The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The North Corral > Lock and Load: Live Fire Exercises

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old February 26, 2011, 03:34 AM   #1
HK-Lance
Member
 
Join Date: January 13, 2011
Posts: 28
Pretty disturbing range experience

Took my new HK USP .45 to the range the other day to break her in. I ended up getting there later than I had hoped, as I like to go early when fewer people are there (especially because the local range is sorta small).

A short while later, in walks this degenerate who was clearly a gang-banger, all of 21 years old, if that (I assume he had to be, to get a handgun). He stands there in his firing lane, in a sort-of isosceles triangle, only with his feet way too close and leaning continuously further backwards as he blows off an entire magazine of 9mm in rapid succession. Bang-bang-bang-bang-bang. I guess he thought it was a machine gun. I counted 15 shots. Not a single one of them hit his target. The target was 10' away.

I really don't like being at the range when idiots like that walk in. First of all, he clearly had no shooting skills and obviously got his "training" from watching poorly choreographed movies. Second, he was close to falling over backwards, and had he done so, I highly doubt he would have had either the presence of mind or even the common sense knowledge to take his finger outside of the trigger guard to avoid accidental discharge as he fell.

Later, after firing another 50 rounds (and missing about 47 of them ) I heard him bragging to his girlfriend "Wow, look, I got a bullseye!". Yeah, sorta like how even a broken watch is right twice a day. You shoot enough rounds in a particular direction, and eventually one of them is bound to hit the target!

Has anyone else encountered situations like this? What's the best way to deal with it? Leave? Contact the range master? God forbid he's asked to leave and decide to get into a gun battle. He seemed dumb enough to do just that.

Which is why I prefer being off to the left side of the range, being right handed and he being right handed. Should it come down to such a situation, I have the advantage. But good lord, what a thing to have to consider, huh?
HK-Lance is offline  
Old February 26, 2011, 07:24 AM   #2
Skadoosh
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 13, 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,775
Quote:
I really don't like being at the range when idiots like that walk in.
And that's why you're free to leave. He has as much a right to be there as you.
__________________
NRA Life Member (2003)
USN Retired
I think that one of the notions common to the anti-gunner is the idea that being a victim is 'noble'; as if it is better to be noble in your suffering than disruptive in your own defense.
Skadoosh is offline  
Old February 26, 2011, 07:50 AM   #3
Yankee Doodle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2004
Location: NY state
Posts: 573
If he is doing something that you feel is unsafe, discuss it quietly with the rangemaster.
If all he is doing is burning copious quantities of powder, all you can do is either put up with it, or leave.
If this is a public range, the rangemaster enforces the rules.
__________________
God Bless America
Y.D.
Yankee Doodle is offline  
Old February 26, 2011, 08:28 AM   #4
SwampYankee
Registration in progress
 
Join Date: November 1, 2008
Location: I can be found on a number of other forums.
Posts: 1,333
Quote:
He has as much a right to be there as you.
Until his behavior compromises the safety of everyone else. I'm not sure it rose to that level but it does sound like he was being foolish with a firearm and that is never a good thing. My range does not allow rapid fire, no more than one shot per second. On those grounds alone he would have deserved a scolding to from the RO.
SwampYankee is offline  
Old February 26, 2011, 08:34 AM   #5
Sport45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 25, 1999
Location: Too close to Houston
Posts: 4,068
Did you at least get the brass?
__________________
Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.
Sport45 is offline  
Old February 26, 2011, 09:01 AM   #6
jeepstrapped
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 22, 2009
Location: SD
Posts: 141
Did you offer any help on how to correctly fire a handgun? Or tips on how to get a better grouping?

Then again, I'm from a small western-midwestern town, less than 20,000 people. Maybe it's not a thing to do in more heavily populated areas.
jeepstrapped is offline  
Old February 26, 2011, 10:40 AM   #7
C Philip
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 9, 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 784
Quote:
Did you offer any help on how to correctly fire a handgun? Or tips on how to get a better grouping?
I would be hesitant to do that; injuring the pride of a gang-banger who is trying to show off to his girlfriend is asking for an unpleasant situation. He is free to waste all the ammo he wants as long as he does so safely. Maybe talk to the range master, if there is one, but standing in a bad stance and missing the target isn't dangerous in and of itself, unless his shots were way over the berm or into the ceiling or something.
C Philip is offline  
Old February 26, 2011, 10:51 AM   #8
overkill0084
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 7, 2010
Location: Northern, UT
Posts: 1,162
Look at the bright side, if this guy really is a gang member (as opposed to a wannabe), incompetence is a good thing.
__________________
Cheers,
Greg
“At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child – miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied, demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless. Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats.” — P.J. O’Rourke
overkill0084 is offline  
Old February 26, 2011, 11:20 AM   #9
mrgoodwrench76
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 4, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 487
"Did you offer any help on how to correctly fire a handgun? Or tips on how to get a better grouping?"

