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Old February 26, 2011, 10:28 PM   #26
Double Naught Spy
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Right.... and if you continued to read the rest of my post, Double Naught Spy, you would have read my caveat, admitting that it does not seem like the subject in question was being "dangerous" yet- just foolish,
Swamp Yankee, I did read your post. Did you? Now you say that you admitted that it did not seem like the subject in quesiton was being dangerous, but in your post, you said you weren't sure ...

Quote:
I'm not sure it rose to that level but it does sound like he was being foolish with a firearm and that is never a good thing.
The OP never said the guy was being dangerous. Given the OP's critical evaluation of the guy, I don't think the OP would have missed a chance to be critical of the guy's safety had he endangered the OP.
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Old February 26, 2011, 11:30 PM   #27
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Yeah I had a moment like that a few years back. Friend and I went to a 'shooters show' before he went off to the Navy.

anyway, we rented a Springfield Operator and had a good time with it. Then in comes this skinny kid, also clearly a gang-banger or a wannabe (complete witht the 'imma hustler' t-shirt) who rented a Raging Bull in .454

He tried to fire it as fast as he could. By the third round he was almost hiding under the bench in the stall, firing over the bench without even looking and missing every shot. Had he dropped the gun he could have blown my ankle off.

Needless to say I left after that.
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Old February 27, 2011, 01:12 AM   #28
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There's usually someone you'd rather not shoot with at ranges that are open to the public. There may have been someone else at the same range with the OP. From his perspective, he was upset because his concentration for some serious practice was broken by the OP freaking out because of the alleged gang banger.

I always suggest shooters familiarize themselves with a range's rules before they sign-up to shoot. Look at the rules two ways: are they too restrictive for the type of shooting environment that will make your comfortable, and are they restrictive enough for the same reason.

To avoid the machine gun wannabes, some ranges require a fixed amount of time between shots, three-seconds for example. This may be fine for you, it will keep out the riffraff; but, the rule doesn't work for those practicing a course of Rapid Fire that requires a 5-shot string in 10-seconds.
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Old February 27, 2011, 01:18 AM   #29
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Just one of the reason I joined a private hunt club. The range only membership is $110 per year. Anybody like that would be removed immediately, membership revoked, and never allowed back.
Actually, it wouldn't happen because every prospective member is well scrutinized by the owner. If you are not a responsible shooter, no membership.
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Old February 27, 2011, 04:03 AM   #30
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Yikes! It wasn't my intention to ignite this heated a discussion. Lots of replies, so I'll just summarize my response so as to not be up all night. I do appreciate all the (constructive) replies.

First thing, I'm almost 100% certain he was a gang-banger. Moved like one, talked like one, acted like one, dressed like one. Was pretty vulgar and snotty towards his girlfriend too, so he left a very bad impression with me. I live in a pretty nice upscale neighborhood, but it's surrounded on 3 sides by pure ghetto. The range happens to be in one of them. Grew up in Chicago so I'm pretty good at sniffing out gang-bangers.

Second, I could have gotten his brass but it would have done me no good. I have a .45, he was shooting 9mm. Otherwise, I would have!

Had he been alone, I might have considered striking up a conversation and being a "chameleon" and getting on his good side just enough to give him some pointers on at least basic safety issues with him being happy for the advice. But seeing as he was there with his girlfriend, it really wouldn't have gone over well, so I figured it was a waste of time. Who wants unsolicited advice about something like how to shoot a gun when they're trying to impress their girlfriend?

Nothing I saw him doing was technically unsafe, per se. But clearly he had no clue about guns, and having someone who thinks spraying the range wildly while being a short step away from losing his footing while shooting is on the very cusp of "Danger, Will Robinson, Danger!". I was there with a friend so when one of us was shooting the other was keeping an eye on him just in case. He came close to falling backwards at least once, and it's not a stretch by any imagination for someone falling down like that to have an accidental discharge.

The good thing is, he didn't stay long. When you're shooting 15 rounds in 5 seconds, you tend not to spend a lot of time at the range unless you have lots of money for ammo.

I agree with the people who essentially said "I wouldn't help a gang-banger learn how to shoot". Same reason I won't teach them martial arts or anything about knives or whatnot.

