The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > Law and Civil Rights

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old March 25, 2011, 05:01 PM   #1
anthony6727
Member
 
Join Date: January 30, 2011
Posts: 58
ATF To Ban Tactical Shotguns?

Hey Everyone,

I got an e-mail today that said that the ATF is trying to ban tactical shotguns. Now it is obvious to me that this person is using that inflammatory remark to get more sales of their book. However, i wanted to know if anyone knew if this claim was true about the ATF ban on the shotguns? ( I am planning on buying a benelli m-4 ) The e-mail is below:


ALERT: ATF to Ban Tactical Shotguns
Dear Anthony,
I hope you're not one of those gun owners who said, "They'll never come for my shotguns."
If you are, I'm afraid the rain is about to fall on your parade.
You see, the ATF is coming for your shotguns ... with a vengeance.
The ATF wants to ban the importation of any tactical shotgun it views as not meeting the "sporting suitability" use as defined in the Gun Control Act of 1968.


That means all they need to do is make up a bunch of "features" that don't (according to them) "fit" a sporting use of a shotgun.
It's an open door for an outright shotgun ban ... the very same shotguns that are probably in your gun safe right this minute.
This ban may seem too horrible and too outrageous to be real. But believe me when I tell you: This is no hoax.
Make no mistake: This ban will affect hundreds of gun makers who produce shotguns that are currently in use not only by law enforcement and the military in the United States but also home owners who simply want an effective home defense shotgun.
The real question is, what can you do about it? For starters, get informed about these guns. Our friends at Gun Digest have just released a new book you need to own. It's called The Gun Digest Book of the Tactical Shotgun.
It's brand new, and you need it to make a good decision about all the new options on the market (options the ATF may soon outlaw).
This book covers everything you need to know about which tactical shotguns and accessories are the best and what will fit your fighting style and needs.
Buy this book. Then buy a shotgun. In that order.
But there's one more thing.
Part of the proceeds from your purchase of this book (and my other recommended books found below) goes to support the National Association for Gun Rights. So take a minute to stockpile a good assortment of books. Add The Gun Digest Book of the Tactical Shotgun to your cart while you still can.
Only one week left!
Thanks for your support,

Dudley Brown
Executive Director
PS - The ATF is proposing to ban importation on all tactical shotguns it asserts don't have any "sporting" use. If they succeed, this will be the most dangerous interpretation of the 1968 Gun Control Act ever envisioned and will outlaw thousands of perfectly legitimate home defense shotguns.
To give NAGR the resources to stop this threat, you can buy the newly-released The Gun Digest Book of the Tactical Shotgun at special NAGR supporter prices (for only one more week!) ... plus a portion of the proceeds from your purchase will go back to NAGR to stop this backdoor gun ban.
anthony6727 is offline  
Old March 25, 2011, 05:26 PM   #2
Sefner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 24, 2009
Location: Michigan
Posts: 769
I don't believe anything like this that I get in my email. It is the same as spam to me until I verify it independently.

I haven't heard anything.
__________________
gtalk:renfes steamID: Sefner
Sefner is offline  
Old March 25, 2011, 05:55 PM   #3
KyJim
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2005
Location: The Bluegrass
Posts: 7,717
There is some truth about the ATF wanting to ban the import of "evil black shotguns." http://www.nraila.org/legislation/read.aspx?id=6172
__________________
Jim's Rules of Carry: 1. Any gun is better than no gun. 2. A gun that is reliable is better than a gun that is not. 3. A hole in the right place is better than a hole in the wrong place. 4. A bigger hole is a better hole.
KyJim is offline  
Old March 25, 2011, 08:26 PM   #4
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
Guess according to the ATF...

... "threegun" isn't a sporting use.

