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Old March 22, 2011, 11:13 PM   #1
zxcvbob
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Slowfire, I can barely hit the paper...

Timed fire is a lot better. Then on rapid fire they are almost all in the black. The SF shots are all over the place, maybe weighted a *little* to the right, but there's plenty of fliers to the left too. And up. And down. BTW, I'm left handed.

I kept that rapid fire target to remind me that it's not the gun and not the ammo, the problem is me. (plus it will look good hanging on the wall in my office)

I'm shooting an unmodified 4" .38 Special service revolver (S&W 15-4) with iron sights, and I'm shooting everything double-action -- which is new to me because I grew up shooting SA revolvers. I have to think about not cocking the hammer.

I suppose I could shoot the slow fire as fast as I can and be done in 30 seconds, then stand around looking stupid for 8 or 9 minutes (we seldom go the whole 10 minutes.) But that's probably not the right answer. Any ideas?
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Old March 23, 2011, 07:14 AM   #2
MrBorland
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I don't shoot bullseye (yet), but why not shoot SF in single action, especially if that's what you're used to? Don't revolver shooters normally shoot SF in SA anyway?

Also, you're comparing your SF to your TF & RF results, but you don't mention the distance(s) Isn't SF 50 yards? Your trigger control may not be any worse than TF/RF, but imperfections will be magnified at 50 yards.

Distance aside, shooting SF at TF pace might help diagnose the problem - if it improves it really is a change in your DA trigger control during SF.

BTW, are you reloading your own ammo? If SF is shot at 50 yards, are you confident your ammo (reloads or not) is accurate to that distance? Again, I've not shot bullseye, but if you're shooting wadcutters, I imagine they'd shed velocity pretty quickly, and a MV under a certain threshold might be fine for closer work, but too slow to stabilize the bullet at 50 yards.
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Old March 23, 2011, 08:10 AM   #3
kraigwy
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Quote:
I could shoot the slow fire as fast as I can and be done in 30 seconds, then stand around looking stupid for 8 or 9 minutes
Lets see, all the ammo is in the black and looked stupid for 8-9 minutes or shots all over the county standing around for 1-2 minutes. Hmmmmm

Are you shooting the slow fire at 50 yards or 25 yards with reduced targets?
If at 50 maybe your ammo doesn't like 50 yards. That's not uncommon. Simple to check. Shoot show fire at 25 yard TF/RF targets and see.

Actually your problem is common. Most people shoot timed and rapid fire better then slow fire (my self included).

Think of slow fire as 10 individual 1 shot rapid fire matches. You have time. lower the gun, raise and fire as in rapid fire the first shot and lower the gun.

The problem in slow fire is it gives you time to think about it.
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Old March 23, 2011, 08:24 AM   #4
zxcvbob
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All three targets are at 50 feet. We are using NRA regulation 50' targets. The SF target is a much harder target because it's a little smaller and has a lot more rings. I'm shooting fairly mild-loaded wadcutters.

I figured it was because I'm thinking too much. Probably waiting until the sights are perfectly on target and then jerking the trigger -- although if that were the case I should be throwing all the shots the same way.

On RF, there's no time to think and so I do pretty well.

Maybe I need to load 5 live rounds and 1 dud, then spin the cylinder so I won't know when the "click" will come.
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Old March 23, 2011, 09:38 AM   #5
MrBorland
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When shooting DA for fine accuracy, I tend to stack the trigger, which I consider a bad habit, since I'm more likely to jerk the trigger coming out of the stack. I do much better just pulling straight back. Taking more time to make the shot often works against me, then - more temptation to stack & jerk, and more time to let an "idiot thought" sneak in.

Quote:
Probably waiting until the sights are perfectly on target and then jerking the trigger -- although if that were the case I should be throwing all the shots the same way.
If the result of jerking the trigger were so consistent, jerking wouldn't be such a problem. "Jerking" is simply a simple label for an uncontrolled, stochastic pull, and the pattern produced will reflect this.