I wasn't fearful that he would start a gunfight. I think Double Naught Spy exaggerated what I was trying to say. All I meant was that you never know, when it comes to gang bangers, when they're gonna go berserk. While it would seem unlikely that he would get into a gun battle with a ranger master or anyone else, you just never know. People are crazy and stupid. I was once at an outdoor range in Indiana and a cop was there shooting. He got there shortly before our group was about to leave. Well, he had some sort of feed jam, and he starts grabbing at the slide with his finger still on the trigger, then turns the barrel to point inwards towards his pancreas (roughly) with his finger still on the trigger, while wrestling with the slide. I simply said to him "How about you point that away from yourself and keep it downrange till I leave?". Didn't feel like having to call the paramedics while tending to a cop with a self-inflicted gunshot wound.

Anyway, I personally don't mind if there are 10 other people spraying their rounds like machine guns. If there are thousands of rounds shooting off around me every minute, that's fine. Excessive noise is a stress, so that lets me work on handling ignoring it. Just another aspect of training. My only concern is that, as Swamp Yankee pointed out, being sloppy and foolish with a gun is never a good thing, and that leads to accidents. I prefer someone like that have his accident in the privacy of his own home, not on the range with me.

So that's why I asked. Had he been doing something outright dangerous, I'd have left and had the range officer handle it. But it gets trickier when the person is simply being foolish and while not perhaps dangerous outright, is putting himself on the edge of going into very dangerous territory. I'm so used to having a range to myself or to me and a group of trusted friends that when something like this comes up, I'm looking for pointers.
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Old February 27, 2011, 08:49 AM   #31
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Grew up in Chicago so I'm pretty good at sniffing out gang-bangers.
Gang banger or not, unless he is an escaped fugitive or has a warrant out for his arrest and if the proprietor has no problem with him being there, he still has as much a right to be there as you. And you still have the right to stay or leave. It is why this country remains great.
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Old February 27, 2011, 08:58 AM   #32
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Also, how can you tell if someone is a "gangbanger". You're making the claim that they are a criminal and belong to a continuous criminal enterprise. If a guy wears a cowboy hat with boots I don't assume they drive cattle, if someone wears a football jersey that doesn't mean they play football and if someone wears camo I don't assume they are in the military.

I'm not part of the culture, so I don't understand it, but some guys just like hip hop, rap etc. and they kind of dress the part. Baggy jeans, a wifebeater and a 'do rag don't make a guy a "gangbanger".
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Old February 27, 2011, 09:36 AM   #33
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I was at an indoor range with three inner city challenged individuals who would lean back,one hand in their pocket,hi-point turned side ways and just blast away.Out of two hundred rounds they might have hit their target 10 times.They did however hit the floor,ceiling,florescent light,and the target retraction bracket.They were asked to leave by the owner.
It's comforting to know that some youths of today shoot like this,it's also comforting to me to have been taught by my Tennessean WW1 vet Grand pappy,and the U.S.Army,who both stressed make the first shot count.
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Old February 27, 2011, 10:13 AM   #34
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You could have shot his target for him while he fired. That would give em a swoll head and he could show his girl his mad skill.
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Old February 27, 2011, 10:34 AM   #35
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DNS,

I guess i just have a poor grasp of the English language. I thought that:

it does not seem like = I'm not sure,

...where both imply an uncertainty on my part about the actions of the described subject, allowing for the fact that "does not seem like" asserts more confidence than "not sure", which suggests more overall ambivalence. So to continue this semantic debate, please posit your theory contradicting my hypothesis that these two phrases are substantially the same in meaning based on the currently applied context.

As to the inherent danger, you specifically say,
Quote:
The OP mentioned no issues with safety being compromised.
You're right, the OP does not explicitly say that subject was dangerous. In my initial reading, it seemed like the OP was being overly critical but upon further consideration I have decided not to equivocate any longer! No more "unsure", no more "does not seem likely". I will take a stand!

Quote:
Second, he was close to falling over backwards, and had he done so, I highly doubt he would have had either the presence of mind or even the common sense knowledge to take his finger outside of the trigger guard to avoid accidental discharge as he fell.
The subject in question was being fooling. Being foolish with a firearm is dangerous. Ergo, the "gang-banger" was being dangerous! [Flourish of horns and cheers follows here...]