Not that I like the "sporting use" doctrine in the first place...
MLeake is offline  
Old March 25, 2011, 08:29 PM   #5
MrDontPlay
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 25, 2010
Posts: 587
What features make it "tactical"? I have to use my black 12ga for HD and shooting trap, I can't afford a fancy engraved one.
__________________
Someday I'll be good enough to know if a gun is accurate or not.
MrDontPlay is offline  
Old March 25, 2011, 11:12 PM   #6
Patriot86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2010
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 1,293
I am guessing they mainly want to stop the import of Saiga shotguns, and that is a damn shame. They are perfectly applicable for hunting, especially bird hunting.
Patriot86 is offline  
Old March 26, 2011, 05:40 AM   #7
WeedWacker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 13, 2006
Location: Body: Clarkston, Washington. Soul: LaCrosse, Wisconsin
Posts: 1,532
Noticed that "import" word in that e-mail as well. Aren't Remington and Mossberg two of many USA firearm manufacturers? They aren't imported. Benelli also has a USA plant, I don't think they would need to import the receivers for the supers. (M or nova series)
__________________
- Weed
Disequilibrium facilitates accommodation.
9mm vs 45 ACP? The answer is 42.
WeedWacker is offline  
Old March 26, 2011, 05:32 PM   #8
kozak6
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2005
Location: AZ
Posts: 2,322
Two parts standard fear mongering, one part curiously placed advertisement, and one half of one drop of truth.

The BATFE has proposed restrictions on the importation of shotguns.

PDF
http://www.atf.gov/publications/fire...n-shotguns.pdf

I don't think the purpose is to control the Saiga. If you read the pdf, you will see that the Saiga as imported would continue to be acceptable.

In fact, it would affect so few shotguns that I'm not sure what the point is.

It has been speculated that perhaps the true purpose is to set precedent on what is considered a "non-sporting" shotgun so that they can take a stab at domestically produced "non-sporting" shotguns.

Quote:
Noticed that "import" word in that e-mail as well. Aren't Remington and Mossberg two of many USA firearm manufacturers? They aren't imported.
That's not completely accurate. Off the top of my head, Remington's Spartan line is imported, although those are clearly sporting shotguns.
kozak6 is offline  
Old March 26, 2011, 06:19 PM   #9
isanchez2008
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 13, 2008
Location: WA
Posts: 344
Quote:
although those are clearly sporting shotguns

According to?
isanchez2008 is offline  
Old March 26, 2011, 08:40 PM   #10
Technosavant
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 29, 2007
Location: St. Louis, MO area
Posts: 3,912
According to the ATF's own definition of sporting shotguns.

If you've read the study, they state those criteria very clearly. They specifically state they see no difference between detachable magazines and tube magazines... detachables don't swap out as fast as some think and tubes are faster to reload than many might believe.

The list of criteria (beginning page 14 of the .pdf):
1) folding/telescoping stock
2) bayonet lug
3) flash suppressor
4) magazine larger than 5 rounds or a drum
5) grenade launcher mount
6) tactical rails
7) light enhancing devices (basically, night sights)
8) excessive weight
9) excessive bulk
10) forward grip (not a handguard, but an actual protruding grip)

As imported, there's no substantive difference between a Saiga 12 and any other semiauto shotgun like a Beretta 391. Sure, the Beretta is prettier and probably better for clays, birds, etc., but that isn't the ATF's concern.

About the only gun I know of that might be affected by the study right now is the Chinese copy of the 1897 Trench Gun (thanks to the bayonet mount).

My only concern is what happens to modified imported shotguns- while we've generally acted like 922r applies to shotguns, they aren't necessarily covered there. It is possible that the ATF could be *really* problematic and treat imported shotguns modified to an unsporting configuration as destructive devices or some other restricted firearm. Or they could grandfather them. Or they could just say comply with 922r parts counts.

Last edited by Technosavant; March 26, 2011 at 08:46 PM.
Technosavant is offline  
Old March 26, 2011, 08:52 PM   #11
Bartholomew Roberts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 5,718
Another big issue is that ANY firearm with a bore of greater than 0.50" is a destructive device unless the Attorney General finds that such a firearm has a suitable sporting purpose.

If shotguns meeting the above configuration can't be imported because they are not suitable for sporting purposes, it is a very short leap to applying the same rationale to domestic shotguns - and the Attorney General already has this authority under the 1968 GCA - he doesn't need to ask Congress for permission to do this.
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Old March 26, 2011, 09:17 PM   #12
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 10,519
The comment period is open until May 1st. I encourage everyone to register their concerns with them. According to the ATF:

