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Old February 28, 2011, 05:49 PM   #1
waynes_world
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Need Help Identifing Newly Acquired Remington 1858???

Im getting this gun today in a trade im making.(good one)
i have been doing research on the itnernet and have not been able to come back with much.

can anyone tell me what they know about this gun and if is the real deal and maybe how much its worth. any info will be greatly appreciated

info i know:

1858 Remington .44 caliber
4-digit serial number like 2,100

the guy i am getting it from told me that his grandfather passed and they are auctioning his estate so he would rather trade me the gun for my 32in lcd, desktop computer and a gold ring.(lol)

i guess thats all i know about it, anymore info? i have attached some pics. it looks authentic.
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File Type: jpg IMG_0295.JPG (146.6 KB, 251 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_0297.JPG (133.0 KB, 204 views)
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Old February 28, 2011, 06:01 PM   #2
Hawg
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What's the barrel legend on the top flat say? Are there any other markings?
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Old February 28, 2011, 06:07 PM   #3
waynes_world
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i havent acually gotten the gun in my hands yet but, he sent me an email with info on it and he said this was on it it.

"PATENTED DEC. 17, 1861/MANUFACTURED BY REMINGTON'S ILION, N.Y.,"

THIS IS ALL THE INFO HE SENT ME....

"My father did quite a bit of research on his rarer guns and here is a little info that he had told me about and I then found references to online (more in depth information):

1. On the 1858 Remington There was another well thought out innovation that first appeared on late 1862 Old Model Armies and that was a small slot that was milled at the end of the cylinder in between the space between each cylinder so that the hammer could be rested on it. This meant that all six cylinders could be loaded and the gun carried quite safely knowing that if the hammer got knocked it would not hit a percussion cap consequently firing the gun (this wasn’t done on the first few thousand pistols; so, it is not the earliest of the three model transitions). Another indicator of the earliest model is the first large-framed revolvers made by E. Remington & sons were based on "Beals" 1858 patent, collectors call these first revolvers "Beals" models. About 2,000 were made in the army model, and slightly more in the "Navy" model. The army was .44 cal, with an 8" barrel while the navy model was in .36 cal with a 7 3/8" barrel. Finally, is the serial number on it (in the 6,000’s) This is a scarcer version of the Remington Army revolvers with varying estimates of 6,000 to just under 10,000 Old Models being produced. The Old Model Army serial numbers starts at where the Remington-Beals Army model ended at approximately number 1,900 and runs up to around number 10,000, where the more common "Transition" models of the Old Model Army begin. The serial number of this particular revolver is in the 2,100 range. The easiest Way to distinguish an Old Model Army from the "Transition" model and the subsequent New Model Army is the two-line barrel legend that is stamped "PATENTED DEC. 17, 1861/MANUFACTURED BY REMINGTON'S ILION, N.Y.," the dovetailed German-silver front sight, the longer hammer spur, and the channel cut along the top of the loading lever to allow removal of the cylinder without dropping the lever. The "Transition" models will have an Old Army barrel legend but a New Model short spur hammer, or New Model non-channeled loading lever, or a new model threaded bead sight, or safety notches on the cylinder shoulder between the nipples, or a combination of all. Almost 100% production of the Model 1861's went to fill U.S. Government orders."
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Old February 28, 2011, 08:53 PM   #4
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Sounds like the real deal.
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Old February 28, 2011, 11:26 PM   #5
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The 1861 Old Model Army and 1863 New Model Army, as well as the 'Transition' models had a cutout in the frame at the top where the cylinder met the barrel forcing cone. This cutout was intended to prevent fouling from locking up the cylinder, a 'feature' that was common on the original 1860 Remington-Beals Army Model Revolver. In that design the threads on the breach end of the barrel are visible between the frame and the cylinder face.

This gun appears to have the original frame design of the first model Remington-Beals, although it's a bit difficult to tell from the angle of the photo; I can see no barrel threads. A better picture of that area would help a great deal.
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Old March 1, 2011, 03:24 AM   #6
Hellgate
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Didn't the Beals lack the safety cutouts on the cylinder? I'm suspicious this is a Euroarms Remington. It sure looks like the Euros i have. The originals had very little "meat" (metal) on the frame where the barrel screws into the frame i.e. there is very little if any step where the barrel meets the frame on the originals. The angle of the photos doesn't show it well. A pureside view would help.
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Old March 1, 2011, 03:59 AM   #7
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According to Flayderman's, 9th (latest) edition, you have an early production 1861 Army.

He states: "Early manufacture used the Beals type frame with concealed barrel threads at the breech..."

He goes on to say that: "On late manufactured specimens safety notches were introduced at the rear of the cylinder..."

Values stated are:

(NRA antique standards) Good: $750.00; Fine: $2500.00.

"Good" is listed as "...some minor replacement parts; metal smoothly rusted or lightly pitted in places, cleaned or reblued; principal lettering, numerals and design on metal legible; wood refinished, scratched, bruised or minor cracks repaired; in good working order."

"Very Good" is listed as "...all original parts; none to 30 percent original finish; original metal surfaces and design on metal; wood slightly scratched or bruised; bore disregarded for collectors."

"Fine" is listed as "...all original parts; over 30 percent original finish; sharp lettering, numeral and design on metal and wood; minor marks in wood; good bore."

Judging from the pictures, your gun looks to be in the lower "very good" range condition wise. It's definitely not "fine."

