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Old March 10, 2011, 08:39 AM   #26
tipoc
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The links which mavracer posted on the tests for the 9mm and the 40 S&W are worth taking a look at and studying some. I believe that when you do that a few points that are relevant to this discussion come through.

One: about 20 years ago the FBI established a protocol that jhp ammo should expand and penetrate to between 12-14" in 10% ballistic gelatin for them to consider it useful to them. Ammo manufacturers worked hard to acheive that. So you will note that the bulk of ammo from 9mm to 45acp tested in the workshops posted does just that irregardless of caliber or bullet weight. The rounds that do not and penetrate further tend to be where the hollowpoint clogged and the ammo acted as ball does. This is useful information.

The rounds that were heavier tended to penetrate an inch or so more.

A good deal of energy is transferred through expansion. When the round does not expand, or not fully expand, that energy is available and used most often in penetration.

Quality jhp ammo of today tends to penetrate and expand to 12-14" in ballistic gelatin no matter what caliber of bullet weight.

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Old March 10, 2011, 09:04 AM   #27
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you say you don't equate kenetic energy to stopping power and yet you wield it like a sword.proclaiming the 124's superiority because of it.

my arguement that momentum had a more prolific effect is substantiated by the actual tests. Just because you state opinion as fact IE
Quote:
but 2.21% is negligible in real world conditions.
does not make it true as I posted the tests that prove in the real world that the momentum of the 147 does in fact lead to superior penatration with nearly equal expansion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCP281
Again, until you show me some some kind of physical relationship that disproves anything I said
FOLLOW THE LINK THE PROOF IS THERE IN THE REAL PHYSICAL TESTS
http://le.atk.com/pdf/PortlandWoundBallisticReport1.pdf
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Old March 10, 2011, 07:51 PM   #28
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JCP when I was referring to the 147 standard being similar to the 124 +p in performance I wasn't refering to velocity or KE. Testing of Winchester Ranger, Fed HST, and Speer GD showed better penetration, (not much better,) with the 147 grain 9mm and similar expansion (all the 9mm 147 & 124+p or +P+ were .62 and up, though one +P+ was .70.)

The Winchester Ranger 147 grain 9mm penetrated better then the +p and the 357 Sig. The 357 sig expanded to .63 and the 147 grain 9mm expanded to .62. Pretty darn close. The 9mm 147 grain also penetrated better then the 40 S&W, but the 40 S&W expanded to .68.
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Old March 10, 2011, 09:30 PM   #29
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While 147 grain JHP 9mm loads have been suspect in the past, the HST and the most updated versions of its competitors now perform well in terms of expansion reliability, and in general I personally prefer heavier bullets for their edge in penetrating soft, squishy things (e.g. bad guys). In the case of two specific loads (124 and 147 grain HST) in a specific gun, however, I would recommend shooting both to find out which works better for you in terms of point of impact, recoil, etc. because both should be pretty close in effectiveness overall.
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Old March 11, 2011, 07:28 AM   #30
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math vs common sense (and what's actually in the chamber)

I note that regardless of the 147g performance in labratory testing, the 115--127g .355" projectiles continue to be the ones issued, whether in the 9x19 or 357 SIG.

When even the most effective 147g projectile gets launched in the 9x19, its velocity is of the 38 Special variety.

Think about the clean-sheet 357 SIG cartridge, designed from its inception with the 125g weight in mind. Any heavier projectile could have been chosen during its development, but those involved picked the bullet weight they expected to be the most effective for stopping people.

Static testing in the laboratory can prove varied concepts, but active testing on people provides us significant proofs.
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Old March 11, 2011, 10:26 AM   #31
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Quote:
I note that regardless of the 147g performance in labratory testing, the 115--127g .355" projectiles continue to be the ones issued, whether in the 9x19 or 357 SIG.
Again with opinions stated as fact. I know that many LE in fact do issue 147gr HST and Ranget-T series some have even switched from the lighter bullets.

