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Old March 11, 2011, 08:27 PM   #51
sakeneko
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FWIW, I agree with most of the thread. B. Lahey chose well and acted well throughout. Having a gun, and having justification for shooting, doesn't always mean that you should shoot. If you have an option that doesn't significantly risk your life or somebody else's, I'd take it. And Lahey did. Good job.
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Old March 11, 2011, 08:33 PM   #52
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Should my life be under imminent deadly threat I shoot to stop the threat. The BG had better surrender real fast, because my gun is out and fired in 4 tenths of a second.

In the incident outlined, the robber did not present a weapon or rush the GG.

Why would I shoot an unarmed man 15 to 21 feet away from me? Because he says he has a weapon? Gotta do more than that. I would order him to stop and kiss the pavement, then call in the cavalry, and you wanna know I wouldn't take my eyes off the BG excepting glances to my six.
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Old March 11, 2011, 08:46 PM   #53
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Live to fight another day. You chose wisely. I would have done the same.

My feeling is that, while my hand would have gone immediately to my gun, in preparation, I would have done everything to dissuade this individual. The gun is there only as the absolute last resort.
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Old March 12, 2011, 03:12 PM   #54
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Seaman:

Quote:
if the gun comes out, it goes boom.
Quote:
I would order him to stop and kiss the pavement
You would give him such orders without drawing? Would you expect compliance? And if he did not comply would you then feel justified to draw and shoot? And if so, can you elucidate how you feel your life would be more at risk at that point than a moment before?

I'm not sure I understand what you are recommending or how it relates to current law.

OP did fine, with the sole exception that if he turned his back on a potential assailant, he took a risk he perhaps shouldn't have.
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Old March 12, 2011, 03:47 PM   #55
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To the original poster,

Your actions prove that you carry a gun as a last resort. As any of us should.

You did well, and I am glad you emerged unscathed.
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Old March 12, 2011, 04:15 PM   #56
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Shoot if you have to, run when you can. Good decision.
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Old March 12, 2011, 04:24 PM   #57
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I can't fault you in the least. Retreat, when possible, is always preferable to resorting to our weapons. Plus, if the worst-case scenario does happen and you end up having to resort to deadly force, being able to show that you did all you could to avoid it is always a good thing. Good show.
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Old March 12, 2011, 04:59 PM   #58
Seaman
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Yo Tailgator:

Have run following protocol by three different south-east Michigan PDs and they are fine with it. Also reviewed it (during a training session) with a retired Detroit police officer, of 2 decades service, now instructor, who lectures on CCW related legal issues.

Please note that Michigan has open carry, concealed carry, and a brandishing law.

My self defence protocol is as follows:

If I am approached by a suspect BG who looks menacing/threatening I do NOT draw my weapon until it is 100% certain that there is an imminent deadly threat. For example - the suspect rushes at me with a knife drawn, or threatens me and draws a gun.

And if I don't see a weapon, but strongly suspect trouble, I order the BG to stop and back off.

My gun would NOT be presented while ordering the suspect.

If the suspect is innocent he can simply stop and withdraw.

If the suspect has verbally threatened me and stated he is armed (but no weapon presented or seen by me) and intends robbing me, he would have the choice of complying with my stop and drop order, or fleeing, or attacking.

I would only draw my gun if attacked. And yes, if I draw my gun it goes boom.

If the preceeding is not clear, please query further.
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Old March 12, 2011, 05:49 PM   #59
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Thanks for the clarification, Seaman. I notice two things:

(1) The protocol that you proposed to the instructors and LEOs lacked the "kiss the pavement" line. I would not expect compliance to that line. I am not clear on when you go from "stop and withdraw" to "stop and drop." Telling someone firmly to back off is tried and true. Ordering someone to the ground, with no badge and no weapon, maybe not so much.

