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Old March 10, 2011, 04:51 PM   #1
bighead46
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Flintlock In-Line

Do any of you guys belong to the NMLRA? This month's magazine has an article on a flintlock in-line from the mid-1700's. I think it was German or eastern European. In any event pretty cool. A small flint was put on what would be the firing pin on a modern in-line. There was a trap door on top of the barrel behind the breech plug. The back side of the trap door was angled at 45 degrees and was the frizzen. In other words as the flint drove forward it hit the sloped trap door and pushed it up as it scraped against the steel and created sparks. At the back of the plug was a dished area to hold the priming powder- which was exposed when the trap door flipped up- firing the gun.
Pretty cool. Why didn't it replace the regular flintlock? Well the mechanism was superior but the maintenance was the problem- impossible to clean and bits of broken off flint could jam up the works.
The firing pin had a rod/bolt- just like some modern in-lines, that was pulled back to cock the piece.
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Old March 10, 2011, 09:25 PM   #2
kwhi43@kc.rr.com
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I read it. What gets me is that some people think in-lines are new. Ha!
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Old March 11, 2011, 03:44 AM   #3
arcticap
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Cap & balls revolvers are pretty much inlines too.
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Old March 11, 2011, 09:18 AM   #4
Rifleman1776
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can I say "yuck" here?

I read it. There have been many variations and oddities throughout history. Most new ideas are not new at all. Yes, inlines existed in very small numbers 'back then'. They were generally just experimental.
Traditionalists, like me, who disdain today's inlines regret the lack of tradition. Those who buy and shoot those bubble packed, plastic stocked monstrosities do so only to extend their deer hunting season.
I won't go on. I think the NMLRA, of which I am a member, has made a serious mistake endorsing (modern) inlines.
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Old March 11, 2011, 10:36 AM   #5
Pahoo
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Quote:
I think the NMLRA, of which I am a member, has made a serious mistake endorsing (modern) inlines.
We have been down this road before and I think that the NMLRA had no choice but to include In-Lines. I would not refer to it an an endorsment as much as promoting muzzlelloading. ......

During our Hunter Ed. Classes, I promote "Muzzleloading". Obviously I include In-Lines but like you, my passion is in my side-cockers and that includes Rock-Crushers. If the state ever required us to only teach In-Lines, I would stop teaching.

Quote:
Those who buy and shoot those bubble packed, plastic stocked monstrosities do so only to extend their deer hunting season.
Certainly can't disagree with you on this, as the history and romance of Tradtionals is certainly lacking. I shoot and hunt with both and hope that In-Liners could discover the simple joy of Side-Locks. .....


JMHO and as always;

Be Safe !!!
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Old March 11, 2011, 11:19 AM   #6
kwhi43@kc.rr.com
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First let me say this. I just love the side locks, Flint being my first love. Love
the revolvers also. 1851 Navy. When I started shooting serious, I look at some old pictures of the pistol line at Friendship say back in the late 40's and
throughout the 50's. What kind of pistols did I see? INLINES. They been
shooting these for a very long time. So that was what I went with. Every once in a while at the local level, someone might say, Oh I see you using a
inline. Like it's a bad thing. They usually get over it. Those who make those
remarks have not been to Friendship. Anyway I love them all. At least were
shooting. I even have pellet guns I shoot. Got one rubber band gun that
shoots a little low and to the left. Have to work on that one. Not all inlines
are ugly. Here is one I have that pertty much dominates the line at Friendship

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Old March 11, 2011, 12:20 PM   #7
Rifleman1776
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Yes they use them on the pistol range at Friendship.
Others that look like Flash Gordon's ray gun have also been used.
I have always objected to them, including those converted from Mod. 1911s.
But, I kept quiet. It is hard to stop a tsunami by flailing your hands.
I think it is a bad thing and I didn't get over it.
I don't participate in 'traditional' activities to see others going space age.
BTW, my response to Pahoo is by PM.
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Old March 11, 2011, 02:41 PM   #8
Pahoo
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Quote:
BTW, my response to Pahoo is by PM.
And responded to as well. I have a better understanding of his frustrations and our shared interests. Life is so good !!! ....


Be Safe !!!
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Old March 11, 2011, 03:33 PM   #9
mykeal
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Just a small point of order:

There are a significant number of incidents in my several years of experience in which a hunter has purchased an in-line muzzleloader to extend his deer hunting opportunities and eventually turned to sidelocks to use.

I am not a fan of in-line muzzleloaders; most of the ones I've had experience with have been inexpensive, simple and reliable but not appealing to me. However, allowing their use in an extended season has clearly resulted in putting more hunters in the woods for a longer period of time, and from a strict game management point of view that's a plus. But it's also a plus because some people who would never have tried muzzleloaders otherwise took up an in-line because they're cheap and reliable and then moved up to traditional muzzleloaders when they found they're not smelly, hard to clean, expensive, etc. That's just a simple fact, one that's rarely acknowledged but true nonetheless.