I like the ball and dummy drill. And if the SF target is getting in your head, also try practicing shooting SF at the TF target. No matter the target, practicing quality shots is important if you're going to get your brain hardwired to a better process.
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Old March 23, 2011, 12:12 PM   #6
Rifleman1776
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You said it "thinking" is what is killing your accuracy.
Timed and rapid are a lot more instinctive.
The problem is all mental.
I understand Rob Leatham wrote an excellent book on the mental processes involved in competition shooting. He is one of the best ever, must know something. Worth a try.
And, practice, practice, practice won't hurt.
BTW, I used to shoot my slow fire in not much more time than the timed round. There is no requirement to use up all the time alloted.
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Old March 23, 2011, 02:32 PM   #7
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If you don't have them already go to your toy store and get a package of snap caps.

Blank sheet of typing paper with a 1" cross drawn in the middle of the paper horizontally and vertically with a fine point black pen.

Tape or pin paper to wall, bulletin board, neighbors cow, refrigerator or whatever stationary surface you can find where you can post at shoulder height.

Muzzle of gun no more than 1/2" from paper but not touching with the horizontal line on top of your front sight and the vertical line straight up the middle and squeeze off that first shot. (REMEMBER THE SNAP CAPS)

Any mistakes will show up as a gross movement of the sight from the line. This is doing two things for you, forcing you to put both eyes on the front sight and forcing you to make a steady controlled squeeze. To make the job a one step procedure instead of two imagine the front sight is attached to the trigger and when you move the trigger back you are moving the front sight back through the notch of the rear sight.

Don't hurry it. Remember to breathe before bringing your gun up, if the shot hasn't occurred in 12 to 15 seconds put the gun down, breathe and start over. The drill isn't over till you have made 10 perfect shots. My first time took over 40 minutes and I was soaking wet with sweat and trembling like a leaf in a stiff wind.

Most people bull gaze during slow fire so they are not focused on the front sight but at a point between the target and the sight so you see neither clearly. Target won't move, you will, so control you.

Master this and then you are good to go for 50' slow fire targets, 50 yards slow fire targets or 100 yards with the same 50 yard slow fire target. Don't rush it, it will come slowly but it will come, remember that shooting is barely 10% physical, the rest of it is between your ears. Control your mind and you will control your gun.
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Old April 1, 2011, 03:58 PM   #8
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I would question the rationale for using what is essentially a self defense weapon for Bullseye. How accurate is the gun and ammo? Have you ransom rested the gun? I learned a long time ago that sometimes fairly good rapid fire targets involve a lot of luck in the beginning and don't really teach you anywhere near as much as the slow fire targets. If you can outshoot your gun you will go nowhere fast. Do a lot of dry fire and concentrate on the front sight not moving as you press the trigger. Another trick is to load only 4 and leave two empty chambers. Watch and see what happens when you squeeze off the non-shots. I shoot Bullseye and use a Model 52 S&W for 50' indoor centerfire matches. Usually shoot outdoor matches and use all three guns for those. S&W 41, S&W 52 and Les Baer .45. If you want to get good buy a Ruger .22 and practice ALOT. Good Shooting
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Old April 1, 2011, 04:53 PM   #9
saltydog452
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I can dry fire Xs, or at least 10s, with boring regularity.

I recall a comment that said that matches are won on the short line, but lost on the long. That has proved true with me.

A possible explanation is that, on the short line, with the time (generous) allowed, we are simply not pushing, healing, dipping, or scratching the watch and scraching our shorts.

If you discover the solution w/o enlistment, I'd like it if you would share the answer.

Thanks,

salty
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Old April 1, 2011, 05:20 PM   #10
Dave P
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Wasn't that Butch Cassidy that had the same problem??