(2) I am not on board with the idea that a drawn gun has to be fired. You yourself indicated that when an assailant sees you are armed he might surrender or flee (if you can forgive the paraphrase). Shooting a surrendering or fleeing assailant will, in many jurisdictions, be a pretty big problem. There are claims that an extraordinarily large number of defensive uses of a firearm are successful without a shot being fired. (My foggy memory says 95%?) We should be prepared to fire, but we should also be prepared to spare ourselves the emotional, legal, and financial hardship of firing unnecessarily.
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Old March 12, 2011, 06:43 PM   #60
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Congratulations. The good news is you're not going through the emotionally draining "are they going to charge me" / "should I cover my A**" / get a lawyer at $$$, etc.

And, it's very very unlikely you're going to end up the victim in a civil suit.

Congratulations, YOU WON!
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Old March 12, 2011, 07:39 PM   #61
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Hallo TailGator -

"Kiss the pavement," you're right, a touch colorful.

Stop and drop --- for the perp threatening armed robbery --- Suffice it to say I would make it abundantly clear that I wanted them on the ground, facedown, arms and legs spread. Whether they comply is up to them. If the BG withdraws, thats fine, I am in no danger and my gun is still concealed. If he attacks, I defend myself, meaning I draw and shoot.

Stop and back-off (withdraw) --- Is for when I am 100% sure the person moving towards me is dangerous but has not verbally threatened me or shown a weapon. If he continues moving towards me I would try to withdraw and put distance between us. If he attacks, I defend myself.

(Example --- My wife was once pushing the baby stroller late at night. She heard a quick succession of footfalls behind her, she wheeled and in a firm clear voice shouted -- "STOP, BACK OFF." It worked.)

"You yourself indicated that when an assailant sees you are armed he might surrender or flee (if you can forgive the paraphrase)." [TailGator] Did not say that, hope I did not imply that.

The only time the assailant will see my gun is when it is drawn...if he sees it at all...and I don't draw unless I am under deadly attack...point being the bad guy will be attacking me, likely 3-8 feet from me...the perp has been warned, all I can do now is draw and fire.

I would never shoot someone who is withdrawing, fleeing, or otherwise surrendering. But understand, any talking I do, my gun is concealed. It only comes out when I have to use it.

When the gun comes out, it goes boom, because if it doesn't go boom, I get cut, or shot, or battered, etc.

Hope this clarifies things, thanks for your comments.
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Old March 12, 2011, 08:23 PM   #62
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Only drawing with intent to shoot...

... ignores the statistic that in over 90% of cases when a gun is drawn for self-defense, the attack stops without shots fired.

So, the odds are good that drawing the weapon will be a strong deterrent.

One can't count on the draw alone doing the job, and one should be prepared to actually shoot, but one should not discount the extremely strong possibility that the draw itself will deter the BG.

Some folks seem to argue that they worry about a brandishing charge in such instances.

My counter to that is simple: In order to avoid a "brandishing" charge, you are willing to let the situation develop to where you may have to face a "homicide", "manslaughter", or "aggravated assault with battery while using a firearm" charge; how does this make sense?

To the poster who said he wouldn't draw until he saw a weapon: better hope you're a faster draw than the BG if he really has one; also, who says he'll draw from his pocket? I wouldn't need to, with my 442.... A BG who actually has gun in pocket could just shoot without drawing.
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Old March 12, 2011, 08:49 PM   #63
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A perp can draw from anywhere. In a showdown NEVER lose sight of the perps hands.

4 tenths of a second (with one accurate shot) is the best I can do. Not Bill Jordan speed, but it'll have to do.
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Old March 12, 2011, 09:04 PM   #64
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I see no logic to the general attitude in this thread - ie, the results of the OP's action were positive; therefore, his actions were wise. That is no better than a gambler going in and betting his home and life savings on one spin of the roulette wheel. Ok, he won the spin and won a billion dollars; therefore, the gambler's actions were wise.

The results of the encounter were actually determined by the actions of the bad guy. If he had been armed and had chosen to draw and shoot, the results of the encounter would likely have been different and the thread responses likely would have drifted toward critizing the OP's decision to turn and run and leave the bad guy with ultimate control.