Notice I didn't say ALL in-line owners, and I admit I don't know if it's 50% or 1%. But it has happened and will continue to happen. And that's a good thing. One of the things we can do to increase the numbers of that phenomenon is to welcome the in-line owners to the sport and educate them to the joys of the more traditional guns. There are those among us, not many, but some, who insist on an 'elitist' attitude; they treat in-line owners with disdain at every encounter, and I can't help thinking that does us no good in the long run.

I don't expect to convert anyone with the above, but it's a point I feel needs to be made. Thanks for taking the time to read it.
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Old March 11, 2011, 03:44 PM   #10
bighead46
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Well, in any event if was an interestng gun and when I first started reading the article I was thinking- why didn't this system replace the side lock??? and then the author stated the downfall was the maintenance. In any event I find a lot of the odd ball mechanisms sort of interesting and thought I'd mention it.
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Old March 11, 2011, 04:01 PM   #11
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Quote:
Traditionalists, like me, who disdain today's inlines regret the lack of tradition. Those who buy and shoot those bubble packed, plastic stocked monstrosities do so only to extend their deer hunting season.
I agree.
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Old March 11, 2011, 05:17 PM   #12
Rifleman1776
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mykeal, my experience is very few inliners convert to traditional. From a hunting/sport point of view, I have a few other objections. In my state of Arkansas, and I suspect most others, the muzzle loading season was created to give traditionalists an opportunity to have a quiet, low pressure hunt before the crowded modern gun season. That is gone. It is simply another season.
Many (most? all?) inliners out there think they have long range killers with those pellet and sabot goofy guns. I believe there are many more wounded deer during the muzzle loading season than during modern gun. They all think they are Jim Shockey. Guys I have talked with think their funny guns are sighted in at 200 yards right out of the bubble wrap.
The game and fish department is happy to have them come. It is good for herd management and the state economy in general. I can't argue that.
I think (for Arkansas, at least) the time has come to eliminate the muzzle loading season. That way, those of us who are stuck in a 250 year old time warp can still hunt the way we want to, albiet with those funny orange vests) and not have to get puckered up over the sight of those strange looking, plastic stocked toys what shoot pellets and sabots.
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Old March 11, 2011, 08:36 PM   #13
mykeal
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Quote:
mykeal, my experience is very few inliners convert to traditional.
As I said, I don't know if it's 50% or 1%, and I suspect you don't either. But I do know, for a fact, that some who have started with in-line guns have converted. Some is better than none.
Quote:
In my state of Arkansas, and I suspect most others, the muzzle loading season was created to give traditionalists an opportunity to have a quiet, low pressure hunt before the crowded modern gun season.
I don't know what the situation was or is in Arkansas. I do know what it was and is in Michigan. I've heard the same complaint here, but it's not true. There's nothing in the language of either the proposal to establish the season or the definition of the season itself about providing a special quiet or low-pressure hunting experience for a certain select few. There is language that says the season is established so that muzzleloaders would not have to compete for game with firearms capable of multiple shots without reloading. That's quite different from a 'quiet, low-pressure' hunt.
Quote:
Many (most? all?) inliners out there think they have long range killers with those pellet and sabot goofy guns.
There are surely some, I agree with that; as to percentage, well, show me a credible survey. I know it's not all, and so do you.
Quote:
I believe there are many more wounded deer during the muzzle loading season than during modern gun.
I don't. Show me.
Quote:
They all think they are Jim Shockey.
Nonsense.
Quote:
Guys I have talked with think their funny guns are sighted in at 200 yards right out of the bubble wrap.
Well, now, that's true of any group regardless of their equipment. I've worked the firing line as an instructor and RSO at dozens of sight-in events prior to opening day here in Michigan, and I promise you that affliction is not isolated to in-line owners.

I offer you an alternative to getting
Quote:
...puckered up over the sight...
How about you pick out one in-line owner a year and show him the benefits of the traditional side? Convince him, or her, to try it out, perhaps even lend him or her a traditional gun to use instead of the
Quote:
...strange looking, plastic stocked toys what shoot pellets and sabots.
How about it - are you willing to be an ambassador for our sport?

I teach the muzzleloading section of Hunter Safety Education. I make it a point every class to pick out one student planning to shoot an in-line and convince them to try a traditional gun for that year's season. Sometimes I win and sometimes I don't but that doesn't keep me from trying. how about helping me out?
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Old March 11, 2011, 08:42 PM   #14
Pahoo
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Quote:
I don't expect to convert anyone with the above, but it's a point I feel needs to be made. Thanks for taking the time to read it.
Oh, I have made a few that I know of but not many. At one time, we had three good active informal clubs and now there aren't any. I have kids and they are all kids to me, call me all the time asking me questions. ....

But you have to admit that good Traditionals are getting harder to find and most go for big bucks. In-Line on the other hand, are dime a dozen and getting cheaper. i have heard that 90% of the M/L business, is in, In-Lines. .....


