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Old March 10, 2011, 11:59 PM   #26
Hiker 1
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Nobody got hurt and nobody went to jail or sued. Sounds like a pretty good outcome.
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Old March 11, 2011, 12:01 AM   #27
Frank Ettin
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Originally Posted by Hiker 1
Nobody got hurt and nobody went to jail ...
Well at least the guy who finally did go to jail was the one who actually deserved it.
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Old March 11, 2011, 05:47 AM   #28
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Doesn't sound like it worked out so well for the guy who got beat up at the Mexican restaraunt who got beat up. What if he did have a gun and shot the next guy, you'd be OK with knowing you could have prevented that?

We have stand your ground law in this state. That's something I've always done even before shall issue became law. It's not something I'll change now that I am armed. Just plain luck that he didn't blow your head off as you were driving away, I wouldn't chalk that up to tactics.
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Old March 11, 2011, 09:14 AM   #29
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Uhh, unless you can see the future, there's no way he could have known that someone would get beat up (or worse) later, and not your place to make that determination. It cracks me up to see the folks saying they would have just shot this guy. If you could articulate the belief that you were in danger, you could have been justified to draw on this toad, but not to shoot under these exact circumstances. You zap him for putting his hand in his pocket, and I guarantee you'll end up on the losing end here in the long run.

I'm not suggesting that someone should not protect themselves, but it must be done prudently. No need to beat up on the OP here for making the best decision for him at the time, given the circumstances.
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Old March 11, 2011, 09:37 AM   #30
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First thing's first...

Great job. You are a respectable model citizen. We are lucky to have you in our community.

Secondly (and more nit-pickey);
I like to make a distinction between "Running Away" and "Tactically Disengaging".

Running away is what people do when they have no other options. It's a defensive move with no other intent than self preservation. It's a "Get me out of here!" response.

Tactically disengaging, however, is a result of assessing the situation and deciding that leaving the situation is the most desirable course of action in order to preserve the safety of the most people. It's not a fear response, it's a calculated decision. It takes a quick mind, a cold head, and a steady hand. This is what I believe you accomplished and I commend you for it.

Tactically disengaging is one of our best options in any defense scenario; being a large part of our overall optimum outcome of Nonviolent resolution.

Well done, Sir.

~LT
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Old March 11, 2011, 09:56 AM   #31
Hiker 1
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Well at least the guy who finally did go to jail was the one who actually deserved it.

Right, at least the OP didn't go to jail.
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Old March 11, 2011, 10:30 AM   #32
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Well hindsight is always 20/20 so its a win! If I was packing I probably would have drawn on the guy, hoped he didn't charge or draw, hopped in the car, took off, called the police.
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Old March 11, 2011, 10:52 AM   #33
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A soon as he said he was planning on robbing me and put the hand in his pocket, I would have probably drawn on him. Your way worked and is probably the smarter way forward.
The best outcome prevailed. Everyone lived, and that's what matters.
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Old March 11, 2011, 01:03 PM   #34
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We who carry should always try to avoid shooting, not look for excuses TO shoot. It's about self-defense, bottom line.
I completely agree with this.

However, in this situation, I wouldn't have had a problem if you did shoot.

What's to say you turned to get into your car & he shoots you?

Again, I have no problem with your decision, I most likely would have done the same thing. I also would not have had a problem had you shot him, but a judge and jury might have seen things differently.

You never know.
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Old March 11, 2011, 01:08 PM   #35
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Slight misconception here,,,

I've read some silly things in these forums,,,
I've posted some fairly inane things in these forums.

This might top them all.

Quote:
What if he did have a gun and shot the next guy, you'd be OK with knowing you could have prevented that?
I say,,, Huh?

He is an armed citizen for self defense,,,
Not an armed vigilante.

Quote:
...you'd be OK with knowing you could have prevented that?
He's not an Oracle either.

~Sheesh!~

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Old March 11, 2011, 01:12 PM   #36
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IMHO, in this scenario the BG is putting his hand in his pocket to intimidate you. He knows you will think he has a concealed weapon. If you are in a situation where a BG is possibly holding a concealed weapon, has the ability and intent to use it... I think you have ever right to react with equal force. I don't think you can shoot cause the guy put his hand in his pocket, but you certainly can draw on the guy with every intent of using deadly force if the BG makes his move. Massad Ayoob talks about this in "The Gravest Extreme" to some degree, where the good guy is usually at a disadvantage because he morally and legally cannot make the first move.