Being a mathematician, I would NEVER allow anyone to convince me that the roll of the dice coming up seven the first roll indicated that would be the wise bet every time I roll the dice. Having seen one outcome out of many possiblilities is not a smart way of calculating the odds for a positive outcome in general.
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Old March 13, 2011, 09:25 AM   #65
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Seaman, I think we shall just have to agree to disagree. I see no reason that a person intent on an armed or strong-arm robbery would stop and get down on the ground just because you or I said so. This scenario reminds me in some ways of the idea that bad guys will observe signs and laws prohibiting them from having guns, in that their lack of respect for rules is what makes them bad guys to begin with. I would have zero expectation of compliance if I gave such an order without drawing. Perhaps you have a more authoritative voice than do I.

I am trying to imagine a situation where I would feel justified in ordering a stranger to the ground but not justified in clearing leather, and I honestly can't come up with one.

Plus, as MLeake said more eloquently and accurately than I, your policy loses you the very real opportunity to end the threat by producing a firearm but not firing.
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Old March 13, 2011, 11:03 AM   #66
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Quote:
Posted by Seaman: I would order him to stop and kiss the pavement, then call in the cavalry, and you wanna know I wouldn't take my eyes off the BG excepting glances to my six.
I am not sure why you think it would be wise to issue such an unenforceable command without having given any indication that you are armed, or why it would be to your benefit as someone who is not a sworn officer to try to hold the person in the first place.

I'm sure you are well aware that you may not shoot simply because he chooses to not comply.

I'm not sure you have considered the legal risks, criminal and civil, that you would face should he turn out to be unarmed and dispute your account of the encounter.

And, of course, the tactical risks--getting shot in the back or side by his accomplice while your attention is focussed on him, "glances to your six" notwithstanding.

Not the best idea, in my view.....

Whether and when one should draw in such a situation is going to depend on a lot of things and will require some quick judgment.

If it turns out that you were in fact in imminent danger and did not draw quickly enough, the outcome could be disastrous.

If you draw, and the danger dissipates with no shots having been fired, great.

If you draw and shoot and he drops a weapon, you have defended yourself against the immediate threat, and your action will then be the subject of an investigation.

If it turns out that he was unarmed and bluffing and you draw, or draw and shoot, you had better hope that you can produce some evidence of justification, and that you are not faced with unfavorable witness testimony.

The outcome for the OP was just fine.
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Old March 13, 2011, 12:06 PM   #67
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TailGator:

I was trained by professionals who instructed me very clearly, if you are ATTACKED, you draw and shoot. Period.

As for the 90% that drawing and talking worked out for (MLeake stats), that's good, for the other 10%, hope they survived.

Anytime a gun is drawn many bad things can and do happen, I choose to avoid that.

"I'm sure you are well aware that you may not shoot simply because he chooses to not comply." [OldMarksman]

No mention of that in any of my posts. Read them all. Thank you for your comments.

In the real life example cited, I would have ordered the perp to stop and drop, (he would have complied, withdrawn or attacked) I would not have drawn unless attacked.

You're a good man TailGator, I have family in Florida, next visit I'll stop in at a local PD and see what they think of my sd protocol.

All the best.
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Old March 13, 2011, 12:56 PM   #68
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Quote:
Posted by Seaman: I was trained by professionals who instructed me very clearly, if you are ATTACKED, you draw and shoot. Period.
I respectfully suggest that that instruction is oversimplified, or that it is incorrect, or that you have remembered it incorrectly.

What's wrong with it? First, to justify the use of deadly force or the threat thereof, the threat must be imminent and very serious (capable of causing death or serous bodily harm), and you must have no other means of avoiding the danger; second, your having drawn does not mean that you have to shoot.

I suggest that you study this, very carefully.

So, to try to put it in the terms of a decision tree:
  1. Do you have reason to believe that the person, or persons, have the ability, the opportunity, and the intent to cause death or serious bodily harm? If no--do not draw; if yes, go to (2).
  2. Do you have any safe (to you) means of avoiding such harm, short of threatening or using deadly force?If yes, avail yourself of the alternative; if no, draw, and go to (3). Note: there is no requirement that an actual attack has been started.
  3. Does your presentation of a weapon cause the imminent danger to dissipate? If yes--do not shoot; if no, you may shoot.

There are minor variations in a couple of jurisdictions, namely, Arizona and Texas.

I hope you find this helpful.