I would argue that someone whose stance is so improper as to cause them to fall over with their trigger on the finger is being dangerous. Do you disagree? Is this a stance you practice? To be clear, the subject did not fall over. But the potential for him to fall over existed and he was utilizing a very poor stance that could not provide secure control of his firearm.

For hypothetical consideration: If you place a loaded gun on the kitchen table in front of a 5 year old and leave the room, is this dangerous? Even if the kid has not touched the gun before you left the room? (Answer: most certainly and without a doubt YES)

The point being that something or someone can go from foolish to dangerous and/or deadly in a split second which is why gun safety (or defensive driving or safety with tools, ladders, knives, swimming pools, etc.) is so important. From now I consider anyone being foolish with a gun to be considered dangerous.
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Old February 27, 2011, 11:38 AM   #36
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We as, as those with skill, could also strike a conversation and attempt to mentor said individual in both shooting and life he might need it? your call but it is an option!
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Old February 27, 2011, 11:52 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HK-Lance
Who wants unsolicited advice about something like how to shoot a gun when they're trying to impress their girlfriend?
Not many where I shoot, even if there's no girlfriend to impress.

I make it a general habit not to offer unsolicited advice. I shoot at an outdoors club pistol range (with a continuous bench, not indoors with partitions between firing points). So, other shooters will be members or their guests. I'll take the opportunity to introduce myself when the range is cold; but, I find a comment like, "Trying a new gun?" is a better ice breaker than, "What you're doing wrong is…" On the skeet field (where one shoots while the others watch), a frustrated shooter may ask, "Why'd I miss that one?"; but, he'd better be ready for four different answers.
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Old February 27, 2011, 01:49 PM   #38
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Gang banger or wanna be, makes no difference. Poor attitude, no respect for others, and no sense of responsibility! If it walks like a duck etc!!!
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Old February 27, 2011, 05:09 PM   #39
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Did the guy have the right to be there? Yes.

Could the OP determine he was a gang banger? Yes, having been around many gang bangers myself, I know that one can intelligently estimate whether someone is a gang banger or not. The OP failed to use his politically correct keyboard when making the post. Personally, I view that as a good thing. Political correctness is destroying this nation. If the OP said he was probably a gang banger; that is good enough for me. I will take it at face value.

Other than being a fool with his ammo, the guy was not being dangerous. His bullets were travelling in the right direction; they just rarely hit their target. I probably would have sat back, pretended that I was working on a firearm and watched the guy waste his money. And when he was done, I’d go back to shooting. That way I would be safer than I would be standing next to him. And, if I saw him getting dangerous, I could leave without embarrassing the gang banger in front of his woman.
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Old February 28, 2011, 03:59 PM   #40
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Could the OP determine he was a gang banger? Yes, having been around many gang bangers myself, I know that one can intelligently estimate whether someone is a gang banger or not.
...however, many youngsters dress the part, yet these same youths are not actually thugs or gang-bangers. Not even remotely. So "estimations" are just that...guesses.

In my experience, certain tattoos are more indicative of gang affiliation than are clothes...or shooting styles.
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Old February 28, 2011, 04:25 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by HK-Lance View Post
Later, after firing another 50 rounds (and missing about 47 of them ) I heard him bragging to his girlfriend "Wow, look, I got a bullseye!". Yeah, sorta like how even a broken watch is right twice a day. You shoot enough rounds in a particular direction, and eventually one of them is bound to hit the target!

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut.
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Old February 28, 2011, 05:37 PM   #42
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There have always been range slobs. Sometimes at supervised ranges and always at unsupervised ranges. There have always been low lifes. The "gang bang" and "Thug" culture is just the latest breed. Half of them are well brought up middle class white boys who are scared they won't fit in if they don't walk around like they're in an Emenem (Rap) video. I see the little kid from down the street who mowed lawns now 16 and walking down the street (the sidewalk's not gangsta) holdin' his junk and waddling like he has a rash. All outlandish behavior is a plea for attention and the fool at the range got yours, I try to ignore them. However, on a technical note, there's a good bit of metal in the carriages and arms and coardboard clips that hold the targets that is NOT meant to be shot. Take a look some time, they're full of dents. Here's a thought everybody, next time at the indoor range check the wall BEHIND you for holes.
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Old February 28, 2011, 06:47 PM   #43
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After further explanation by the OP....