"Can I move?" he asks, as he misses the beer can on the ground.
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Old April 1, 2011, 07:35 PM   #11
Nnobby45
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Quote:
Timed fire is a lot better. Then on rapid fire they are almost all in the black. The SF shots are all over the place...........
Concentrate on the sight and you won't be able to anticipate the noise and recoil and your sights will still be on target when the gun goes bang.

It's not where your sights are when you decide to pull the trigger, it's wherre they're aligned when the shot breaks.

When you shoot fast, you don't have time to lose concentration.
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Old April 2, 2011, 09:57 PM   #12
Ken O
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Sounds like your not following through... as soon as the trigger is breaking, your are quitting the shot. Try thinking its rapids and keep the gun up and the eye on the sight for the next shot, but not shooting it, hold it there for a couple seconds before dropping it to reset for the next shot.
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Old April 17, 2011, 10:06 PM   #13
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Two more pieces of food for thought-

Another part of follow-through is getting that second sight picture after you pull the trigger. This will keep you from looking over your sights to see your shots. Think of it like golf with your follow through and keeping your head down.

The other thing I have found helpful on bull shooting is minimizing my movement between shots. Once I get set up into a nice stance I don't move my feet and try to keep relaxed while staying in a fairly aggressive stance. From my shooting position, I just draw my gun back to the three position (back to chest) take a few deep breaths between rounds, and extend back out.

Dry fire, and ball and dummy drills as mentioned may also help with your fundamentals, so some short sessions will never hurt either.
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Old April 17, 2011, 11:21 PM   #14
Tom Servo
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Quote:
I would question the rationale for using what is essentially a self defense weapon for Bullseye. How accurate is the gun and ammo?
Actually, the S&W 15 is a great gun for both. In slowfire, 2" groups should be attainable at 50'. Ammo might be the problem.

I'm not a fan of staging or "stacking" the trigger in DA. Watch the front sight. If the light is good, you should be able to make out the horizontal serrations on it. Keep that image sharp, and when you stroke the trigger rearward, imagine the finger "rolling" down it.

Don't try to reset the trigger. Let it come all the way forward, and allow your finger to leave the trigger. Think of it as a slow-motion version of "slapping" the trigger.

Breathe and take your time between shots: you've got plenty of it!
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Old April 18, 2011, 08:09 AM   #15
zxcvbob
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I think I was focusing on the target instead of the front sight. I tried concentrating on nothing but the front sight and shot a lot better. That was just one night; we'll see if it sticks
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Old May 5, 2011, 12:18 PM   #16
tuj
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The tips I've been given for slow-fire:

Focus entirely on the front sight and sight alignment and nothing else. Your body and arm position should already naturally align with the bull.

Try 'supercharging' your breathing. Take some super-deep breaths before starting your regular breathing procedure for slow-fire. This will help saturate your blood with O2 and help prolong your hold before a lack of O2 and lactic acid takes over in your arm.

Follow-through. Don't drop the pistol immediately after the shot, stay focused on the front sight for an extra second after the shot breaks, then slowly lower the gun. Some people get in a rush to lower the gun.

After you establish your sight picture, wait about 3 seconds. During this time your hold will actually stabilize more. But do not wait longer than 7-10 seconds to fire your shot; your nervous system starts to act up at that point in the hold and decreases your accuracy.

If the shot isn't there in the window between 3-10 seconds, put the gun down. You have plenty of time.

Don't look at your shots on the target while you are shooting a string. If you start shooting all 10's, it will start to impact you mentally. Spot your target after the string.

Mental: build up the confidence to be able to shoot a 10 every time. Maybe this means shooting your targets a little closer for a while until you are getting good slow-fire scores and then backing off to 50'

Group sizes: Try shooting at a blank target (or turned backwards) and see if you can shoot small group sizes with no aim point. The USMC pistol team does this. If you can shoot small groups, you should be able to translate that into good scores.

Disclaimer: I am not very good at bullseye, but I've just started and have been getting some great coaching.
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