Be Safe !!!
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Old March 11, 2011, 09:16 PM   #15
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I think (for Arkansas, at least) the time has come to eliminate the muzzle loading season.
MS. pretty much has. You can use breech loading cartridge rifles with smokeless powder and scopes. The only stipulations are the rifle has to be a single shot and have an external hammer and be a design that was in use before 1899 and fire a bullet .35 or larger. The H&R Handi Rifle fits the bill in 35 Whelen and a multitude of other calibers.
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Old March 12, 2011, 09:54 AM   #16
Rifleman1776
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mykeal asked me: "How about it - are you willing to be an ambassador for our sport?"

I am and have been for more than forty years. I am a former NMLRA Field Rep. I have helped form and charter 16 clubs in Arkansas a few more in other states. Arkansas NMLRA membership peaked when I was a Rep. I have written many articles for Muzzle Blasts and the old Buckskin Report. I was an NMLRA safety instructor and had a small part in writing the original manual. I have spoken countless times to civic groups and schools. There is probably a lot more but my tired old brain can't recall it all right now. Muzzle loading and early American history have been my passion for much of my life. I have appeared in three doumentary films on early history. I fly a Bennington flag in front of my home. Oh,....lots more.
Admittedly, slowing down. Age and living on SS don't cooperate with my 'wants' as much as I would like.
Any more questions?
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Old March 12, 2011, 01:40 PM   #17
bighead46
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Okay- don't get mad. I admit I shoot both. I held off of the in-lines for a long time but the hunter in me sort of won out. My eyes can't make out antlers in some situations and a scope is a big help.
BUT...........
The first time I went to the range I ended up shooting 1 1/2" groups at 100 yards. I couldn't believe it. That is as good or better than most of my modern cartridge rifles. Some of the other guys at the range were equally amazed. That is NO CREDIT to me- I was shooting off of sandbags- all the credit goes to the firearm. In any event I had to ask myself- does a rifle of this capability really belong in the muzzle loading season? After all it is as accurate as any other rifle. I think the big danger with the in-lines is if they end up adversely impacting the regular muzzle loading season. I know that some states don't allow in-lines and if my state followed suite I wouldn't be that upset, it was just that other guys were bringing in big bucks with in-lines and I had missed a few with my sidelock and, well, errr...... I ended up with an in-line. Still, I have issues. As I said if the state banned in-lines it would actually be ok with me- everyone would be back to equal footing.
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Old March 12, 2011, 02:55 PM   #18
mykeal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rifleman1776
Any more questions?
An impressive resume. Your credentials as a bp ambassador exceed mine.

Now I really don't understand why you insist on treating the population of in-line shooters with such disdain. With all your experience in promoting bp shooting and hunting writing off a complete class of potential new recruits really puzzles me. It makes as much sense to me as a smokeless shooter saying he won't try bp because it's all smelly, dirty, too much trouble, etc.

We're cutting our own throats here.
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Old March 12, 2011, 03:10 PM   #19
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Myke,

.....It makes as much sense to me as a smokeless shooter saying he won't try bp because it's all smelly, dirty, too much trouble, etc.....

That's what they DO say!
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Old March 12, 2011, 05:38 PM   #20
mykeal
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Yes, it is. And it makes as much sense as when we treat in-line shooters with disdain. You did get my point, didn't you?
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Old March 12, 2011, 07:03 PM   #21
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I got your point, I don't agree with it, but I got it.
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Old March 12, 2011, 07:25 PM   #22
kwhi43@kc.rr.com
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I'm feeling better already.
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Old March 12, 2011, 08:58 PM   #23
4V50 Gary
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Joe Valentin is an excellent gunbuilder, knife maker, engraver, powder horn maker and bag maker. I want to grow up and be Joe Valentin. Anyhow, there's a similar gun at the Missouri State History Museum in St. Louis.
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Old March 13, 2011, 08:01 AM   #24
Rifleman1776
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mykeal, I don't want to get into an extended debate.
My passion is remembering Early American History and the guns that brought us freedom. The NMLRA was founded to remember the old traditions.
Lay a finely crafted flintlock longrifle next to a discount store in-line. Which one will make your heart flutter? You know.
It would probably take a psychologist to figure out why I react to strongly to the in-lines. It might be they represent so many of the values we are losing in America and make many, myself included, fear for our future.
Add to that, I'm old, I'm a curmudgeon and stubborn. (But, please keep it a secret, I have spent many hours and days coaching, coddling and helping others with their guns, regardless of what kind. I have a reputation to protect. )
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Old March 13, 2011, 08:05 AM   #25
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Quote:
mykeal, I don't want to get into an extended debate.
My passion is remembering Early American History and the guns that brought us freedom. The NMLRA was founded to remember the old traditions.
Lay a finely crafted flintlock longrifle next to a discount store in-line. Which one will make your heart flutter? You know.
It would probably take a psychologist to figure out why I react to strongly to the in-lines. It might be they represent so many of the values we are losing in America and make many, myself included, fear for our future.
Add to that, I'm old, I'm a curmudgeon and stubborn.
+1. I despise the things.
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