Its certainly a grey area if the threat has been made, the BG has shown that he possibly has a weapon, but no weapon has been revealed. At the distance we are talking about, it could be a simple steak knife or any ol piece of hard object "shank" which would pose extreme danger to you. Police have shot people in this same scenario MANY times. Lets say you do draw and shoot... turns out the guy was poking his finger in his shirt to make it look like he has a pistol. Certainly a sticky situation legally, and you will have to live with yourself for shooting an unarmed man (granted he may have thrown away any chance for your pity when he put you in that situation).
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Old March 11, 2011, 01:45 PM   #37
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Bottom line, you survived and lived to tell the tale and I am happy for that.

As for the guy at the Mexican restaurant who took a needless beating...he shoulda had a carry permit, a small 25, 32, or even 380 woulda saved his bacon.
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Old March 11, 2011, 01:51 PM   #38
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Yeah, I wouldn't even think about what this dude did after you didnt, but could have, shot him. Most of the general public have no concern over their own safety. Why should that responsibility fall on you? You're no law man or vigilante. You just got held up and decided NOT to shoot the dude for it.
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Old March 11, 2011, 02:43 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Bartley
You said that you felt good about evading danger, and that is very understandable but I wonder, how do you feel about the other guy having been beaten? How would you have felt if he had been maimed, or killed? (Any information on how badly beaten the other victim was?) Would you have felt better then had you shot the bad guy? I am sure that if I put down a guy who had just tried to rob me, I would feel badly, I would feel guilty for having hurt or killed another person even if I had been fully justified. I also know, if I ran and the guy I evaded went on to hurt someone else I would feel miserable I had not stopped him when I had the chance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aarondhgraham
He is an armed citizen for self defense,,,
Not an armed vigilante.
Exactly. It's a source of endless fascination to me, in these discussions, that so many forum members are quick to say that if you don't shoot a "bad guy," you're somehow responsible for what he does after that. And it's often the same members who are quick to say that if a "good guy" accidentally shoots an innocent bystander while "taking out" a "bad guy," the good guy shouldn't be held responsible for the injury or death of the innocent; after all, he meant well.

We are responsible for, and have to live with, our own actions; we're not responsible for what other people may do.
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Old March 11, 2011, 03:18 PM   #40
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While I'm certainly glad that you're alright, that you didn't have to shoot anybody (the absolute last resort, without a doubt), and that you made decisions and acted decisively, there is still something that bugs me a little. As a couple of other posters have mentioned, what if the perp had not been bluffing? In my view, putting myself in your place, a threat is a threat regardless of the underlying truth because at that moment I don't (and can't) know whether the perp is armed and really intends to kill me. I have to react as if my life were in danger because for all I know it may be about to end within seconds!

Now, don't get me wrong--my first (and only, at least initially) priority is surviving the encounter, preferably unharmed, and without shooting anybody if at all possible. If I could escape quietly without endangering myself or even drawing my gun, then that's what I'd do. That said, what I would NOT do is allow a bad guy to outdraw and shoot me first (especially in the back) if I can prevent it. There's nothing wrong with retreat being the preferred option, but any notion of "duty to retreat" ends as soon as my life is actually threatened. I'd say that a guy who is trying to rob me reaching for his pocket in a threatening manner must be treated as a serious threat, and my response would be pointing a gun at him, ready to shoot (and evade any incoming fire) in an instant if he continues to escalate the situation.

If this is not a valid use of a gun, then aside from the obvious case of a home invasion, when can one use a gun (shooting only if forced to) in self-defense and for what reasons? I'd rather not wait to get shot first if I could have threatened the bad guy and thereby possibly avoided bloodshed altogether (or at least my own).
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Old March 11, 2011, 03:23 PM   #41
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Even in war, killing isn't easy, but beats the alternative for sure.
That is exacly what I told him.

Good no great news, he and his wife are expecting a child due in Oct. So now I can tell him if he hadnt come home that baby would never have been concived.

Glenn sure can rain on a persons parade.... how could he have known the guy would go and do that?