Quote:
Comments will be accepted from 01/31/2011 - 05/01/2011 and may be emailed to: shotgunstudy@atf.gov or faxed to (202) 648-9601. All comments must include a name and mailing address.
I'd also encourage everyone to get in touch with their legislators regarding this. The Bureau is under a great deal of pressure, and their budget is up for renewal soon. Now would be a very good time to suggest that they not tie up their scant resources on something like this.
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change.
--Randall Munroe
Tom Servo is offline  
Old March 27, 2011, 06:40 AM   #13
WeedWacker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 13, 2006
Location: Body: Clarkston, Washington. Soul: LaCrosse, Wisconsin
Posts: 1,532
Quote:
Off the top of my head, Remington's Spartan line is imported, although those are clearly sporting shotguns.
(bold mine)

Hence why we shouldn't worry about a tactical shotgun ban. The 870 series is one of the most common "tactical" shotguns out there, let alone any sort of mod to an 1100 for some semi-auto goodness. Just no detachable magazines which I think is the real target here.

I know there used to be a mod for detachable mags for I think the Ithica or Mossbergs. But those were pump models.
__________________
- Weed
Disequilibrium facilitates accommodation.
9mm vs 45 ACP? The answer is 42.
WeedWacker is offline  
Old March 27, 2011, 08:32 AM   #14
thallub
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2007
Location: South Western OK
Posts: 2,121
The ATF's interest in so called "tactical" shotguns goes back to 1984. In 1984 the ATF invoked the "sporting purposes" clause of the GCA of 1968 to ban the import of a shotgun. This was the first time the "sporting purposes" clause was applied to a long gun.

Quote:
In 1984, the "sporting purposes" test was specifically applied to rifles and shotguns. The firearm in question was a South African riot control shotgun. The importer, pursuant to the statute requirements, indicated that the weapon fit "sporting purposes" due to its "suitability for police/combat style competitions." ATF denied the license.

Two years later, a second shotgun application was denied due to the firearm not being "generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to a sporting purpose." Here, ATF clarified that firearms must attain "general recognition as having a sporting purpose" and events must attain "general recognition as being a sport."
http://rpc.senate.gov/releases/1998/importban-kf.htm
thallub is offline  
Old March 27, 2011, 09:06 AM   #15
Bartholomew Roberts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 5,718
Quote:
Hence why we shouldn't worry about a tactical shotgun ban. The 870 series is one of the most common "tactical" shotguns out there, let alone any sort of mod to an 1100 for some semi-auto goodness. Just no detachable magazines which I think is the real target here.
Except that the ATF study and proposal on this subject makes it clear that they don't see any difference between a detachable magazinecor a tube magazine. They also make it clear that they don't see a difference between pumps and semis either. 6-shot tube extension on an 870? According to ATF's study, that shotgun has no sporting purpose.
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Old March 27, 2011, 10:15 AM   #16
Spats McGee
Staff
 
Join Date: July 28, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 5,160
Yes, but there's also plenty of language in the study that says that part of their analysis focuses on "general recognition" as a sport. That tells me it's time for someone to go out and start organizing Defensive Shotgun Sports. Devise a scoring system for 2 shots each at 4 silhouettes at 20 yards . . . Maybe someone has already done this and we should all go sign up.
Spats McGee is offline  
Old March 27, 2011, 10:51 AM   #17
WeedWacker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 13, 2006
Location: Body: Clarkston, Washington. Soul: LaCrosse, Wisconsin
Posts: 1,532
Quote:
6-shot tube extension on an 870? According to ATF's study, that shotgun has no sporting purpose.
However, those can be added post purchase, even to an 1100 (I'd like to compare apples to apples in a loose sense here). A Saiga is specifically built to be a detachable magazine fed semi automatic firearm. A Rem 1100 is tubular fed. While there are bolt shotguns out there that were designed to be fed from a detachable magazine, they are more specifically "sporting use" as per the ATF. Just because the study makes no distinction doesn't mean the information will be used in an adverse way. They may attempt to use it as justification to render (as many paranoid people believe) the Saiga 12 a destructive device. On the other hand, that would be a mess to clean up and I don't think they have the budget nor the political backing that would provide the extra funding to perform a witch hunt on Saiga 12 owners.
__________________
- Weed
Disequilibrium facilitates accommodation.
9mm vs 45 ACP? The answer is 42.
WeedWacker is offline  
Old March 27, 2011, 11:53 AM   #18
Bartholomew Roberts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 5,718
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeedWhacker
However, those can be added post purchase, even to an 1100 (I'd like to compare apples to apples in a loose sense here).
Not if they turn the firearm in question into a destructive device. Again, under current gun control laws, any firearm (domestic or imported) with a bore greater than 0.50" which does not have a suitable sporting purposes is a destructive device and subject to regulation under the 1934 NFA.

