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Old March 10, 2011, 10:31 PM   #1
motorhead0922
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Man shoots and kills himself in conceal and carry gun class

A real tragedy, not too far away:
"The Douglas County sheriff is investigating the death of a man who accidentally shot himself while taking a class to obtain a permit to carry a concealed gun.

The sheriff said the accident happened while an instructor was having the man manipulate the weapon with his non-dominant hand -- in this case, his left."

http://www.news-leader.com/article/2...text|FRONTPAGE

I can't figure out how this could happen.

BTW, off-hand handling is not part of Missouri CCW.
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Old March 10, 2011, 10:41 PM   #2
motorhead0922
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A little more info:
http://www.ky3.com/news/ky3-story-ac...,4494185.story


"When you put that gun in the opposite hand, you always want to try and use [your index finger] to negotiate the safety but, in order to do that when you're doing it, you end up turning the gun toward yourself to make your finger reach," said Degase.

Huh? Is he talking about releasing the magazine?
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Old March 10, 2011, 10:52 PM   #3
orionengnr
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The law also requires that students in the class demonstrate marksmanship with both a pistol and a semiautomatic, said Cole. That's because even if a student only owns a pistol, there could always be some kind of situation where he or she might have to fire a semiautomatic.
Ummmm....what?
Quote:
"When you put that gun in the opposite hand, you always want to try and use [your index finger] to negotiate the safety but, in order to do that when you're doing it, you end up turning the gun toward yourself to make your finger reach," said Degase.
Sounds as if the problem was not in the manipulation of the safety but of the trigger.
Just another example (or two) of the exceptional journalistic standards that are the norm these days...
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Old March 10, 2011, 10:56 PM   #4
GM1967
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Quote:
Quote:
The law also requires that students in the class demonstrate marksmanship with both a pistol and a semiautomatic, said Cole. That's because even if a student only owns a pistol, there could always be some kind of situation where he or she might have to fire a semiautomatic.
Ummmm....what?
I would assume they misquoted him, and that a dumb reporter substituted "pistol" for "revolver"
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Old March 10, 2011, 10:57 PM   #5
youngunz4life
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that's sad. its too bad he had to go out that way and what a tragic accident! I took a class and the manipulation stuff was always with unloaded weapons. furthermore, the instructor made an announcement at the beginning of the class that it was illegal to have ammo in his class so that anybody packin or with ammo had to put it in the car first
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Old March 10, 2011, 11:04 PM   #6
Pvt. Pyle
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Im sorry...its sad yes. But what is going through your mind when you point a LOADED gun at yourself...
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Old March 10, 2011, 11:37 PM   #7
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Browning 9mm. So he was shooting a Hi-Power in a weak hand drill. Like the 1911, the Hi-Power has a manual safety on the left side of the receiver, set up so the thumb can sweep it off when it's time to get serious.

If you shoot right-handed.

The Hi-Power thumb safety could be awkward to manipulate with the left hand if firing one-handed, but it's difficult to envision how the guy got the gun turned around far enough to shoot himself.



(Not my pistol. I borrowed the image from a Hi-Power thread on the M1911.ORG forum.)
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Old March 11, 2011, 03:16 AM   #8
chris in va
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What the heck was ammo doing in a CC class?

Nevermind, I see it was at the range part of the class. Still very odd he was told to use his left hand.
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Old March 11, 2011, 08:26 AM   #9
teeroux
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but it's difficult to envision how the guy got the gun turned around far enough to shoot himself.
I guess in situations where you feel very uncomfortable and your doing something with a firearm your not used to safety goes out the window.

One of the bank robbers in the North Hollywood shootout shot himself in the head whilst manipulating his pistol with his off hand come to think of it.
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Old March 11, 2011, 08:33 AM   #10
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"When you put that gun in the opposite hand, you always want to try and use [your index finger] to negotiate the safety but, in order to do that when you're doing it, you end up turning the gun toward yourself to make your finger reach," said Degase.
That makes zero sense. I'm a left hand shooter and us my index finger to operate controls and I just don't understand how it causes the muzzle to point in my direction.

My guess would be that this gentleman was trying to work the safety and couldn't so he turned the gun in towards himself to get a better look at what he was doing.
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Old March 11, 2011, 09:37 AM   #11
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My Prayers go out to the family and those involved.

I teach CC and do run every student through weak hand shooting.
Yes there is always risk, but i use a .22 rim fire and the weapon is picked up from the shooting bench.
99.5% of the students have never shot a handgun with the weak hand (the hand the revolver was fired with in the 1860's) and are very unsure they can even hit a target.
We have to teach tactics in our class and to me that is a tactic. If your shooting hand/arm is incapacitated can you continue to protect yourself and your family? Yes we can and what we teach in a CC Class is in so many cases the only formal instruction a person will ever get because it is the minimum standard required by law.
We teach that there is a Moral responsibility to train and training can be done with or without a partner at a range/gravel pit, but it must include the 3 R's
Yes this incident will make me revisit my methods.
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Old March 11, 2011, 10:30 AM   #12
Bartholomew Roberts
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it's difficult to envision how the guy got the gun turned around far enough to shoot himself.
Not to mention that the Hi-Power has been produced with an ambidextrous safety since 1981.