Quote:
When even the most effective 147g projectile gets launched in the 9x19, its velocity is of the 38 Special variety.
A: the 158gr +P LSWCHP (The FBI load) has an exellent street reputation.B: the 9mm 147 adds a little over 100 fps.and C: I'm not sure what your getting at with this arguement. I mean that's a kin to saying "you hit like a girl" and pointing to Layla Ali.
Quote:
Think about the clean-sheet 357 SIG cartridge, designed from its inception with the 125g weight in mind. Any heavier projectile could have been chosen during its development, but those involved picked the bullet weight they expected to be the most effective for stopping people.
The .357 sig was designed with a singular purpose to duplicate the vaunted 125gr 357 Magnum ballistics in a service size auto.Choosing a different bullet weight would have been kinda counter productive.
Quote:
Static testing in the laboratory can prove varied concepts, but active testing on people provides us significant proofs.
Just where do you go to test your new loads on people
look 30 years ago 115 Silver tips were concidered one of the best 9mm loads one failed and started all this ammo testing.they go to the lab redesign and then send it out on the street. 20 years ago 147gr 9mm didn't expand consistantly they went to the lab and redesigned it.They work now as proved in the lab and on the street. Is the 147 better than the 124 for the true answer to that I'm going to need to know the exact bullet path through Mr Badguy so I know weather I want 1" more penatration or is that temporary cavity going to tear open that one vessel. Given the fact that no one can tell me that and Common Sense tells me 99.9% of the time it's not gonna matter. I'll stick with what works in the gun and hits POA.
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Last edited by mavracer; March 11, 2011 at 10:44 AM.
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Old March 11, 2011, 12:47 PM   #32
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Quote:
you say you don't equate kenetic energy to stopping power and yet you wield it like a sword.proclaiming the 124's superiority because of it.

my arguement that momentum had a more prolific effect is substantiated by the actual tests. Just because you state opinion as fact IE
Quote:
but 2.21% is negligible in real world conditions.
does not make it true as I posted the tests that prove in the real world that the momentum of the 147 does in fact lead to superior penatration with nearly equal expansion.
I just wanted to point out that the momentum of the bullets does not explain why the 147 grain has more penetration. Its not momentum, its inertia(an objects resistance to change).

I did a quick statistical analysis on a data set and came up with the averages of both 124 grain and 147 grain penetration. When I took the percent differences between the 2, I came out with 11.55%. Before I took the average, I also did the high and low value percent difference between the 124 and 147 and came up with basically the same 17% difference that I got with the mass percent difference. So you can see that its the inertia of the heavier mass 147 grain that allows it to penetrate a little further, not momentum.

If it was in fact momentum, the 2% figure would have reared its head, which it did not. So again, the momentum is negligible in this case because momentum is dependent on velocity.

And never did I say KE was the end all be all data point, but it sure does let you know how much potential the bullet has at creating damage and stopping someone. Something I find rather important in my short barrel CC pistol.
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Old March 11, 2011, 02:46 PM   #33
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Physics wise you guys lost me a long time ago in this conversation. I would like to ask which weight bullet are most fixed sighted 9mm sighted for? POI=POA
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Old March 11, 2011, 03:35 PM   #34
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I like the 147 for medium to full size autos and the 124 for subcompacts.
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Old March 11, 2011, 04:36 PM   #35
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Shoot the load that you can shoot more accurately...the rest is purely academic. Meaning that it doesn't matter. As long as you use newer designed bullets, they both expand fine.

I like the 147s because my gun shoots them better (more accurately and slightly less recoil impulse). 147s are NOT too heavy...they come out of the muzzle of my gun just fine.
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Old March 11, 2011, 04:47 PM   #36
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Quote:
I would like to ask which weight bullet are most fixed sighted 9mm sighted for? POI=POA
I have read many times it is the 124 grain but don't have a definitive source.
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Old March 11, 2011, 05:10 PM   #37
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bullet performance

I am assuming that you are looking for a defense load. From a practical performance stand point any high quality JHP bullet will work.