Help the gangbanger shoot better?? I'll pass.
__________________
God Bless America!!
mrgoodwrench76 is offline  
Old February 26, 2011, 11:43 AM   #10
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,426
Quote:
He has as much a right to be there as you.
Quote:
Until his behavior compromises the safety of everyone else.
Yes, but that rule goes for everyone as well as well. The OP mentioned no issues with safety being compromised. So, the guy had as much right to be there as the OP.

The OP had obvious disdain for the shooter who apparently was underskilled and inexperienced, was too afraid to say anything to the guy out of fear of the guy getting mad and causing a gun battle, and yet was not bothered enough to leave the range out of fear for his safety from a range "accident" by this other shooter or the shooter getting upset at something and trying to shoot people.

Think about it. If you truly believe as the OP stated that he thought the guy was such that he would start a gun fight if challenged on a rule, then why the OP didn't pack up and leave immediately is unbelieveable. If you feel the need to be working out a firing solution against another shooter on a gun range because you feel that shooter may try to do harm to you, then you need to be leaving quickly.

Quote:
Which is why I prefer being off to the left side of the range, being right handed and he being right handed. Should it come down to such a situation, I have the advantage.
Actually, maybe not. If you are to the left then you have to make an outside pivot. People find it much easier to pivot to the inside.

Even if you think the side you are on gives you an advantage, if you get in a confrontation with the guy, that advantage will be nullified because more than likely, you will be face each other already.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old February 26, 2011, 12:13 PM   #11
ROGER4314
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 17, 2009
Location: East Houston
Posts: 257
Thugs that can't hit a barn door........that's a very good thing!

Flash
ROGER4314 is offline  
Old February 26, 2011, 12:53 PM   #12
Edward429451
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2000
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Posts: 9,494
I'd be thinkin if I could get his brass too...

That guy was no threat, he was there to show off to his G-friend, don't be paranoid.
Edward429451 is offline  
Old February 26, 2011, 01:34 PM   #13
jmortimer
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2010
Location: South West Riverside County California
Posts: 2,763
Whether at a range or a gun store, I often see people that I would like to prevent from owning firearms but then they probably don't want me to own a firearm either. I'm a dumpy middle-aged white guy and statistically a target for those I want to supress but as they say, can't we all just get along.
jmortimer is offline  
Old February 26, 2011, 03:05 PM   #14
LordTio3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 5, 2010
Location: Bloomington, Indiana
Posts: 850
Quote:
Actually, maybe not. If you are to the left then you have to make an outside pivot. People find it much easier to pivot to the inside.

Even if you think the side you are on gives you an advantage, if you get in a confrontation with the guy, that advantage will be nullified because more than likely, you will be face each other already.
I believe the advantage he was speaking of was that he could use the lane stall walls as cover and still shoot with his outside hand if he is to the man's left. A scenario that is a bit ridiculous. If you feel that someone may be a threat; you LEAVE.

If you think he was being sloppy, then so what? If you think he was being unsafe, tell the range officer. If you think he'd be open to criticism, then talk to him during a ceasefire. Otherwise, utilize your ability to Get Out and leave it be.

This whole thread sounds a little high and mighty.

~LT
__________________
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ- Greek:"Come and take them..." Meaning: Here we peaceably stand as armed and free men, willing to defend that peace, and ready to make war upon anyone who threatens that freedom.
LordTio3 is offline  
Old February 26, 2011, 03:10 PM   #15
jimbob86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 6,778
Quote:
Look at the bright side, if this guy really is a gang member (as opposed to a wannabe), incompetence is a good thing.
Quote:
Thugs that can't hit a barn door........that's a very good thing!
I disagree. Too many innocent people hit by stray bullets. Spray and pray puts the public (me) in danger.
__________________
TheGolden Rule of Tool Use: "If you don't know what you are doing, DON'T."

http://nefirearm.com/
jimbob86 is offline  
Old February 26, 2011, 03:25 PM   #16
chasep255
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 21, 2009
Location: NJ :(
Posts: 688
Quote:
He has as much a right to be there as you.
No he clearly has no right to be there if he was doing that.
__________________
I have mostly non-sporting firearms
In NJ, technically speaking, ALL guns are illegal
Also in my state there is such thing as a Class III BB gun :barf:
Happy to say that despite the NJ AWB I still manage to make my guns look scary
chasep255 is offline  
Old February 26, 2011, 03:27 PM   #17
chasep255
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 21, 2009
Location: NJ :(
Posts: 688
Also BTW the other day I was at my local public range and I looked up and noticed some bullet holes in the ceiling. Looks like some idiots have shot straight up.
__________________
I have mostly non-sporting firearms
In NJ, technically speaking, ALL guns are illegal
Also in my state there is such thing as a Class III BB gun :barf:
Happy to say that despite the NJ AWB I still manage to make my guns look scary
chasep255 is offline  
Old February 26, 2011, 03:40 PM   #18
jimbob86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 6,778
Quote:
No he clearly has no right to be there if he was doing that.
Doing what exactly? Seems like the only thing the OP stated he did was miss the target rapidly. That and he was young ....... The OP stated he was a "degenerate" and "clearly a gang-banger"......... assumptions.