Looks like he borrowed it from a friend and was unfamiliar with the pistol. That probably didn't help matters.
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Old March 11, 2011, 11:24 AM   #13
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We've kicked this around at the MissouriCarry forum.

General consensus is that the guy was not familiar with the firearm and that the course was trying to handle things that it should NOT have been covering. Sure, weak hand practice is good, but the MO CCW course is basically Handguns 101. You cover basic safety, self defense law, and things like that. Weak hand shooting is a more advanced thing, and not one that should be done in this class; there's just not enough time to do it justice if you're doing a good job on the required curriculum.

Moreover, there's something to be said for not trying manipulations of the controls on a strange handgun unless the firearm is unloaded and verified as such every time you pick it up.

Sure, the guy made a huge mistake, but it's one the instructor never should have allowed him to make in class.
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Old March 11, 2011, 04:04 PM   #14
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You can bet there will be a lawsuit coming. There are no accidents anymore, only incidences that create potential retirement funds for family members.
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Old March 11, 2011, 05:21 PM   #15
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
General consensus is that the guy was not familiar with the firearm and that the course was trying to handle things that it should NOT have been covering. Sure, weak hand practice is good, but the MO CCW course is basically Handguns 101. You cover basic safety, self defense law, and things like that. Weak hand shooting is a more advanced thing, and not one that should be done in this class; there's just not enough time to do it justice if you're doing a good job on the required curriculum.
All too true. According to most states' laws, the basic CCW class is required to be a handgun SAFETY course, not a self-defense tactics course.
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Old March 11, 2011, 06:44 PM   #16
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Quote:
All too true. According to most states' laws, the basic CCW class is required to be a handgun SAFETY course, not a self-defense tactics course.
MN training requirements include self defense.
However the drawing of a weapon form a holster is very carefully spelled out in the NRA's PP outside the home, to not include anything but conventional strong hand draw where the non-shooting hand is placed at the chest upon griping the weapon and joined after the weapon is extended, then back to the chest during the re-holster. Any other form of draw, such as cross draw and draw from behind the back are not allowed in an NRA class.
When I cover self defense there are several situations we cover and basic weak hand fire(not drawing) is one that I teach and this is one-on-one.

Quote:
Subd. 2a. [TRAINING IN THE SAFE USE OF A PISTOL.] (a) An
applicant must present evidence that the applicant received
training in the safe use of a pistol within one year of the date
of an original or renewal application. Training may be
demonstrated by:
(1) employment as a peace officer in the state of Minnesota
within the past year; or
* (2) completion of a firearms safety or training course
providing basic training in the safe use of a pistol and
conducted by a certified instructor.
(b) Basic training must include:
*(1) instruction in the fundamentals of pistol use;
*(2) successful completion of an actual shooting
qualification exercise; and
*(3) instruction in the fundamental legal aspects of pistol
possession, carry, and use, including self-defense and the
restrictions on the use of deadly force.
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Old March 11, 2011, 07:55 PM   #17
Deaf Smith
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The instructor over did the training.

Dissimilar handgun training is ok, but weak handed?

The techniques should be only for experienced shooters with good training under their belt and not a 10 hour CCW class.

But dead is dead.

I feel if he was trying to release a P-35's safety with his left thumb (and unless the safety is an extended variety that is kind of hard to do) that he could have turned the gun toward himself to get his thumb over the backstrap and tang.

Either that or he dropped it and grabbed it as it fell and a thumb struck the trigger (the gun would have fallen butt first due to the weight there.)

We all should keep in mind guns can kill their owners if handled wrong. They are just machines with no mind and no empathy for anyone. You touch the ‘go’ switch and the gun will go off no matter where it is pointed.

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Old March 11, 2011, 08:31 PM   #18
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gbro
MN training requirements include self defense.
Yes -- the LEGAL aspects of self-defense, not the tactical application. From the statute (or regulation) you cited:

Quote:
(b) Basic training must include:
*(1) instruction in the fundamentals of pistol use;
*(2) successful completion of an actual shooting qualification exercise; and
*(3) instruction in the fundamental legal aspects of pistol possession, carry, and use, including self-defense and the restrictions on the use of deadly force.[/b]
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Old March 11, 2011, 08:45 PM   #19
Gbro
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Yes -- the LEGAL aspects of self-defense, not the tactical application. From the statute (or regulation) you cited:
Yes you are right. I will review this with my boss.
I had actually instituted this with my re-certification students and then also introduced weak hand to all. I was doing draw exercises with re-certification students but without a brick wall barrier for the awaiting students I dropped it.
I was not comfortable with shoot and move scenarios.
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Last edited by Gbro; March 11, 2011 at 08:54 PM.
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Old March 11, 2011, 10:33 PM   #20
ClydeFrog
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Shooting event, after-math, "hot-wash" or AAR from it...