The most important issue is what happens after you defend yourself. That being the case you should probably use the same bullet carried by your local law enforcement. This prevents an over zealous assistant Attorney General from protraying your bullet selection as a premediated act to commit murder.

Yes it happens in AZ.
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Old March 11, 2011, 09:45 PM   #38
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Quote:
I would like to ask which weight bullet are most fixed sighted 9mm sighted for?
The standard for many decades has been the 115 gr bullet with the 124 widely used as well. Standards for fixed sight guns are set at either 25 yards or 25 meters with either a poa/poi hold or a 6 o'clock hold on a 6" bull. This varies with manufacturer. The difference between the poi with the 124 and 115 gr. bullets will be only two to three inches at 25 yards. Not much difference in the real world. The 147 will vary a bit more.

I have a couple of H-Powers which are set for the 124 while a CZ75 I have seems to be set for the 115.

Shoot some of each weight to see how they work in your gun.

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Old March 12, 2011, 06:33 AM   #39
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logic has convinced me

I will no longer advocate for the 124g weight, the one many +P loads and the 357 SIG bring into the vaunted 357 Magnum range.
I will instead advocate for the 147g, the one that gets near the 158g +P 38.
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Old March 12, 2011, 08:31 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCP281
I just wanted to point out that the momentum of the bullets does not explain why the 147 grain has more penetration. Its not momentum, its inertia(an objects resistance to change).
Really What's the formula for figuring inertia.LOL
yes inertia is the principle at work here but since we are talking about a object in motion being stopped, it is most certainly it's momentum which must be stopped.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCP281
I did a quick statistical analysis on a data set and came up with the averages of both 124 grain and 147 grain penetration. When I took the percent differences between the 2, I came out with 11.55%. Before I took the average, I also did the high and low value percent difference between the 124 and 147 and came up with basically the same 17% difference that I got with the mass percent difference. So you can see that its the inertia of the heavier mass 147 grain that allows it to penetrate a little further, not momentum
I would point out that I never argued that it's greater momentum did not come from it's greater mass.I would also point out if your theory that it is the 147s mass that allows it to penatrate further you wouldn't need the gun you could just throw them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCP281
If it was in fact momentum, the 2% figure would have reared its head, which it did not. So again, the momentum is negligible in this case because momentum is dependent on velocity.

And never did I say KE was the end all be all data point, but it sure does let you know how much potential the bullet has at creating damage and stopping someone. Something I find rather important in my short barrel CC pistol.
just exacticly where did your 25% more energy go in your statistical analisis.

Quote:
I will no longer advocate for the 124g weight, the one many +P loads and the 357 SIG bring into the vaunted 357 Magnum range.
where is the 124+p 9mm that has 600 ft.lbs of energy.cause now we're talking about energy figures that might make a difference and still be able to keep me happy with their penatration.
Try reading much of the information here http://www.ballisticstestinggroup.org/ you may well get a better grasp of what energy levels must be in order to start having a real effect.
and even at that there is not a point that it starts to happen.you must have a pretty drastic change in the amount of energy, before the measured results would be signifigant. IE it doesn't happen when going from a light 9mm to a heavy 9mm(100 ft.lbs.) but it will be a measurable difference when going from a heavy 9mm or 38+p to a light 357magnum where you double the energy from near 300 to over 600.

Now you want to argue that a full tilt 357 is better than the 147 9mm. Well then I'm inclined to agree because not only does it have a signifigant energy advantage but a good edge in momentum too.
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Last edited by mavracer; March 12, 2011 at 09:07 AM. Reason: add comment
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Old March 12, 2011, 11:28 AM   #41
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I never understood the point of a comparatively small/medium sized bullet going slow being better than one going another 300fps faster, as it was intended.