Flayderman's is a general guide, and his books are usually a year or two behind, but the economy is somewhat soft now.

I don't know what you value your 32" lcd, desktop computer and gold ring at, but you can judge accordingly.

Last edited by gyvel; March 1, 2011 at 04:24 AM.
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Old March 1, 2011, 05:51 AM   #8
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Quote:
This gun appears to have the original frame design of the first model Remington-Beals
I do believe you're right. I overlooked that.
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Old March 1, 2011, 09:31 AM   #9
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This gun has some contradictions.

There were 3 'large frame' Remington revolvers made before and during the Civil War:
1) the 1860 Remington-Beals Army Model Revolver, about 1,900 made in 1861.
2) the 1861 Remington Old Model Army Revolver, about 9,000 made in 1862 & 1863,
3) the 1863 Remington New Model Army Revolver, about 122,000 made in 1863 through 1875.

1. The serial number indicates it is an 1861 Remington Old Model Army, the second model of the 3. Further, from the number it would be an early manufacture of that model.

2. The stamp on the barrel also indicates it is an 1861 Remington Old Model Army. This is the only model that stamp appeared on.

3. The frame appears, from the photo, to be from the 1860 Remington-Beals Army Model, which was the first of the 3. The frame covers the barrel threads at the breech end. Correction of this defect was the main reason for changing to the Old Model Army. It's possible that, being an early manufacture Old Model, it was built with remaining frame stock from the earlier Beals design. However, I've never seen reference to such a transition model. This contradicts 1. and 2. above.

4. The loading lever does not appear (from the photo) to have the relief allowing the cylinder pin to be pulled out with the lever stowed. This was a feature of the 1861 Old Model Army design only. This contradicts 1. and 2. and supports 3. above.

5. The hammer notches on the cylinder were indeed introduced late in the manufacture of the 1861 Old Model and appeared on all the 1863 New Model guns. It's possible, in fact likely, the cylinder is not the one that came with the gun originally. This contradicts 1. and 3. above.

It must be remembered that armories mixed and matched parts in repairing guns throughout the war. I don't find it unusual that this gun appears to have features that appeared on different models. We tend to want to believe that every antique is as originally manufactured, an assumption that is far too often an unwarranted simplification.

I have one of the Euroarms replicas of the 1860 Remington-Beals Army Model Revolvers. It is a contradiction in itself, as it has the cylinder hammer notches of the later 1861 and 1863 models and is stamped 'New Model Army' on the barrel. The OP's gun does not match the Euroarms replica as regards the barrel annotation.
(Please excuse the erroneous date in the photo caption)
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Old March 1, 2011, 12:32 PM   #10
waynes_world
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so i just got the gun, it does NOT have the stamp on the barrell. the serial number is a 4 digit number

it does have the number 88 on the bottomw of the barrel under the thing that you pack in the black powder thing. sorry for the confusion.
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Old March 1, 2011, 01:26 PM   #11
waynes_world
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ok idk, im confused, the markings on the bottom of the barrell is acually 889, the number on the bottom of the handle is 65xx

there is hardly any pitting which would mean? wasnt fired much? or cleaned properly?

the only way i can get the cylinder back in is without the hammer cocked, (idk if that normal or if im doing something wrong)

anymore info?

also i attached some more pics
Attached Images
File Type: jpg SNV30471.jpg (239.0 KB, 139 views)
File Type: jpg SNV30480.jpg (223.3 KB, 125 views)
File Type: jpg SNV30473.jpg (220.2 KB, 125 views)
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Old March 1, 2011, 08:06 PM   #12
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Well, I don't think its a Remington, since it would have an address if it was.
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Old March 2, 2011, 04:16 AM   #13
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I'm forced to agree with Winchester 73 on this. It appears to be very old, but such things can be faked, particularly if it is a 50 year old import.

The hammer cannot be at full cock when installing the cylinder due to the design of the locking mechanism, so yes, that is normal.
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Old March 2, 2011, 07:35 AM   #14
mykeal
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Quote:
Well, I don't think its a Remington, since it would have an address if it was.
Not necessarily.

The mixed configuration suggests it's a parts gun, put together in an armory from parts of different guns. Spare part barrels did not necessarily carry the factory address stamps as they were interchangeable across the different models. We often tend to assume antique guns have all the same parts they were manufactured with, but that's an oversimplification. Guns were tools, often repaired with spare parts or made up with parts from other guns. It's not unusual for parts from several guns needing repair to get mixed up and not stay together in a military armory.

On the other hand, the lack of a barrel stamp and the unique combination of parts from different models makes it look very much like the early Euroarms replica I have, and as suggested earlier by Hellgate. If a counterfeiter were to simply defarb the Euroarms gun it would be the same configuration as the OP's gun. The mis-match of serial numbers argues against that, and in favor ot the original parts gun theory, however. A counterfeiter would make the serial numbers match.

It's certainly an interesting gun.
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Old March 2, 2011, 09:11 AM   #15
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Myke,

Guys like Doc Hoy are always putting together mix-master repro guns. I do not think this gun is original either.
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Old March 2, 2011, 12:02 PM   #16
Hellgate
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At risk of buggering a screw head, you could pull a screw and see if it has standard or metric threads.
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Old March 2, 2011, 06:42 PM   #17
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Is it is or is it ain't?

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Old March 2, 2011, 07:43 PM   #18
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I'd say it is ain't. Something bugs me about the loading lever and the bottom of the frame. Of course, if you took a picture of the top of the barrel
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