... seems to me that, hip-hop dude or true gangbanger, if the guy was discourteous and rude to the woman he brought with him, that would be reason enough for me to NOT teach him to shoot better.

Although I have met a lot of non-gangbanger men who were complete jerks toward women.

Wouldn't give those guys any help, or the time of day, either.
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Old February 28, 2011, 07:01 PM   #44
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Gang banger or wanna be, makes no difference. Poor attitude, no respect for others, and no sense of responsibility! If it walks like a duck etc!!!
You must have posted in the wrong thread. The person in question appeared to have a fine attitude. He was having a good time. No respect for others? No sense of responsibility? How could you determine this from the descriptions.

If you knew anything about gangbangers, you would know they have a tremendous amount of respect for others that they respect and they do have responsibility.

Quote:
Anyway, I personally don't mind if there are 10 other people spraying their rounds like machine guns. If there are thousands of rounds shooting off around me every minute, that's fine. Excessive noise is a stress, so that lets me work on handling ignoring it. Just another aspect of training. My only concern is that, as Swamp Yankee pointed out, being sloppy and foolish with a gun is never a good thing, and that leads to accidents. I prefer someone like that have his accident in the privacy of his own home, not on the range with me.
Strangely, people complain about there being too much noise at the gun range when they are shooting. I never figured that out either. As for being sloppy and foolish not being a good thing, the alledged gangbanger was safer than your Indiana cop who should have had fairly extensive training at some point, even if he wasn't currently proficient.

Quote:
The subject in question was being fooling. Being foolish with a firearm is dangerous. Ergo, the "gang-banger" was being dangerous!
The person who was there stated that he did nothing unsafe. How can you argue with that?

So just how was the guy being foolish?

He wasn't a great shot, but his shooting wasn't unsafe.

If you want to talk about being unsafe, check out the guy in the videos of post #34. He repeatedly violates all of the safety rules....and he wrote them.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...r+safety+rules
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Old March 1, 2011, 01:16 AM   #45
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Skadoosh wrote:

Quote:
Gang banger or not, unless he is an escaped fugitive or has a warrant out for his arrest and if the proprietor has no problem with him being there, he still has as much a right to be there as you. And you still have the right to stay or leave. It is why this country remains great.
I have no idea why you're constantly referring to his "right" to be there. I never mentioned anything about rights, or who has more right to be there, or any such thing. My original post has nothing to do with whether he has a "right" to be at the range. I simply asked for others' insight on how they might handle such a situation, since it fell into a gray area, ie someone not necessarily doing something outright dangerous, but acting in a manner that puts him on the borderline of doing so.

Quote:
Strangely, people complain about there being too much noise at the gun range when they are shooting. I never figured that out either. As for being sloppy and foolish not being a good thing, the alledged gangbanger was safer than your Indiana cop who should have had fairly extensive training at some point, even if he wasn't currently proficient.
So very true. Disturbing, isn't it, that I ran into a cop that had less gun safety skills than some young gangebanger type.
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Old March 1, 2011, 01:19 AM   #46
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JCSturgeon wrote:

Quote:
I'm not part of the culture, so I don't understand it, but some guys just like hip hop, rap etc. and they kind of dress the part. Baggy jeans, a wifebeater and a 'do rag don't make a guy a "gangbanger".
Again, I never said he wore baggy pants or wore a wifebeater or whatever. You're making assumptions, and assuming I'm simply guessing based on his image. When you're living around gangbangers, you can spot them a mile away, and you can almost always tell when someone is just dressing the part as opposed to being an actual gang member. Just like how seasoned cops can usually tell if someone is up to no good, lying, etc.
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Old March 1, 2011, 01:21 AM   #47
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Teeroux wrote:

Quote:
You could have shot his target for him while he fired. That would give em a swoll head and he could show his girl his mad skill.
ROTFLMAO!!! I never thought of that!