Quote:
In the real life example cited, I would have ordered the perp to stop and drop,...
And should he for some strange reason comply, you would now be liable for anything that may happen to him, your fault or not, and you would be potentially subject to criminal sanctions, should you be unable to produce adequate evidence that he had in fact committed the kind of offense that justifies a citizen's arrest in your jurisdiction.

All downside, no upside. Better to leaver that to trained, indemnified, sworn officers.

Last edited by OldMarksman; March 13, 2011 at 01:06 PM.
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Old March 13, 2011, 01:03 PM   #69
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Seaman,

1) If you are ATTACKED, draw and shoot. Makes perfect sense, the attack has already commenced. (Assuming the sort of attack that justifies deadly force.)

But that doesn't address the period where you are threatened, before the attack has commenced.

2) Trained by which professionals? In what environment?

You do realize a lot of posters here are LE, right? And many others are military, right?

There are a lot of posters here who've had much more training than I have had. With that in mind, I've received training on the military side from instructors from several services, including Navy Master-at-Arms, Marine drill instructors, Army drill sergeants, and ODA members. (I was not on an ODA; I just happened to luck out on some liaison duty, and I never turn down free ammo and range time.) On the civilian side, had an initial session in 2001 and later refresher in 2007 for a Florida CCW (those covered legal aspects more than tactical).

For hostile conditions, leaving the weapon holstered or slung when under imminent threat would be considered ridiculous, and probably dereliction of duty in a military context.

For peacetime conditions or non-permissive ROE, all of those instructors taught the theory of escalation of force, or force continuum. None said to leave the weapon holstered until it was absolutely necessary to shoot. Not one.

I'll attend Massad Ayoob's MAG-40 class later this year, and I suspect he also won't teach "leave it holstered until you decide to shoot the guy." I'll have to let you know his take on it this August.

3) I never said drawing and talking would be the end-all. In fact, I specifically said not to expect that to be the end-all, but to be ready for the possibility that it might end the scenario. But even though I'm in good shape, and of reasonable size (6'/210) I don't particularly expect a potential attacker to stop because I tell him to, if he doesn't see the weapon.

If he stops when he sees the weapon, so much the better. If he doesn't, the weapon is drawn and ready, and I'm actually a pretty good shot.

4) Speaking of drawn and ready, do you get that .4 second draw time you mentioned from a concealed holster? If so, from under how many layers of clothing? Have you tried it when a BG is already in physical contact? Have you ever had clothing snag, or some other hindrance that slowed down your draw? What do you suppose the odds are that Murphy will have some say in your draw speed, if you wait until you really need to shoot?

Last edited by MLeake; March 13, 2011 at 01:34 PM.
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Old March 13, 2011, 01:56 PM   #70
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"Trained by which professionals? In what environment?" [MLeake]

Training done by professionals (at a Michigan State approved training facility) with umpteen years of military and police background who certified me as part of the requirements pursuant to the aquisition of a Michigan Concealed Pistol License.

"But that doesn't address the period where you are threatened, before the attack has commenced."[Ibid]

I agree, its a gray area...I'm not saying your method is incorrect, whatever brings you out intact is fine with me...I'm just saying I was taught differently, for me it lessens the chances of gunplay, the last thing I want to do is draw the gun, and I will do anything I can to safely avoid violence. Depending on the situation I might just punch out the perp, but I would not draw the gun unless attacked.

"For hostile conditions, leaving the weapon holstered or slung when under threat would be considered ridiculous, and probably dereliction of duty in a military context." [Ibid]

The CPL is not a military license.

"Do you get that .4 second draw from a concealed holster? Under how many layers of clothing? Have you tried it when a BG is already in physical contact? Have you ever had clothing snag, or some other hindrance that slowed down your draw? What do you suppose the odds are that Murphy will have some say in your draw speed, if you wait until you really need to shoot? " [Ibid]

Yes, one layer, no, no, Murphy or....Lady Luck has been with me so far.

The (fast draw) gun I carry is the perfect rough and tumble gun, that can pretty much be used as easily as you use your fist.

The whole trick in my fast draw is not fast draw, its more like fast illusion, the body is almost motionless, almost like a magician's trick where something is magically produced from nothing.