Do we gun down all those we feel would go and do harm to another? We may all be shot if that is the case......
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Old March 11, 2011, 03:29 PM   #42
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Given the general tone, not to mention topic, of this forum...its likely that most of us hold much higher standards on our own personal safety than most. I think if EVERYONE was as worried and vigilant about their own safety we would only see a fraction of the violent crime that we do today. Ya know... when you walk into a ma&pa corner store in Texas you are like 95% sure they have AT LEAST a loaded pistol under the counter. That's standard practice there. In NJ, that may be case 1% of the time
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Old March 11, 2011, 05:16 PM   #43
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I have to start off by saying that I can only hope that I would have handled the situation with such a level head as you displayed. You got out of the situation with no one getting hurt. That in itself is a WIN.

That being said, if it had been me, I probably would have pulled, if only to make it clear to the assailant that I was armed and prepared to defend myself. Odds are that would have made the assailant run away. In that case, I would not pursue, but would call 911 with a description of a dangerous individual. In this case, drawing would have been justified. (I don't know about other states, but in NC pointing a weapon at a person counts as use of force, but in this case it is legally justified, as the assailant led you to believe he had a weapon.)

I would wait for the police, give my statement and description, and feel that I had done my civic duty to do all I could to prevent this individual from harming others.
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Old March 11, 2011, 05:21 PM   #44
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Manco
I'd say that a guy who is trying to rob me reaching for his pocket in a threatening manner must be treated as a serious threat, and my response would be pointing a gun at him, ready to shoot (and evade any incoming fire) in an instant if he continues to escalate the situation.
I don't know that a jury of your peers would see it the same way.

This, could possibly escalate a bad situation to a worse situation. This is very "gray" area stuff, so right now I don't know if there is a right answer.

But to me, a person should not pull their gun, unless they feel their life is in grave danger, and if you think your life is in grave danger, why would you not shoot?

" My client was simply going to show the defendant a picture of his homeless daughter..... " He could go on to say, "After seeing the gun, my client reacted in self defense (blah, blah, blah) & got himself shot."

As it was said earlier, I'm not a cop - I'm not an armed vigilante. If my gun comes out, the decision to shoot has already been made.
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Old March 11, 2011, 05:58 PM   #45
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I'm happy for you that it turned out well...

... and happy that you didn't shoot him when he failed to produce a weapon.

However, I'm of the school that says it's safest to believe the threat. I'd have drawn, and told him to very slowly and carefully bring his hands into sight, while I backed around to the far side of my engine block.

I would not have turned my back on him, or left myself vulnerable as I tried to enter a vehicle, in case he really did have a weapon of any kind.

I'm not overly worried about a brandishing charge if a guy tries to rob me.

Note: I am not of the "You must shoot if you draw!" school as I think that is a bunch of BS. But I am of the "forgive from a position of strength" school.

Note2: I am not opposed to retreating, when it is tactically sound. I am just very leery of turning my back on somebody who claims to have a weapon, and ill intent, unless I am dead sure I can make it to cover. (I'm not that fast a runner, and I'm a bit on the long-torso'd side for ducking quickly into a vehicle door - as a scar or two on my scalp would attest.)
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Old March 11, 2011, 06:27 PM   #46
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I'm certainly in the "if you draw, you had better expect to have to shoot and not hesitate of forced to" crowd. No reason to shoot a guy cause he asks you for money and puts his hands in his pocket, but there is equally no reason why you should not think that is an aggressive act and respond accordingly. Retreating is always a great option, and is probably the best bet unless the BG has the means and intent to immediately take lethal action against you.
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Old March 11, 2011, 06:41 PM   #47
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If my gun comes out, the decision to shoot has already been made.
I disagree thunderkyss but respect your opinion. There is no need to shoot this indivdual if the threat is thwarted by drawing your weapon.
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Old March 11, 2011, 07:43 PM   #48
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Agree with thunderkyss, if the gun comes out, it goes boom.

No sense standing there holding a gun on an unarmed man, chances are I get shot by someone mistaking me for the perp.

Its happened.
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Old March 11, 2011, 07:50 PM   #49
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I disagree thunderkyss
Quote:
Agree with thunderkyss
Looks like the first amendment is alive and well, while discussing the second amendment.
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Old March 11, 2011, 07:51 PM   #50
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Good luck with that legal defense....

... as I'm pretty sure no state has a "it's always ok to fire the gun once drawn" clause.

If the BG surrenders, but you shoot because you drew, you are (and most likely should be) completely screwed.
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