability? A little bit of trigger "feel"?

Thanks for reading. I hope my thoughts help.

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Old March 26, 2011, 11:34 AM   #6
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I dont think its a good idea to get into the habit of analyzing the malfunction, or fiddling with the gun, even on the range (other than maybe an "off" report with a squib, etc) if it doesnt go off when expected. You should be immediately focused on getting the gun back to working.

The double strike just wastes time, especially since "most" rounds dont go off on the second strike. "Most" of the time it does after the TRB.

If youre at the range, and see someone having the issue, watch what they usually do when it occurs. Most will stand there looking slightly confused, pulling the trigger again, and again, and then do an analysis. What do you suppose will occur if it happens under stress?

Program your brain to do the TRB.
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Old March 26, 2011, 12:06 PM   #7
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I think second strike capability is just a marketing gimmick. I would prefer to just perform an Immediate Action Drill
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Old March 26, 2011, 12:42 PM   #8
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Quote:
Program your brain to do the TRB. If youre at the range, and see someone having the issue, watch what they usually do when it occurs. Most will stand there looking slightly confused, pulling the trigger again, and again, and then do an analysis. What do you suppose will occur if it happens under stress?

Exactly, train as you fight. Why waste another second pulling the trigger again. I wouldnt even TRB per se......just racking will do 90% of the time.

Yes, I know a revolver isnt a "second strike" weapon. Just a bit of sarcasm.
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Old March 26, 2011, 02:40 PM   #9
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I'm in general agreement with AK103K & RT regarding "second strike capability" as an "important" feature. Meaning I don't see it as being important.

Then again, I come from the generation that saw some of the major semiauto pistols employed for defensive purpose deliberately lack this specific "feature", such as the 1911, 1935 and the S&W DAO pistols. The 1911 & 1935 were Single Action, of course, but even the S&W DAO required the slide to be cycled in order for the sear nose to "locate" the hammer so a trigger stroke could fire the gun. If the hammer fell and the cartridge didn't fire, and the slide didn't cycle, the hammer remained "at rest" until the slide was manipulated by hand to chamber another cartridge and "locate" the hammer again.

Trigger-cocking revolvers (traditional double action) are uniquely different and not really a fair comparison to semiauto pistols for a subject like this one, I'd think. More distracting than relevant.

While Traditional Double Action pistols (or DA/SA, as commonly described) offer the trigger cocking capability of the revolver, having that feature doesn't necessarily mean that it's considered either practical or prudent to use it under actual defensive conditions.

Most trainers nowadays seem inclined to teach some version of an immediate action drill response, often called Tap-Rack-Assess. This was previously, once upon a time, usually called Tap-Rack-Bang... until the name of the drill became a potential liability consideration if it was made to seem intended to influence someone to stop deliberate volitional thought of identifying the presence of a continuing "threat" once the drill was completed (by some user in an actual situation).

In other words, it became a concern that once the action drill was completed, the user might simply fire a shot ... to complete the "bang" part of the "Tap-Rack-Bang" drill as learned and practiced ... without realizing the threat may have been discontinued in the time it took to complete the drill and that deadly force was no longer a lawful action.

Hence, the increasing use of the term Tap-Rack-Assess, implying a quick assessment and awareness of whether a shot still needed to be fired, and was still appropriate and lawful, as conditions can change rapidly and unpredictably in a dynamic situation.

I can't think of a trainer I've ever met who taught that a "second strike" attempt was a primary desirable response to any of the conditions that can result in a "click" instead of the intended "bang" when an intentional shot is attempted. After all, if the chamber is empty (such as if the magazine has been slightly displaced and a fresh round was not fed and chambered), more hammer strikes will not fire something which isn't there.

Besides, look at the number of new service-type pistols which have entered the market within the last 25 years, many of which were never intended to offer their users "second strike" capability, or, a couple of the newer designs which could, but at the expense of much heavier trigger strokes, or which also involved different trigger recovery/reset points. These things affect skillsets and may require different training goals for different systems.

Immediate action drills can be more or less universally applied to any number of semiauto designs and platforms.

Just depends on what the goal of someone's training is and how they feel it easiest to achieve, especially under arduous, difficult and dynamic conditions outside the range environment.

And yes, over the years I've come across many instances where a round which failed to fire the first time was able to be fired when rechambered (after inspection, of course, as part of a diagnostic process when examining the weapon and the ammunition). Sometimes it was the ammunition (less sensitive primer, for example) and sometimes it was the weapon (fouled & contaminated firing pin channel).

The purpose of checking such suspect rounds was to try and determine whether an ammunition, weapon or shooter condition existed which needed to be identified and addressed when we had the luxury of seeing it happen in a range environment.

The luxury of range diagnostics is that weapon, user & ammunition related influences can be identified and addressed on the range, to hopefully mitigate a similar occurrence outside the range, under actual conditions.

The importance of the shooter being able to resolve such potential issues with an appropriate simplified action drill, which would have a better chance of resolving a number of potential "problems", was always discussed and stressed.

So, no ... I don't see the "second strike" feature being on my list of critical or desirable features when I look for a service-type defensive pistol.

Now, if the new P290 lacks this "feature" (haven't personally handled one, myself) and enough potential customers request it, then Sig Sauer might well decide it's worth the potential increased sales revenue to add it to "meet stated LE customer specifications" at some point.

Market forces ... be they actual, perceived or simply requested ... can be a powerful incentive.

Look at all the plastic guns that have come out as the result of "market forces".
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Old March 26, 2011, 03:09 PM   #10
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Look at some history....

One of the main selling points of the DA auto when they first came out was the ability of a second strike. Quite possibly the main selling point. Remember in the 1930s ammo consistancy wasn't what it is today. Misfires and hang fires were much more common with factory ammo than today.