Thank you for the interesting comments.

PS --- OldMarksman, just saw your post, thank you, I'll comment once I've reviewed it.
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Old March 13, 2011, 02:17 PM   #71
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"And should he for some strange reason comply, you would now be liable for anything that may happen to him, your fault or not, and you would be potentially subject to criminal sanctions, should you be unable to produce adequate evidence that he had in fact committed the kind of offense that justifies a citizen's arrest in your jurisdiction." [OldMarksman]

An excellent point. The perp may well be unarmed, and likely deny all wrongdoing.

Its a cruel world, since the time of Jesus, the criminal has had the advantage: he plans, picks his ground, and commits the crimes, and somehow the good citizen must successfully defend himself, all the while avoiding physical and monetary harm.

Thanks for the web referral, I'll check with my police contacts and if there is anything new to report, I shall do.
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Old March 13, 2011, 04:58 PM   #72
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Interesting thread - by the way, police contacts aren't the sole decider if you get in trouble. You might want to discuss things with local DAs and/or self-defense attorneys.

Since lots of us know police, attorneys, trainers, etc. - who teach more than just getting a carry license course and DON'T ever say you must shoot if you draw, I suggest more research is needed.

License courses from that one 'expert' dude can get strange at times.
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Old March 13, 2011, 09:02 PM   #73
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Quote:
Training done by professionals (at a Michigan State approved training facility) with umpteen years of military and police background who certified me as part of the requirements pursuant to the aquisition of a Michigan Concealed Pistol License.

Thats why you use terms like "check six"

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Old March 13, 2011, 11:46 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Bartley
...You said that you felt good about evading danger, and that is very understandable but I wonder, how do you feel about the other guy having been beaten? How would you have felt if he had been maimed, or killed? ... Would you have felt better then had you shot the bad guy?...

In my view that should not properly be a consideration.
How presumptive to think I was asking that as if it were a consideration as to whether or not the original poster should have shot the bad guy. It was only a question about he he felt afterwards and about he he may have felt afterwards had things turned out differently. Remember, this post was not solely about whether or not he handled it properly but how he felt afterwards. I was making an inquiry, not suggesting he draw and fire a weapon based upon any sort of comic book or fantasy novel seer saying ability based upon his emotions. You implied way too much, about what you think I was getting at, from a question I asked.

How anyone here interprets that as me advocating shooting someone on how you think you may later feel, well you are just being quite less than inciteful.

One person here did mention that he was amazed at how folks like me, he used my words to quote, think that we are responsible for the actions of others. I do not beleive that unless I trick or force others to do something. I beleive I am responsible for my own actions and not those of anyone else. I also believe though, I am responsible for my own inaction and that to take no action can at times be morally wrong or can be wrong in my line of thinking; I also know that in fact it can also be legally wrong in certain types of cases. (I am not saying in this type of case.) Yet none of that was in my queston. I asked someone how he thought he would have felt if things had turned out differently in specific ways and pointed out how I would feel. None of that was to make a person think, not even for a moment, that how you think you would feel later would justify shooting earlier.


All the best,
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Old March 14, 2011, 05:04 AM   #75
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Lahey,

The action you took was the very best thing you could have done. Lawyers are quick to tell people what the should, or should not do. They don't tell you how to live with it after wards. In law enforcement we had a 90-10, 10-90 concept that sure seemed to be right on the ball. 90-10 means 90% of the people only do 10% of the crime, and 10-90 means 10% of the people do 90% of the crime. Killing someone is as big a crime as we know of. It seems as if everyone who kills someone, such as in this case, at some time that person sits in judgement of what they did. They will know if the reason they did so was because it was the only thing they could do to stay alive. Or if it was because they thought they could get away with it. Today, when so many murders are "thrill killings" the fact that so many of these killers don't realize what they've done until much later is terrible. So many of them can't handle it. If thy cannot handle it, what chance does a decent person such as yourself
do. I don't know if you have reached that point yet or not, but after that the healing starts. You may be called different names by those who tell you you should have killed the man, but they are idiots. You did a damn good job!
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