If you want to shoot a .38 Special, by all means, go ahead, but there is a reason they came out with a .357 Magnum and it's top load isn't all that far off from a 124+P 9mm (when being fired from a short barrel of course...)
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Old March 12, 2011, 02:07 PM   #42
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I don't understand why when you loose 200fps(far more accurate # and less than 20%) while gaining 20% more mass in the process, is somehow an important amount. but giving up the same nearly 20% of velocity with the same weight bullet is written off as nothing cause it's about the same.
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Old March 12, 2011, 02:17 PM   #43
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If the 147 meets or exceeds the old .38 FBI load, from 4" or longer barrels, it will be plenty. With today's bullets there is every indication that it will do just that. I guess it's a matter of whether you favor expansion or penetration.

My experience is that handguns do their work by knocking holes through stuff that matters. If the results aren't coming fast enough to suit you, that 'Reapply' switch right under your finger will bring about the desired result.
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Old March 13, 2011, 07:36 AM   #44
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Energy is important because it gives you how much "oomf" the bullet has behind it to do the work that the bullet is designed to do. If the bullet is a fast expander, more energy will help it expand more.....if the bullet is a deep penetrator, more energy will help it penetrate deeper.

Energy is an important thing....but it's not the only thing....
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Old January 27, 2013, 06:50 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JROD102
I personally tend to gravitate toward the 124gr as 147 I think to heavy for the 9mm cartridge to try to push,... well. 147 is I believe considered a sub-sonic round, which explains its over penetration and non-expansion.
Why do you say that the Federal HST 147 grain over-penetrates and does not expand? Please show me a test where in calibrated 10% ballistic gel, it went more than 18 inches deep and did not expand.
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Old January 27, 2013, 07:35 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dean1197:
Any input onto the pros and cons of each, and ultimately, which would you recommend?
I would like to go with 147gr, but i've heard (keep in mind heard) things about them.
I'd recommend the 147s. For any given expanded diameter and impact speed, the bullet with the highest sectional density will offer the greatest penetration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dean1197:
1. The first being that i've heard they over penetrate, which concerns me because not all of the bullets energy is being displaced into the target like it should be, and I wouldn't be surprised if this is true.
If they expand correctly, both the 124s and the 147s will stop well short of the 18" mark. If they don't expand correctly, both will act like an FMJ amd likely pass completely through a human body.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dean1197:
2. Another thing i've heard is that the bullets themselves lack the necessary velocity to expand reliably in the target.
That might've been the case in the early 90s, but it isn't now. Pick a premium design- HST, PDX1, Gold Dot, Ranger T, etc- and both weights (124 & 147 grain) of JHP will perform well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dean1197:
So, between the 2 which would you guys recommend (my primary question) and also, is there any validity to my 2 assumptions concerning the 147 gr. listed above.
Not any more.

Either weight is fine. I generally 'default' to heavy-for-caliber JHPs regardless of caliber. That means 147s for the 9, 180s for the .40/10mm, and 230s for the .45.

OTOH, if all I had was premium 9mm 124 gr JHPs, I'd carry them, too and feel just fine about it.
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Old January 27, 2013, 07:35 PM   #47
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The post you're asking about is almost 2 years old.

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Old January 27, 2013, 07:58 PM   #48
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ha ha ha

Let's hope that the OP has made a decision by now.
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Old January 27, 2013, 09:32 PM   #49
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Quote:
Let's hope that the OP has made a decision by now.
If not, he won't have much to choose from.....
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Old January 28, 2013, 03:21 PM   #50
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Both good rounds. I like mid-weight +P or +P+ roundsin general. Good balance of penetration and expansion in the 124gr. +P. But I have 147gr. HST's in non +P and +P. They actually open up about the same as the 124's and usually go a little deeper. Old advice but I would see which feed through my gun the best and was the most accurate. Their really is no bad choice here and I would carry the 124 +P's or either of the 147gr. loads without a worry. The HST is a superb load in any caliber.
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