The ATF Study on the Importability of Certain Shotguns says that the following features indicate a shotgun is not suitable for sporting purposes:

(1) Folding, telescoping or collapsible stocks
(2) Bayonet lugs
(3) Flash suppressors
(4)magazines over 5 rounds; or a drum magazine
(5) grenade launcher mounts
(6) integrated rail systems (other than on top of the receiver or barrel)
(7) light enhancing devices
(8) excessive weight (greater than 10lbs for 12ga and smaller)
(9) excessive bulk (greater than 3" in width and 4" in depth)
(10) forward pistol grips or other protruding parts designed or used for gripping the shotgun with the shooter's extended hand

"Therefore shotguns containing any of these features are not particularly suitable for nor readily adaptable to generally recognized sporting purposes..."

Note that is includes even one feature from the above list and it applies to all shotguns, regardless of how the action works, etc.

Quote:
A Saiga is specifically built to be a detachable magazine fed semi automatic firearm. A Rem 1100 is tubular fed. While there are bolt shotguns out there that were designed to be fed from a detachable magazine, they are more specifically "sporting use" as per the ATF.
The study also found:

"In regard to sporting purposes, the working group found no appreciable difference between integral tube magazines and detachable box magazines. Each type allowed for rapid loading, reloading and firing of ammunition."

As you can see from the ATF's own study - it doesn't matter whether the magazine is detachable or tubular. If it holds more than 5 rounds, it is non-sporting. The action is also irrelevant because it is the bore size that makes it a destructive device once it is determined to be non-sporting.

Quote:
They may attempt to use it as justification to render (as many paranoid people believe) the Saiga 12 a destructive device.
As imported, the Saiga 12 IS a suitable for sporting purposes as discussed in this study. It is only when modified that it becomes non-suitable. The big problem here is that even if ATF says that this "non-sporting" criteria only applies to importable shotguns, we still have 18 USC 921 (4)(B):

Quote:
Originally Posted by 18 USC 921
"(4) The term “destructive device” means—

(B) any type of weapon (other than a shotgun or a shotgun shell which the Attorney General finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes) by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, and which has any barrel with a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter; and

(C) any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into any destructive device described in subparagraph (A) or (B) and from which a destructive device may be readily assembled. "
So not only would a magazine tube extension for an 1100 have the potential to turn a shotgun into a destructive device, you could potentially be charged under 921 (4)(C) for owning a destructive device just for possessing a shotgun rail system, tube extension or similar type of item.

There is nothing paranoid about this. All you have to do is read the current law and read how ATF is proposing to change it in relation to imported shotguns and you should have big red flags going up.
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Old March 27, 2011, 02:14 PM   #19
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
email to ATF shotgun study

Saw the link in Tom Servo's post, and decided to give it a whirl. Sent this to the address in the link:

To whom it may concern,

I've recently read about ATFE's intention to ban the importation of the Saiga-12 shotgun. Apparently, the agency is doing a study, and looking for some feedback, so here's mine.

First, as far as "sporting purpose" goes, the majority of shooting sports these days have nothing to do with hunting. IPSC, IDPA, and GSSF are not at all hunting-related. Similarly, neither are Three-Gun competitions. The Saiga is particularly well suited to Three-Gun, and to me that means it has plenty of "sporting purpose."

Note: I do not own a Saiga at this time, though I may choose to acquire one later, as I'm considering getting into Three-Gun.

Second, a large percentage of American gun-owners think the whole "sporting purpose" issue was just a bunch of legalistic double-talk, which the government used to circumvent the Second Amendment. I'm not quite sure how ATFE or anybody else thinks the recent Heller decision doesn't mean that "sporting purpose" will eventually be completely thrown out, but I'm quite confident that it will.

I swore an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States back in 1989, and I have a keen dislike for politicians who do their best to circumvent that document. I spent over twenty years in uniform doing just that. These days, I'm in defense contract work, upholding and defending in Afghanistan, though not in uniform any more. And I resent feeling that my efforts can be arbitrarily undone at the whim of any bureaucrat.