The young man had every bit as much right to be there as a cratchety old man. Probably had more need of practice, too.
__________________
TheGolden Rule of Tool Use: "If you don't know what you are doing, DON'T."

http://nefirearm.com/
jimbob86 is offline  
Old February 26, 2011, 04:29 PM   #19
Sarge
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 12, 2002
Location: MO
Posts: 4,911
Bitter with the sweet, Constantine.

I used to shoot on unsupervised, 'free' Conservation Dept. ranges occasionally. I saw some pretty comical stuff, stupid stuff and scary stuff. Fortunately, those last two categories were rare. I also had opportunities to help people with common firearm, sighting-in and shooting problems. I left at least a few shooters better off than when they came- and that feels pretty darn good.

Everything costs something, Amigo. It might be worth your effort and expense to find some private land with a safe place to shoot.
__________________
I'm inclined to think if a man hasn't gotten his point across in 4912 attempts, 4913 probably isn't going to do it.
Sarge is offline  
Old February 26, 2011, 04:39 PM   #20
g.willikers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2008
Posts: 5,139
At the rate he was using up ammo, just take a lunch break.
By the time you are finished, so will he.
And then you can go about your business and collect his brass.
Unless, he came with twelve guns.
Then you leave.
g.willikers is offline  
Old February 26, 2011, 04:47 PM   #21
huntinaz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 21, 2010
Location: az
Posts: 999
Quote:
Did you at least get the brass?
My thoughts exactly.
__________________
"Once you quit hearing sir and ma'am, the rest is soon to follow." - Cormack McCarthy
"Feed me, or feed me to something. I just want to be part of the food chain." -Al Bundy
huntinaz is offline  
Old February 26, 2011, 05:18 PM   #22
SwampYankee
Registration in progress
 
Join Date: November 1, 2008
Location: I can be found on a number of other forums.
Posts: 1,333
Quote:
Quote:
Until his behavior compromises the safety of everyone else.
Quote:
Yes, but that rule goes for everyone as well as well. The OP mentioned no issues with safety being compromised. So, the guy had as much right to be there as the OP.
Right.... and if you continued to read the rest of my post, Double Naught Spy, you would have read my caveat, admitting that it does not seem like the subject in question was being "dangerous" yet- just foolish,

Quote:
I'm not sure it rose to that level but it does sound like he was being foolish with a firearm and that is never a good thing. My range does not allow rapid fire, no more than one shot per second. On those grounds alone he would have deserved a scolding to from the RO.
How is this different from your comment?

With that said, foolish people with guns are generally dangerous as a rule.
SwampYankee is offline  
Old February 26, 2011, 07:08 PM   #23
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
I wasn't there...

... so I don't know if the OP had other reasons to decide the shooter was a degenerate and a gang-banger.

However, I will say that most of the "are they criminals?" types I've encountered do NOT bring their girlfriends along; they usually come in packs. Dressing the part, might just be some hip-hop kid.

In fact, the last few I ran into, dressed like that, were college kids, and very polite. They just looked ratty, but for some younger people, that's the way they dress.

Me, I was a metal-head at that age, except when I dressed preppy. 50/50 odds I'd have been in either some sort of black tour shirt over torn jeans, or else in a button-down over khakis. Either way, I was a college kid, working to pay my way through school, and heading for AOCS after graduation. Some people probably saw me on one day and thought I'd have a long career serving slushies at 7-11; others probably saw me on other days and assumed I was a spoiled yuppie. Either way, they'd have been off.

So, maybe the OP had other reasons to think this was some degenerate gang-banger. OP could have been right.

But the girlfriend thing makes me think he was probably just a young guy who didn't know how to shoot, and didn't know range etiquette.

I've had a few of those guys approach me when I'm shooting. I'm not a superstar, but I'm good at keeping tight groups at reasonable ranges, at a reasonable pace. I've had some of those guys ask for tips; courtesy goes a long way with me. I usually offer it until somebody gives me reason not to, and I respond to courtesy with courtesy.

So when they've asked, I've helped. By helping them, I helped create a safer situation for myself - less worry about ricochets, or poor weapon control if somebody manages to fall over.

On the few occasions where guys have really been questionable, I've either had a discussion with an RO, or I've left the range.
MLeake is offline  
Old February 26, 2011, 07:45 PM   #24
Baba Louie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 23, 2001
Posts: 1,496
Quote:
What's the best way to deal with it?
Stand back and keep a minds eye toward your safety, smile at youthful antics, help out if asked maybe, but watch youngsters muzzle fo'shizzle, yo?

Once they leave, go back to shooting. Smiling at youthful antics as well as old mens antics. It's all good.
__________________
A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." - George Washington, January 8, 1790, First State of the Union Address
Baba Louie is offline  
Old February 26, 2011, 09:53 PM   #25
sserdlihc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2008
Location: S.C.
Posts: 1,434
The range I go to doesn't have a range officer. So when someone shows up and starts acting in a manner that I don't care for, I just pack up and leave.
__________________
Familiarity breeds contempt, while rarity wins admiration. Aupleius
If someone doesn't like you, that's their problem! Milton Childress
sserdlihc is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:20 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.20768 seconds with 7 queries