Hell, if I hadn't been on the opposite side of the range, that might actually have worked! LOL!
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Old March 1, 2011, 01:29 AM   #48
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Swamp Yankee wrote:

Quote:
I would argue that someone whose stance is so improper as to cause them to fall over with their trigger on the finger is being dangerous. Do you disagree? Is this a stance you practice? To be clear, the subject did not fall over. But the potential for him to fall over existed and he was utilizing a very poor stance that could not provide secure control of his firearm.

For hypothetical consideration: If you place a loaded gun on the kitchen table in front of a 5 year old and leave the room, is this dangerous? Even if the kid has not touched the gun before you left the room? (Answer: most certainly and without a doubt YES)

The point being that something or someone can go from foolish to dangerous and/or deadly in a split second which is why gun safety (or defensive driving or safety with tools, ladders, knives, swimming pools, etc.) is so important. From now I consider anyone being foolish with a gun to be considered dangerous.
I think you understand what I'm getting at perfectly. It's not that he was doing anything immediately dangerous, ie he was not pointing his gun at other shooters or trying to spin it on his finger like a cowboy or anything. He was just being a moron, and straddling that fine line where all it takes to win a Darwin Award is a tiny little misstep. Which does make it a dangerous or at least very potentially dangerous situation.

Which is why I asked for some feedback. It seemed that if I went to the range officer, what could I say? "Some fool is missing his target and almost fell over"? Not sure the complaint would seem very serious. And confronting the gangbanger won't likely get anywhere either. "Do you mind learning how to shoot and be careful not to fall on your ass and shoot me accidentally?". You see where I'm going with this. Others can't.
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Old March 1, 2011, 01:46 AM   #49
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Wow, lots of replies to make!

Double Naught Spy wrote:

Quote:
You must have posted in the wrong thread. The person in question appeared to have a fine attitude. He was having a good time. No respect for others? No sense of responsibility? How could you determine this from the descriptions.
Well, as far as him calling his girlfriend a "bitch" and treating her like dirt, I'd say that's definitely not respectable. Considering there were other women present, that makes him doubly a boor. And I'd say the fact that he clearly made no attempt to even look up basic safety protocols on the internet (or if he did, chose to ignore them), much less take a class, but instead blast away like he has a new toy and almost ended up falling over (and possibly shooting someone), I'd say that's very irresponsible.

I had a new shooter with me, and I stood next to him, telling him how to stand, how to aim, here's how you load the gun safely, keep that barrel pointed downrange at all times, etc. Had him clean up after himself too. The gangbanger left used targets on the firing lane, he didn't even bother to dump his garbage after he was done. Rude and obnoxious.

Quote:
If you knew anything about gangbangers, you would know they have a tremendous amount of respect for others that they respect and they do have responsibility.
I can count on my hand how many gangbangers I've come across that have respect for anyone. Minus a thumb and forefinger.

BTW...ooops! I mis-attributed this quote to Skadoosh:

Quote:
Strangely, people complain about there being too much noise at the gun range when they are shooting. I never figured that out either. As for being sloppy and foolish not being a good thing, the alledged gangbanger was safer than your Indiana cop who should have had fairly extensive training at some point, even if he wasn't currently proficient.
Sorry, that was from Double Naught Spy. And very true. Sadly.

Quote:
The person who was there stated that he did nothing unsafe. How can you argue with that?

So just how was the guy being foolish?

He wasn't a great shot, but his shooting wasn't unsafe.
I never meant that he was being safe though. I only mentioned that he did not do something immediately dangerous, ie point his gun at someone, etc. But what he was doing was clearly dangerous, or very close to being dangerous. He tipped backwards at least twice, then re-gained his balance. Had he fallen over, he was far too inexperienced to know to take his finger outside the trigger guard. There was a huge potential that he could have fallen over, since he came so close to doing so. And had he done so, the potential for him shooting whoever was next to him was pretty significant. So yeah, it was at the very least borderline dangerous, if not outright dangerous.
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Old March 1, 2011, 02:13 AM   #50
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If someone is unsafe, or breaking range rules, then by all means notify the rangemaster.

Other than that, if their race/creed/color/religion/style of dress/whatever bothers you, then take a break or come back another time.
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