Thanks for your attention,

M.D. Leake
LCDR USN (ret)
MLeake is offline  
Old March 27, 2011, 02:30 PM   #20
Technosavant
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 29, 2007
Location: St. Louis, MO area
Posts: 3,912
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeedWacker
Just no detachable magazines which I think is the real target here.
Why would you think that?

The ATF's own document shows that it isn't the detachable magazine.

I think Bartholomew is right- the real concern for us isn't what guns might fall under the import ban. The real concern is what might happen to those shotguns (even those that would be considered domestic production) if the ATF starts being touchy about the sporting purpose clause in relation to shotguns.
Technosavant is offline  
Old March 27, 2011, 04:37 PM   #21
natman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 24, 2008
Posts: 1,476
The Gun Control Act of 1968 banned importation of ALL firearms into the US except those deemed by the ATF to have a "sporting purpose".

The recent proposal is ATF fine tuning what it's definition of "sporting purpose" is for shotguns.

It only affects imported guns.
natman is offline  
Old March 27, 2011, 05:15 PM   #22
thallub
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2007
Location: South Western OK
Posts: 2,121
Quote:
The recent proposal is ATF fine tuning what it's definition of "sporting purpose" is for shotguns.

It only affects imported guns.
Bingo. Fine tuning is right. In 1984 and again in 1986 the BATF ruled that certain imported shotguns did not meet the "sporting purposes" clause of the GCA 1968.

It has nothing to do with Remington or any other US made shotgun.
thallub is offline  
Old March 27, 2011, 06:34 PM   #23
Al Norris
Staff
 
Join Date: June 29, 2000
Location: Rupert, Idaho
Posts: 9,318
Raise your hand if you own a shotgun with a bore diameter of .50 inch or greater... .... ...

Now go back and read Barts last post. In particular, read what he copied from 18 USC 921.

I do read other gun forums. In all of them, those that understand 18 USC 921, understand that all the regulating authority of the BATFE come from the Attorney General delegating that authority to them.

If the BATFE chooses not to recognize IDPA, IPSC, GSSF and Three-Gun as sports, what sports are left?

If the BATFE chooses to initiate the list of Evil Modifications to Shotguns, then anything other than a plain Jane shotty, is a destructive device.
Al Norris is offline  
Old March 28, 2011, 06:09 AM   #24
thallub
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2007
Location: South Western OK
Posts: 2,121
Every action that has banned a shotgun from import was done under the "sporting purposes" clause of the GCA 1968.


IMO: Dudley Brown and his NAGR are less than credible. i have researched the NAGR very thoroughly and cannot find where that organization has donated one red cent to our cause. Beware of any organization that has a big red "Donate Now" on it's home page.

Last edited by thallub; March 28, 2011 at 07:22 AM.
thallub is offline  
Old March 28, 2011, 08:04 AM   #25
Bartholomew Roberts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 5,718
Quote:
Originally Posted by natman
It only affects imported guns.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thallub
It has nothing to do with Remington or any other US made shotgun.
What both of you appear to be missing is that the "sporting purposes" language appears in other aspects of gun control laws as well. As I pointed out above when I gave you the citation to the statute - 18 USC 921 (4)(B), a link to the statute, and posted the words from the statute in this thread - every domestically produced shotgun with a bore of greater than 0.50" is considered by current law to be a destructive device unless it is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes.

So if a shotgun can be banned for import because it is NOT generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes as determined by the Attorney General, what does that suggest about the consequences for domestically produced shotguns?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thallub
Every action that has banned a shotgun from import was done under the "sporting purposes" clause of the GCA 1968.
Exactly three shotguns have been banned (in 1984) from import due to not being "particularly suitable for sporting purposes" - the USAS-12, Striker-12 and the Streetsweeper. However, an important point is that ATF had never developed at that point (and still hasn't) a formal criteria for what made a shotgun "suitable for sporting purposes." Also relevant, please note that at the same time ATF banned them from further import, they also classified those shotguns already imported into the United States as "destructive devices" under 18 USC 921 (4)(B). Meaning that not only are shotguns of that design banned from import, they cannot be produced domestically without following NFA rules.

That is what the point of the above linked study is. They are now attempting to establish the criteria for what is "suitable for sporting purposes" in regards to imported shotguns. The problem is once that determination is made for imported shotguns, it makes the status of domestic shotguns with those same features very tenuous due to 18 USC 921 (4)(B).
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:16 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.15615 seconds with 7 queries