The Walther pistols (and primarily the P.38) showed the way. Eventually the second strike ability became less of a selling point as doctrine evolved to fire the first shot DA, like a revolver. Today we have moved to the point where we have pistols that fire all their shots only in the "DA" mode.

Not so much for a need, as a market want, in my opinion. Lots of folks are very happy with SA auto pistols in numerous designs.

Non-restrike only means that you cannot restrike the primer without you doing something else, other than pulling the trigger. For example, you can "restrike" with a 1911, but you have to recock the hammer, first.

With the general quality of today's ammo, a restrike capability is of dubious value. Odds are high that if it fails to fire the first time, it will not fire the second time. High, but not a certainty. In a serious situation, the argument is, don't waste even the tiny amount of time pulling the trigger again, go straight to the failure drill, because when it fails to fire the second time (most likely) you're going to have to do the tap,rack,bang anyway.

While not true 100% of the time, this argument has its merits. That being said, a pistol with a restrike capability hurts nothing, so long as the other design features are acceptable.

Sonds to me like somebody is trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.
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Old March 26, 2011, 04:54 PM   #11
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Restrike isn't a good idea.

It's been my experience messing around with restrike that typically when a round doesn't go bang the first time, it's not going to go bang the second time. Your mileage may vary, but I don't think I've ever tried to get a round to fire a second time and have it work (and used to try it in some quantity to get rid of any odds and sods we had laying around before an ammo turn in during my .mil days).

Secondly, even if it occasionally works, training that into your muscle memory for a semi auto instead of a tap rack bang is just a recipe to get OODA looped under stress into a bad course of action that might, ultimately, cost you your life. (Revolvers are a different story entirely, as mentioned up thread.)
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Old March 26, 2011, 05:37 PM   #12
Aristides
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I'm the OP.

"What do you gain by giving up the second strike capability? A little bit of trigger "feel"?"

This is the essence of my original question. What is the advantage of a non-restrike design? Since a restrike capability seems to be a good thing, all other things being equal, what advantage is there to non-restrike design?
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Old March 26, 2011, 05:43 PM   #13
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I don't see any advantages or selling points to a DAO trigger (not to say I don't own one), second strike is a gimmick in the Civilian area where primers aren't coming over from Egypt or UAE. Military spec primers tend to be much harder and may not detonate in a pistol the first time (possibly being due to the bullet designated to be fired in SMGs, which have to have harder primers.). Most citizens use non military ammo, making second strike a gimmick and the double action trigger obsolete. Why have a heavy long trigger when you could get a short, light and crisp 1911 trigger.
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Old March 26, 2011, 05:49 PM   #14
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Quote:
Why have a heavy long trigger when you could get a short, light and crisp 1911 trigger.
So we dont have to have safeties.
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Old March 26, 2011, 06:12 PM   #15
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Quote:
I don't see any advantages or selling points to a DAO trigger (not to say I don't own one), second strike is a gimmick in the Civilian area where primers aren't coming over from Egypt or UAE. Military spec primers tend to be much harder and may not detonate in a pistol the first time (possibly being due to the bullet designated to be fired in SMGs, which have to have harder primers.). Most citizens use non military ammo, making second strike a gimmick and the double action trigger obsolete. Why have a heavy long trigger when you could get a short, light and crisp 1911 trigger.
I still shoot a good bit of "military" pistol caliber rounds, and have yet to have any problems with any of my handguns popping the caps. Even on the old Spanish and Egyptian SMG stuff I still have, although Im usually picky about what I shoot it out of, due to it being corrosive.

DAO triggers are no harder to shoot than anything else, unless you dont shoot them. The complaints usually come from 1911 shooters who dont.
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Old March 26, 2011, 06:35 PM   #16
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+1, at least with .mil issue M882, second strike isn't a selling point there either. Rounds that don't go the first time rarely go the second time, and we definitely don't train people to try to make it go bang on a second strike -- we train them to tap-rack-bang with a pistol or clear the stoppage if they're being trained to run SMGs.
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Old March 26, 2011, 06:54 PM   #17
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Compromise?

So, what's wrong with a training to use a different drill?

STRB

Second-strike
Tap
Rack
(Assess) [added, thanks to fastbolt]
Bang

It will add a quarter to a half-second to a 3 or 4 second drill, and add it at the front end, where success would be the most valuable.

You could probably even do it with zero added time if the second strike is performed at the same time as you are emptying your off-hand and bringing it up to do the "tap".

And, yes, one does give up substantial trigger feel with a pure double action trigger as compared to Glock's "Safe-Action" and other makers' similar actions, but compared to a pistols like the CZ-75 and Taurus 92/99(true DA/SA triggers, as they are capable of being carried cocked and locked), you do really give up next to nothing.

Yes, we may be debating a molehill at the base of a mountain, but if I am down to the last three rounds in my backup magazine, I want every edge I can get.

Lost Sheep

p.s. warpig602, I thought I recognized a little sarcasm. But I wanted to suggest that the "Second-Strike" drill used with an auto gives a second strike, but the same drill performed exactly the same way with a revolver brings up a completely new round, much as the TRB does, but faster.

{Tongue-in-cheek alert} I suppose, if I were going into a gunfight where I EXPECTED a dud round, I would choose a double-action revolver, as the TRB for a wheelie is just, "pull the trigger again", which I can do much faster than a full TRB.
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Old March 26, 2011, 08:24 PM   #18
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I don't see a need for second-strike. If the round failed to fire the first time I don't want to waste my time trying it a second time. Plus if the same thing happens with the next round you know you've either got a problem with the gun or the ammo.
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