This is a sad event and I feel sorry for the loss. My heart goes out to the victim's family & friends/co-workers.

This was a accident but it shows why training & safe gun handling methods are so important!
A class instructor should have red guns or dummy prop type guns from makers like ASP, Ring or Blackhawk to clearly explain or show the firearm's safety features or proper techniques. Some may gripe about $$$ or buying training aids but these stupid accidents can & will continue until more instructors/students start being more alert.

I've posted on gun/tactics forums before a few times, that if I were a pistol-NRA class instructor and the training standards or range allowed it, I'd only have CCW or entry level students use DA only revolvers or hammer fired DA only semi auto pistols. Striker fired & single action auto pistols(like the 1911a1 or the Hi-Power) are best for advanced skill levels or students who known/understand firearms.
About 2 years ago, a NRA trained class instructor shot a student in a church sponsored program in my area. Some of the same factors were at play.
Many new students want to "be like Daddy" when it comes to weapons or training. The smart or mature firearms teacher will take it slow & guide these students through each step.
The safe way is the best way!
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Old March 11, 2011, 11:27 PM   #21
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClydeFrog
This was a accident but it shows why training & safe gun handling methods are so important!
A class instructor should have red guns or dummy prop type guns from makers like ASP, Ring or Blackhawk to clearly explain or show the firearm's safety features or proper techniques. Some may gripe about $$$ or buying training aids but these stupid accidents can & will continue until more instructors/students start being more alert.
But a blue gun, such as those by Ring, has NO moving parts. Such props cannot be used to teach a movement such as sweeping off a thumb safety with any degree of realism. Such instruction is not really the purpose of inert "blue gun" type training props. They are more for exercises in hand-to-hand disarms, etc.

There are very realistic NON-FIRING replica guns out there, both revolvers and semi-autos. I think replicas such as that are ideal for the classroom portions of a firearms (or "handgun") safety class, where you never know how dumb some student may be so you really REALLY want to be sure there can't be a loaded gun, yet you need something with moving parts to explain the various types of actions to the students. Even airsoft guns will suit the purpose -- but you can buy all-metal functional replicas for less than a mid-grade airsoft.

However, it appears that all such discussion is moot, because what I get from the article is that the instructor was conducting a live fire, weak hand exercise. As has been discussed, such an exercise is not appropriate for a basic, pre-CCW handgun safety course.

It is beyond any doubt a tragic incident. I think it should serve as a wake-up call for ALL CCW course instructors to review what and how they teach. As well as to perhaps add another reiteration or three of the four basic rules. In this incident, at least two of the rules were violated:

* Keep your finger OFF the trigger until your sights are on the target and you are ready to fire

* Never point the muzzle at anything you are not willing to destroy.

We can't expect new students to have those rules firmly ingrained in their noggins after a couple or few hours sitting through a class that may be boring or confusing, or even both (alternating). So during the live fire portion of a class it is the responsibility of the instructor to ensure that each student follows the four rules -- whether he/she remembers them or not.
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Old March 12, 2011, 05:44 AM   #22
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i agree with the above poster 99%... the other 1% of me says dont use dummy guns, but AIRSOFT guns. that way if you mess up and "shoot" yourself, it hurts!

but in all reality, its sad to hear that a lover (even a fairly new lover) of firearms lost their life in a firearms related incident. god bless the families and friends during these hard times
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Old March 12, 2011, 12:01 PM   #23
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This incident seems to have happened during the live fire portion of the MO CCW class. The standard course curriculum involves a classroom portion where you handle the legal and safety items, then you adjourn to a range for a course of live fire consisting of a 50 round practice string and a 20 or 25 round (I don't remember which) qualification string.

Needless to say, a nonfunctional firearm won't work in a live fire practice session. While I agree that such a tool is far better than a real gun, ESPECIALLY a loaded one, the point is that this was the wrong place and time for this kind of practice.

It remains that the instructor was trying to include too much in the class. He was introducing advanced concepts to students who are assumed to have barely the most basic of skill sets when it was neither required nor really a good idea. By the time you get to the range and start involving live ammo in a MO CCW course, any introductory gun handling should have long since been completed. That is no time to have people doing strange things, and it goes triple for doing them with a strange gun.
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Old March 14, 2011, 10:20 PM   #24
Justice06RR
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Sounds like a remote tragic accident. RIP to the fellow.
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Old March 14, 2011, 11:16 PM   #25
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It remains that the instructor was trying to include too much in the class. He was introducing advanced concepts to students who are assumed to have barely the most basic of skill sets when it was neither required nor really a good idea...
I agree with this completely! These classes are often populated by students who may have NEVER handled a handgun before. I've been shooting for 35 years, and I'd have trouble with weak hand drills after an 8 hour CCW class.

As such, I don't believe that a typical CCW class is the place to learn tactical shooting skills...they are intended to introduce students to the basics of handgun handling, shooting and marksmanship. Any further training should come at their own discretion and interest level.

I feel terrible for this gentleman and his family. He needn't have died in this way.
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